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Bike to Work scheme - the Megathread - Read post #1 before posting

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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 42 Kubota


    Sorry for the double posting. Thanks for the replies unfortunately not the answers I was hoping to hear.

    Statler. Are you talking about Canyon or your employer?

    It's looking like it's going to fall through at this stage don't think there is an equivalent spec'd bike out there for the same money.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 890 ✭✭✭Statler


    Kubota wrote: »

    Statler. Are you talking about Canyon or your employer?

    Talking about Canyon, great to deal with once you're happy with their terms...


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 357 ✭✭loudymacloud


    Kaisr Sose wrote: »
    You have already asked that in the B2W thread. It's not good practice to post the same question in multiple and non-relevant threads.

    I am in Public Service and I can't but from Canyon unless it's €1000 or less. It seems to be the same for you - as in your employer has already said the invoice can't be more than the €1000. If they won't do EFT it's also a non runner. They are unlikely to change their process for this purchase.

    i work in the public service and for a few years was in charge of the BTW scheme for our Department, we managed to buy a bike via canyon that was over the €1000 limit.

    invoice came in for about €2300 i think, the employee paid the €1300 directly to canyon and we paid the €1000 to canyon too via EFT.

    Our records were ok as we just added a note to the invoice to state that we only paid €1000.

    seemed to work ok that time, that is a few years ago now, so it may have changed since.


  • Registered Users Posts: 42 Kubota


    Thanks loudymacloud. When you say Public Service do you mean for a LA? I was onto Canyon and they said that customers from other Local Authorities have purchased bikes on the BTW Scheme so hears hoping.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 357 ✭✭loudymacloud


    Kubota wrote: »
    Thanks loudymacloud. When you say Public Service do you mean for a LA? I was onto Canyon and they said that customers from other Local Authorities have purchased bikes on the BTW Scheme so hears hoping.

    Was not an LA, was Dept of Education at the time.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,260 ✭✭✭Kaisr Sose


    i work in the public service and for a few years was in charge of the BTW scheme for our Department, we managed to buy a bike via canyon that was over the €1000 limit.

    invoice came in for about €2300 i think, the employee paid the €1300 directly to canyon and we paid the €1000 to canyon too via EFT.

    Our records were ok as we just added a note to the invoice to state that we only paid €1000.

    seemed to work ok that time, that is a few years ago now, so it may have changed since.

    Canyon will not allow seperate payments now. Maybe they did before. I tried as well. Full payment only.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,157 ✭✭✭srsly78


    Just have the company pay in full, then mark the excess (>e1000) as a bonus payment to employee. This is how I accounted for it. Employee will have to pay tax as normal on the bonus payment.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,373 ✭✭✭iwillhtfu


    Kaisr Sose wrote: »
    Canyon will not allow seperate payments now. Maybe they did before. I tried as well. Full payment only.

    I think someone posted here recently that they were on to Canyon and they could pay a deposit up front and the balance on completion but it will all be as one invoice.


  • Registered Users Posts: 42 Kubota


    Canyon have no problem in taking separate payments on one Invoice only. They will not give you two Invoices for the one bike, one for 1k for the BTW and balance for the customer.

    My employer has a problem with an Invoice for the full amount above 1k.
    They are looking into it to see if can be resolved. I have suggested that they pay the full amount and I pay them the balance, surely in this day and age something could be sorted to keep the auditors and taxman happy.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,373 ✭✭✭iwillhtfu


    Kubota wrote: »
    Canyon have no problem in taking separate payments on one Invoice only. They will not give you two Invoices for the one bike, one for 1k for the BTW and balance for the customer.

    My employer has a problem with an Invoice for the full amount above 1k.
    They are looking into it to see if can be resolved. I have suggested that they pay the full amount and I pay them the balance, surely in this day and age something could be sorted to keep the auditors and taxman happy.

    That's what I did when I bought from Canyon I paid them and they paid the total invoice. Although in saying that I work for the kind of company that probably would have allow me pay back the entire amount over 12 months so to say they're easy going would be an understatement.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,260 ✭✭✭Kaisr Sose


    srsly78 wrote: »
    Just have the company pay in full, then mark the excess (>e1000) as a bonus payment to employee. This is how I accounted for it. Employee will have to pay tax as normal on the bonus payment.

