Sale agreed on our house - Attic conversion holding things up

maynooth_rules · 28-06-2018 1:02pm #1

Hi.
We are sale agreed on our house. The previous owners Converted the attic 9 years ago. In our ad we advertised it as storage room.
While we and the couple who are buying it are happy, they are worried about drawing down the mortgage. They feel the bank may not give the mortgage. Their surveyor was happy but they've asked about certs of compliance. We have no literature for the conversion and anyone I've asked about the cert are not comfortable giving it as it's not their own work.
We are stuck and I don't know how to proceed at this stage.
The conversion has 1 velux window to the rear and one to the front. I'm told the one to the front could cause issues.
Any advice would be gratefully appreciated here.

dapop · 28-06-2018 1:33pm

Is it simply the purchaser who is concerned or has their solicitor raised concerns?

If their solicitor is happy that should be sufficient.

Same applies to the lender - if the conversion is an issue with the lender address it then.

Ray Palmer · 28-06-2018 2:28pm

The velux window in the front would have required planning permission. There is no real risk if it can be proved it was done at least 9 years ago.
Sounds like your solicitor and surveyor when you purchased the house let you down. They should have pointed this out back then and got the vendors to sort it out.
There really isn't a certificate of compliance unless it is being sold as a habitable room. As you said it isn't then it doesn't apply.

dubstepper · 28-06-2018 4:41pm

Ray Palmer wrote: »

There really isn't a certificate of compliance unless it is being sold as a habitable room. As you said it isn't then it doesn't apply.

This is not what we were told in a similar situation. We needed it as structural changes had been made to the property, so your purchaser will require compliance documents certifying planning exemption and also compliance with building regulations. Not sure how it stacks with the velux.

maynooth_rules · 29-06-2018 6:45am

Ray Palmer wrote: »

The velux window in the front would have required planning permission. There is no real risk if it can be proved it was done at least 9 years ago.
Sounds like your solicitor and surveyor when you purchased the house let you down. They should have pointed this out back then and got the vendors to sort it out.
There really isn't a certificate of compliance unless it is being sold as a habitable room. As you said it isn't then it doesn't apply.

It was a bank sale when we purchased which basically meant it was buy as seen.

4ensic15 · 29-06-2018 8:01am

maynooth_rules wrote: »

It was a bank sale when we purchased which basically meant it was buy as seen.

Even at that, you should have been advised of the issues and how they might be sorted out. You may be able to get a statutory declaration that the velux has been there for at least 7 years and make it a special condition in your contract for sale that the purchaser accepts it as is.

jimmycrackcorm · 29-06-2018 10:23am

maynooth_rules wrote:

It was a bank sale when we purchased which basically meant it was buy as seen.

And the same applies to potential purchasers. It will depend on their solicitor and a possible condition of the purchasers mortgage contract.

Claw Hammer · 29-06-2018 11:53am

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

And the same applies to potential purchasers. It will depend on their solicitor and a possible condition of the purchasers mortgage contract.

The Law Society standard contract requires the vendor to state that the property in question complies with planning permission. If this has to be modified, because the property does not have planning permission either for its construction or for alterations it is quite possible that a bank would refuse a mortgage. It is not like selling a second-hand car.

Mark1916 · 29-06-2018 12:38pm

Having the same issue on a house we’re sale agreed on, Surveyors report flagged some sagging of the roof and this could be directly related to the converted attic! The attic was done in 2005 with no planning but has an architects cert for the work

nuac · 29-06-2018 12:44pm

4ensic15 wrote: »

Even at that, you should have been advised of the issues and how they might be sorted out. You may be able to get a statutory declaration that the velux has been there for at least 7 years and make it a special condition in your contract for sale that the purchaser accepts it as is.

The seven years refers to the time limit for a prosecution by the planning authority. The passage of the seven years does not validate any unauthorised development

maynooth_rules · 29-06-2018 12:46pm

Mark1916 wrote: »

Having the same issue on a house we’re sale agreed on, Surveyors report flagged some sagging of the roof and this could be directly related to the converted attic! The attic was done in 2005 with no planning but has an architects cert for the work

Was the architect report from the time it was done or at a later stage.
Basically our buyers are happy to preceded and want to quickly. They are worried about drawing down the mortgage. All I want is to get something that says it's a safe structure. Is an architect the best person to go for that?

