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Buying land without full planning permission - risk??

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  • 14-06-2019 8:09pm
    #1
    Vicrom
    Registered Users Posts: 18 ✭


    Hi guys, can we get your opinion on this...

    We are looking to build a small traditional one-storey bungalow in Laois. We found a suitable site in Laois, in a non-local need area, with outline planning permission granted for a one-storey house of 240 sqm in size. The site is super private with mature trees all around the four corners. We've had a pre-planning meeting at the council and our very simple and small house design (100 sqm in size, rectangular shape, straightforward traditional look/finish, traditional slated roof, excellent insulation, solar panels on south side of roof, likely timber frame or ICF construction but not a log-house) is in line with the outline plan. Based on our plan and the fact that we plan to stick to all basic requirements and specifications outlined in the outline plan, the planner identified no issues that could get in the way of getting full planning permission in due time. Sightlines and percolation are all sorted within the outline planning permission. No objections were lodged at the outline planning stage, the site is in a private lane where only the current site owner lives (and a farmer uses it to access and work the land around it). Aside from the owner, there are no other houses close to the site, for at least 600 m distance away. We plan in applying subsequent to the outline for full planning permission and to stay within these parameters, to stay clear of any potential delays or complications later on.

    The owner wants to sell the land in a relatively fast timeframe and has been talking about deadlines to do so. Subsequently, and although not our preferred option, we are now seriously considering to buy the land as is (not subject to full PP being granted), before applying for full planning permission in a more relaxed fashion.

    The question for you is this: If we buy the land now as is and stick religiously to the current basic conditions and specifications of the outline planning permission (e.g. position of percolation area, type of waste treatment system already proposed, size of the house, splayed entrance, maintain natural boundaries as they are, etc...) is there really any risk of not getting full PP? What could go wrong?

    Thanks a million for any informed opinion on this.
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    #2
    Stanford
    Registered Users Posts: 1,178 ✭✭✭Stanford


    Meetings with planners have no legal basis and are not a guarantee of getting planning, also you may have an objection, its a risky strategy


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    #3
    Metric Tensor
    Registered Users Posts: 3,724 ✭✭✭Metric Tensor


    There is some risk but it's not super risky. How long ago was the outline permission granted? The outline running out of time is probably your biggest issue. They only last three years AND when you get permission consequent it will not give you a fresh five years to work with.

    I'd be cautious about the vendors rush! They have a site with outline permission in a time when prices are going up - so you have to ask yourself "What's the rush?"

    Have you agreed terms? If so tell them if you buy it now you will be taking more risk and hence paying less. You will pay the agreed amount upon receipt of "permission consequent."


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    #4
    Vicrom
    Registered Users Posts: 18 ✭Vicrom


    Thanks for that. Outline planning permission was granted only 2 months ago, so there is plenty time left on it.


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    #5
    BryanF
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 10,140 Mod ✭✭✭✭BryanF


    Do you meet the criteria for ‘local needs’, as classified in the relevant local development plan?
    Not much point in buying, unless you’re confident of this.


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    #6
    Vicrom
    Registered Users Posts: 18 ✭Vicrom


    The reason for the rush is an upcoming heart operation and I have reason to believe it is genuine, having spoken with a third party who know the seller.


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    #7
    Vicrom
    Registered Users Posts: 18 ✭Vicrom


    The site is in a structurally weak area (confirmed non local need) and we do meet the requirements. The sightlines was my only worry but I read in the planner report just the other day that both the planner and the area engineer saw no issues with the assessment of and the sightlines.


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    #8
    Vicrom
    Registered Users Posts: 18 ✭Vicrom


    plus, we are building a passive house (more like a net zero energy house actually) and having read their guidelines for rural house building, which we meet with flying colours and exceed in parts, I feel we are in a good place. Our building will be a poster-child for meeting their climate change emission goals at the Irish and EU level.


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    #9
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 40,994 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    Vicrom wrote: »
    Hi guys, can we get your opinion on this...

    We are looking to build a small traditional one-storey bungalow in Laois. We found a suitable site in Laois, in a non-local need area, with outline planning permission granted for a one-storey house of 240 sqm in size. The site is super private with mature trees all around the four corners. We've had a pre-planning meeting at the council and our very simple and small house design (100 sqm in size, rectangular shape, straightforward traditional look/finish, traditional slated roof, excellent insulation, solar panels on south side of roof, likely timber frame or ICF construction but not a log-house) is in line with the outline plan. Based on our plan and the fact that we plan to stick to all basic requirements and specifications outlined in the outline plan, the planner identified no issues that could get in the way of getting full planning permission in due time. Sightlines and percolation are all sorted within the outline planning permission. No objections were lodged at the outline planning stage, the site is in a private lane where only the current site owner lives (and a farmer uses it to access and work the land around it). Aside from the owner, there are no other houses close to the site, for at least 600 m distance away. We plan in applying subsequent to the outline for full planning permission and to stay within these parameters, to stay clear of any potential delays or complications later on.