    That's not going to happen in a Local Authority or anywhere that don't routinely give bonuses! What you outline is to the best of my knowledge a branch of the scheme and opens the whole purchase up to BIK (the legislation excludes this purchase from BIK if the benefit is under €1,000)


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 25,175 Mod ✭✭✭✭CramCycle


    Kaisr Sose wrote: »
    That's not going to happen in a Local Authority or anywhere that don't routinely give bonuses! What you outline is to the best of my knowledge a branch of the scheme and opens the whole purchase up to BIK (the legislation excludes this purchase from BIK if the benefit is under €1,000)

    Not really, they could take it off your net pay, then BIK is not applicable.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,260 ✭✭✭Kaisr Sose


    CramCycle wrote: »
    Not really, they could take it off your net pay, then BIK is not applicable.

    That's not what the poster said. They said Bonus payment , which means gift and BIK territory


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 25,175 Mod ✭✭✭✭CramCycle


    Kaisr Sose wrote: »
    That's not what the poster said. They said Bonus payment , which means gift and BIK territory

    I know but that simply is an impossibility, as a public/civil servant, it is not even remotely possible as far as I know (could be wrong). Having it deducted from net pay is possible but it does rely on someone pulling their finger out and doing a few minutes extra work.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,260 ✭✭✭Kaisr Sose


    Lol...
    The guy from the LA has very little chance of getting the bonus payment, maybe if they were Irish Water , they could :D

    It was another poster that introduced this as a solution, but I don't think it's permitted within the scheme rules.


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  • Administrators, Social & Fun Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 77,534 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Beasty


    Couple of points:

    1. Employer can gift the bike to the employee. If it's under €1,000 it's tax free. If it's over the first €1k is tax free and the balance is a BIK
    2. Cash bonuses are taxable at source under PAYE for employees

    I appreciate neither may be relevant to the LA scenario described though


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 228 ✭✭o Fiac


    This post has been deleted.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,606 ✭✭✭schemingbohemia


    I would think that the payment would just transfer over on a weekly basis, shouldn't be a problem as I'm sure it's happened a lot before. It would also happen with the Taxsaver tickets a lot, similar payment structure.


  • Registered Users Posts: 42 Kubota


    Just an update my situation working in the public sector. My employer has kindly agreed to pay the full amount and I pay them the balance in excess of €1k.
    I'm hoping the transfer happens this week, so happy days.

    I do hope the bike I ordered has been kept for me as I see on the website that the build week is for mid-Sept, that will be my next nightmare.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,360 ✭✭✭I love Sean nos


    ó Fíach wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.
    No idea what your salary is at present and therefore what tax band you belong in, but it could be worth your while to hold off if you were moving up a tax band for better value.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 228 ✭✭o Fiac


    This post has been deleted.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 357 ✭✭loudymacloud


    ó Fíach wrote: »
    Cheers @I love Sean nos, I am moving from CO to AO, but will be in the same tax band for the first 3 years I think, so it shouldn't effect me.

    Your balance owed will transfer over to whatever new department you join. Should be done automatically by Peoplepoint and payroll


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 228 ✭✭o Fiac


    This post has been deleted.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 55 ✭✭BAAA RAM EWE


    Is it utter hardship to try and buy a Canyon through Travelhub on the BTW scheme?


  • Registered Users Posts: 501 ✭✭✭rtmie


    Looking at travelhub.ie it looks like a voucher based scheme so I'd guess you are limited to the participating shops listed on their site.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,373 ✭✭✭iwillhtfu


    Is it utter hardship to try and buy a Canyon through Travelhub on the BTW scheme?

    Canyon don't deal with voucher schemes so save yourself the hardship it's impossible.


  • Registered Users Posts: 186 ✭✭98-00


    I'm looking into doing the bike to work scheme.
    Do I have to pay the VAT on the bike?
    If a bike cost €615 would I only pay €500? Is that right?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,772 ✭✭✭cython


    98-00 wrote: »
    I'm looking into doing the bike to work scheme.
    Do I have to pay the VAT on the bike?
    If a bike cost €615 would I only pay €500? Is that right?

    Yes, VAT is payable. Ultimate cost of the bike is dependent on your marginal rate of tax, so nobody here can tell you what it will cost based on the above info.


  • Registered Users Posts: 186 ✭✭98-00


    thanks


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 25,175 Mod ✭✭✭✭CramCycle


    The bike will cost the same as it does if you were buying it in a shop without the scheme. There is no change in price. The saving is that you pay less tax through your wages as the cost of the bike is taken off your wages before tax is applied.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,360 ✭✭✭I love Sean nos


    CramCycle wrote: »
    The bike will cost the same as it does if you were buying it in a shop without the scheme. There is no change in price. The saving is that you pay less tax through your wages as the cost of the bike is taken off your wages before tax is applied.
    Except that the bike shop will be less inclined to knock anything off the price or throw anything in if there's another party managing things on behalf of your employer as they're most likely being used to fund the other party.