Mark1916 · 29-06-2018 12:49pm

maynooth_rules wrote: »

Was the architect report from the time it was done or at a later stage.
Basically our buyers are happy to preceded and want to quickly. They are worried about drawing down the mortgage. All I want is to get something that says it's a safe structure. Is an architect the best person to go for that?

It’s the current Surveyors report (we’re buying the house) you’ll need to get a certificate from the architect saying it conforms to building regs! But if they carry out a Surveyors report like mine their solicitor may not let them sign contracts if there’s a hint of any structural instability!

maynooth_rules · 29-06-2018 1:14pm

Mark1916 wrote: »

It’s the current Surveyors report (we’re buying the house) you’ll need to get a certificate from the architect saying it conforms to building regs! But if they carry out a Surveyors report like mine their solicitor may not let them sign contracts if there’s a hint of any structural instability!

There surveyor highlighted that no steel bee s were used. But according to our estate agent he will still sign off on the house. He has asked for cert of compliance though. To get that we may have to go through planning. We obviously don't want to do that, nor do the other couple, due to time constraints. Basically I want something to say the conversion is safe, and then give them the option of planning permission retention in the future if they so wish.

Claw Hammer · 29-06-2018 1:19pm

maynooth_rules wrote: »

There surveyor highlighted that no steel bee s were used. But according to our estate agent he will still sign off on the house. He has asked for cert of compliance though. To get that we may have to go through planning. We obviously don't want to do that, nor do the other couple, due to time constraints. Basically I want something to say the conversion is safe, and then give them the option of planning permission retention in the future if they so wish.

Is their solicitor aware of the issues at this stage? They might be gullible first time buyers but might have a good solicitor.

maynooth_rules · 29-06-2018 1:22pm

Claw Hammer wrote: »

Is their solicitor aware of the issues at this stage? They might be gullible first time buyers but might have a good solicitor.

They are first time buyers. I imagine their solicitor will know from the copy of the surveyors report. Didn't think we would have this much stress over essential storage space in the attic which we advertised as such.

Claw Hammer · 29-06-2018 1:28pm

Your attic was converted illegally. You have a velux window which was installed without planning permission, which is a criminal offence. You have had 3 years to sort this out before now and didn't bother. Not every purchaser will tolerate such a situation and many solicitors will be anxious to protect their clients from the consequences of an illegal conversion. Many banks will not accept the qualified certificates of title, particularly where planning permission is concerned. Architects are, understandably, quite reluctant to certify something that they were not involved with at the time the work was done. In some cases their professional indemnity insurance won't allow it.

Optimus Prime · 29-06-2018 1:34pm

is it the velux window in the front that is causing the issue? without that planning permission wouldnt be required? I didnt get planning for my attic conversion but all the windows are in the back.

mick121 · 29-06-2018 1:44pm

Just block up the velux

Lumen · 29-06-2018 3:48pm

maynooth_rules wrote: »

Didn't think we would have this much stress over essential storage space in the attic which we advertised as such.

If it's just "essential storage" then why does it have two sets of velux windows?

My "essential storage" is a windowless room with a light bulb hanging from the ceiling.

Claw Hammer · 29-06-2018 3:51pm

"Storage" when it is being sold. Wink. Wink. A Bedroom normally. Also, a firetrap.

Metric Tensor · 29-06-2018 4:01pm

Lads. There's two different "compliances" in question here:

1. Planning compliance. The front window doesn't comply with the relevant planning permission and is unauthorised. In the normal course of events the vendor applies for retention and the professional they employ for that purpose certifies compliance with planning when the retention permission is obtained. It is correct that after 7 years (or in some cases 12) the local authority cannot force the owner to remove the offending velux but it is still unauthorised.

2. Compliance with the Building Regulations which means compliance with ALL aspects of the building regulations including fire safety, structural safety, appropriate access sizes, insulation levels, etc. The architect and or structural engineer who oversaw the conversion would usually provide an opinion on compliance with the buildings regulations. Two opinions may be required because most architects would not have sufficient structural engineering qualifications to sign off on the structural changes.