    The owner wants to sell the land in a relatively fast timeframe and has been talking about deadlines to do so. Subsequently, and although not our preferred option, we are now seriously considering to buy the land as is (not subject to full PP being granted), before applying for full planning permission in a more relaxed fashion.

    The question for you is this: If we buy the land now as is and stick religiously to the current basic conditions and specifications of the outline planning permission (e.g. position of percolation area, type of waste treatment system already proposed, size of the house, splayed entrance, maintain natural boundaries as they are, etc...) is there really any risk of not getting full PP? What could go wrong?

    Thanks a million for any informed opinion on this.

    the fact that outline PP is already granted is enough for the sale to be valid without any need to purchase "subject to PP"

    once you stick to the conditions of planning, and design in accordance with Laois Rural Design Guidelines, then you should have no problem.


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    #10
    H.E. Pennypacker
    Closed Accounts Posts: 844 ✭✭✭H.E. Pennypacker


    It'd be worth your while having a chat with the farmer. There was a planning refusal near me recently (Kildare Co Co) where one of the objections was from a farmer who maintained that the lane that the site was on was too small to allow for him to operate his farm machinery if there was increased traffic on it.


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    #11
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 40,994 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    H.E. Pennypacker wrote: »
    It'd be worth your while having a chat with the farmer. There was a planning refusal near me recently (Kildare Co Co) where one of the objections was from a farmer who maintained that the lane that the site was on was too small to allow for him to operate his farm machinery if there was increased traffic on it.

    those issues would have been raised in the outline application.

    as any application the OP submits will be an "consequent" application, they cannot arise in the OPs application.


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    #12
    Vicrom
    Registered Users Posts: 18 ✭Vicrom


    Guys, thank you, your advice is gold. I appreciate the risk of objection is relatively small (hopefully none as sydthebeat points out). Our application will be subsequent to OPP, to avoid opening any new potential can of worms, objections being one of them. Having said that, we plan to talk to the local farmer and ensure we are in the best of terms with them. But yes, access to the lane is one of the topics of conversation but should be fine since the site owner mentioned that to him 8 months ago before submitting for outline plan permission (i.e. there will be someone else living and using the lane here).

    @sydthebeat Is there a document where it explains what you just said in your last comment? I would love having that handy should the need ever arise.

    Thanks guys!!


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    #13
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 40,994 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    Vicrom wrote: »
    Guys, thank you, your advice is gold. I appreciate the risk of objection is relatively small (hopefully none as sydthebeat points out). Our application will be subsequent to OPP, to avoid opening any new potential can of worms, objections being one of them. Having said that, we plan to talk to the local farmer and ensure we are in the best of terms with them. But yes, access to the lane is one of the topics of conversation but should be fine since the site owner mentioned that to him 8 months ago before submitting for outline plan permission (i.e. there will be someone else living and using the lane here).

    @sydthebeat Is there a document where it explains what you just said in your last comment? I would love having that handy should the need ever arise.

    Thanks guys!!

    theres no document as such.... other than the actual definition of outline planning permission... which is permission in principle on the site.

    the council have given permission in principle for a dwelling on that site.

    all they have not given permission for is the actual design.

    this is what you are applying for in a "consequent" application.

    http://www.waterfordcouncil.ie/departments/planning/planningpermission/types-of-planning-permission.htm

    so for your situation, if you are worried about someone objecting on your application, they can only object in matters pertaining to the design of the application, as the council have already given permission in principle to a dwelling on that lane, with those sightlines,. with that percolation result etc etc etc subject to the conditions applied.


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    #14
    Metric Tensor
    Registered Users Posts: 3,724 ✭✭✭Metric Tensor


    Metric Tensor wrote: »
    There is some risk but it's not super risky. How long ago was the outline permission granted? The outline running out of time is probably your biggest issue. They only last three years AND when you get permission consequent it will not give you a fresh five years to work with.


    Correction to the above. It has been pointed out to me that you will most likely get a fresh five years.


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    #15
    Vicrom
    Registered Users Posts: 18 ✭Vicrom


    Got it, thanks guys!


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    #16
    mickdw
    Registered Users Posts: 23,260 ✭✭✭✭mickdw


    I don't see any issues on the planning side. Just make sure you have no issues with access to site etc.
    There can be all sorts of slight of hand carried out just to get planning such as wrongly claiming ownership of a lane or falsely stating area of a site or something like that. Planning can be granted on that basis but will be meaningless.
    Just make sure to check everything out fully.


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    #17
    Calahonda52
    Registered Users Posts: 12,195 ✭✭✭✭Calahonda52


    Vicrom wrote: »
    ...the site is in a private lane where only the current site owner lives (and a farmer uses it to access and work the land around it). ......
    Have you got a legal opinion in this piece?
    when you say private lane: who owns it?What does private mean?
    Does the farmer have a right of way based on paperwork or adverse possession?

    “I can’t pay my staff or mortgage with instagram likes”.



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