Finally: No estate agent would ever sign of on either of the above so there is some sort of miscommunication if anyone expects an estate agent to act as anything other than an intermediary in such circumstances.

AlanG · 29-06-2018 4:20pm

as mentioned above the certification required for solicitors to comply with law society guidelines is not the same as a building regulation one. I had this done recently and some engineers tried to convince me I needed to pay up to 7000 for the service. It was not that they were trying to rip me off but they were just ignorant of the new regulations. People get these letters all the time for about 300-500. it just says that the architect cannot see anything against regulations (on the surface, it is not a guarantee that it meets regulations - which will cost about 5-7000). Most solicitors should be able to recommend an architect that will fill out the form.

In the OP case the building does not comply with regulations so their best bet may be to apply for retention planning. It may be refused as velux to the front are very rare.

Claw Hammer · 29-06-2018 4:27pm

It appears that this conversion was carried out by a person who: –
1. Did not seek or obtain planning permission
2. Did not pay the repayments on their mortgage to the bank.
3. Did not put in steel supports.
The chances of this being compliant with regulations are slim to none.
Most likely it is structurally unsound and is a fire hazard.

Metric Tensor · 29-06-2018 5:15pm

AlanG wrote: »

the architect cannot see anything against regulations

The problem in this case is that the architect WILL see something against the regulations. I guarantee you the previous owner did not upgrade all the doors accessing the corridors on the other two floors with fire doors as per regulations.

This is apparent to the naked eye.

drunkmonkey · 29-06-2018 5:27pm

Are you panacking here a bit, go for retention and add 50k to the asking price or tell them buy it as is or it's been taken off the market and will be relisted at a higher price in a few months, up to them.

Claw Hammer · 29-06-2018 5:41pm

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Are you panacking here a bit, go for retention and add 50k to the asking price or tell them buy it as is or it's been taken off the market and will be relisted at a higher price in a few months, up to them.

The OP's purchasers want to buy as seen. The problem is that their solicitor or bank may not allow it. It is not a second-hand car.

drunkmonkey · 29-06-2018 7:10pm

Claw Hammer wrote: »

The OP's purchasers want to buy as seen. The problem is that their solicitor or bank may not allow it. It is not a second-hand car.

I understand that, hence get it ok'd and relist it at a higher price as it now has an extra room. I'd make contact with the local bank valuer and get them to have a look and see what they say. If they can find out what bank the buyer is with it should be easy get them out for a look.
If the solicitor is worth their salt they won't let them buy as is without covering themselves.

4ensic15 · 29-06-2018 8:51pm

drunkmonkey wrote: »

I understand that, hence get it ok'd .

How much do you think that would cost and how long would it take?

drunkmonkey · 29-06-2018 10:04pm

4ensic15 wrote: »

How much do you think that would cost and how long would it take?

Not 100% but I didn't bother going for planning convertintg the attic as one of the rooms wouldn't have met height regulations, we done it by the book otherwise, proper structural plans, reinforced the whole house with steel beams all around etc. Architect said it woud be easier just do it that way and go for retention if we ever want to sell, think he said it might cost about 1k. Was something around that figure.

I don't know what bank your with but ask them who the local valuer is, you might get lucky and it's a one stop shop so they could help with the retneton. Stay local with what ever your doing as they may have a lot more history than you know for example the velux could already be signed off but the local area manager it could be in the notes of the plans somewhere, the locals lads will know where to look. Even having a word with the estate agent you bought it from might be worth a call for advice.

4ensic15 · 29-06-2018 10:23pm

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Not 100% but I didn't bother going for planning convertintg the attic as one of the rooms wouldn't have met height regulations, we done it by the book otherwise, proper structural plans, reinforced the whole house with steel beams all around etc. Architect said it woud be easier just do it that way and go for retention if we ever want to sell, think he said it might cost about 1k. Was something around that figure.

I don't know what bank your with but ask them who the local valuer is, you might get lucky and it's a one stop shop so they could help with the retneton. Stay local with what ever your doing as they may have a lot more history than you know for example the velux could already be signed off but the local area manager it could be in the notes of the plans somewhere, the locals lads will know where to look. Even having a word with the estate agent you bought it from might be worth a call for advice.

Planning permission is given by local authorities, not banks. The agent who sold it was acting on behalf of a bank who contracted out of any liability. There is zero channce of any plans, notes or sign off turning up. This is the adult world.

irishgirl19 · 29-06-2018 10:39pm

My parents tried to sell their house years ago. Was sale agreed until surveyor pointed out there was no steel supports and was very dangerous. Said if we got heavy snow then roof could've come in (not sure this is true or not). Anyway the sale fell through and mam and dad got the attic sorted.
They weren't aware of the steel bolt thing because builder was a cowboy but they found out too late

drunkmonkey · 29-06-2018 10:39pm

4ensic15 wrote: »

Planning permission is given by local authorities, not banks. The agent who sold it was acting on behalf of a bank who contracted out of any liability. There is zero channce of any plans, notes or sign off turning up. This is the adult world.

I'm suggesting if it was a local agent they might know more about the house. Town managers used to be able to sign off on items, without pulling the plans in the la your not going to know, it's worth investigating, ours turned up a load that nobody was away of.

astrofool · 29-06-2018 10:44pm

You'll need an architect to sign off that the conversion of the attic to a storage room/study is structurally sound. This should satisfy the bank, and allow them to get a mortgage.

nuac/Claw Hammer are behaving as if it's a 3rd level bedroom, where fire doors(with closers, that everyone removes...) are required throughout the house, roof height regulations (which most attics can't reach without adding a dormer), fixed smoke alarm, steepness of the stairs and there must be a window accessible for firemen to allow escape in the event of fire (among other items). Depending on the construction method, steel beams may not be required, however, the roof would have to be braced appropriately if the older supporting beams were cut.

Del2005 · 01-07-2018 11:02am

astrofool wrote: »

You'll need an architect to sign off that the conversion of the attic to a storage room/study is structurally sound. This should satisfy the bank, and allow them to get a mortgage.

nuac/Claw Hammer are behaving as if it's a 3rd level bedroom, where fire doors(with closers, that everyone removes...) are required throughout the house, roof height regulations (which most attics can't reach without adding a dormer), fixed smoke alarm, steepness of the stairs and there must be a window accessible for firemen to allow escape in the event of fire (among other items). Depending on the construction method, steel beams may not be required, however, the roof would have to be braced appropriately if the older supporting beams were cut.

It is a 3rd level bedroom it's just that it doesn't comply with any of the regulations so it can't be sold as a bedroom.

Lumen · 01-07-2018 9:28pm

Del2005 wrote: »

It is a 3rd level bedroom it's just that it doesn't comply with any of the regulations so it can't be sold as a bedroom.

What is the regulatory comeback from advertising it for sale as a bedroom? Almost zero. At worst the EA might get a slap on the wrist from the PSRA. Big deal.

More to the point it can't be used as a bedroom. Doing so is unsafe and a breach of planning regulations, which could bring enforcement proceedings. As could the front velux.

At least that's the theory. But the reality in that in all likelihood there will be no enforcement and nobody will do anything about these sort of breaches until someone dies, and then there will be a load of handwringing and then more of absolutely nothing.

Look at the Stardust case. 48 people died and the only person prosecuted was Christy Moore, for writing a song about it.

astrofool · 01-07-2018 10:07pm

Lumen wrote: »

What is the regulatory comeback from advertising it for sale as a bedroom? Almost zero. At worst the EA might get a slap on the wrist from the PSRA. Big deal.

It's very rare to see an attic room advertised as a bedroom, and the EA would rarely say as such either, because by law it isn't a bedroom, and is not compliant with the fire regulations of when it was built.

4ensic15 · 02-07-2018 7:57am

Lumen wrote: »

What is the regulatory comeback from advertising it for sale as a bedroom? Almost zero. At worst the EA might get a slap on the wrist from the PSRA. Big deal.

.

It is not just the regulatory comeback. If the room is advertised as a bedroom and the owner can't produce planning compliance documentation after signing the contract there could be a court action. It is also a waste of time advertising something as a bedroom and then issuing a contract saying it is not. The purchaser is going to be rightly annoyed after paying for a survey and paying a booking deposit to discover the master bedroom isn't a bedroom at all and their bank won't give the mortgage.

Sale agreed on our house - Attic conversion holding things up

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