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 25,175 Mod ✭✭✭✭CramCycle


    Except that the bike shop will be less inclined to knock anything off the price or throw anything in if there's another party managing things on behalf of your employer as they're most likely being used to fund the other party.

    100% true, middle men companies tend to charge 10% commission which means that the typical minimum 10% off many would be used too disappears. The list price in the shop doesn't change though was my point.

    A point I have made before to any employers out there. It is easier and quicker to implement the scheme yourself than use a third party, as they still get you to do all the checks you would have done anyway. If you have any sort of an accountancy system or company card/cheque book, it is simples.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,881 ✭✭✭terrydel


    Few qs on this -
    How do you know/find out when exactly you are eligible for this scheme a second or subsequent time? Mine is up around March/April next year but not sure exactly when.
    I'm an IT contractor, via the umbrella company type setup, does anyone know if people in my siutation are even eligible for it?
    Is the entire scheme run by a middleman-type voucher company now? I'd heard the One4All crowd had took it over? So no chance of the 10% or whatever discount you might get, which I myself got last time round.

    Cheers.


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 25,175 Mod ✭✭✭✭CramCycle


    terrydel wrote: »
    Few qs on this -
    How do you know/find out when exactly you are eligible for this scheme a second or subsequent time? Mine is up around March/April next year but not sure exactly when.
    Depends on how your company run it but legally, if they allow it, any time from the 5th tax year after you avail of it. You say March/April but if your company allow it, anytime from January.
    I'm an IT contractor, via the umbrella company type setup, does anyone know if people in my siutation are even eligible for it?
    If your company run it, then you are eligible. So it depends on if the company listed on your paycheque. If your a contractor, it will be whoever runs your contract. For example if you worked for IT Hire Ltd. but your job was in Vodafone as a contractor, it does not matter if Vodafone run it, it only matters if IT Hire Ltd run it.
    Is the entire scheme run by a middleman-type voucher company now? I'd heard the One4All crowd had took it over? So no chance of the 10% or whatever discount you might get, which I myself got last time round.
    Again depends on the company, you will know when you go to apply for the scheme if it is being run by as middle man or direct with the company to the shop. One4all (An Post) are just a company that run middle men schemes like this, others include travel hub, Bike2Work etc. No one owns the scheme and no one runs it as such, these crowds are just chancers who preyed on the laziness of some companies junior accountants and the fear of management that they might eat into their Juniors time.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,881 ✭✭✭terrydel


    CramCycle wrote: »
    Depends on how your company run it but legally, if they allow it, any time from the 5th tax year after you avail of it. You say March/April but if your company allow it, anytime from January.
    If your company run it, then you are eligible. So it depends on if the company listed on your paycheque. If your a contractor, it will be whoever runs your contract. For example if you worked for IT Hire Ltd. but your job was in Vodafone as a contractor, it does not matter if Vodafone run it, it only matters if IT Hire Ltd run it.
    Again depends on the company, you will know when you go to apply for the scheme if it is being run by as middle man or direct with the company to the shop. One4all (An Post) are just a company that run middle men schemes like this, others include travel hub, Bike2Work etc. No one owns the scheme and no one runs it as such, these crowds are just chancers who preyed on the laziness of some companies junior accountants and the fear of management that they might eat into their Juniors time.

    Thank you for the very comprehensive answer, much appreciated.
    Agree on the middlemen companies being chancers, the cynic in me says all middlemen companies across any business or industry are simply unneccessary chancers.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,157 ✭✭✭srsly78


    terrydel wrote: »
    I'm an IT contractor, via the umbrella company type setup, does anyone know if people in my siutation are even eligible for it?

    This means nothing. Clarify your exact circumstances to get proper answer. What you said above gives no indication as to whether you are a company director or an employee.

    If you are a self-employed proprietary director then you can quite happily approve yourself for the scheme.

    Umbrella companies are useless middlemen that only take a cut of your wages, they may even refuse to approve this stuff just because it's effort for them.


  • Registered Users Posts: 22 Roger.


    Hi.

    Any of you know if a person can use the Bike2Work scheme only to get New equipment, like vest, lights, locks, helmets, etc?

    Thanks.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 605 ✭✭✭PoorFarmer


    I would imagine your bike shop will have no problem with it. Cannot officially do that though so they will have to issue a receipt for a bicycle.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,226 ✭✭✭wally1990


    This is not allowed
    A bike must be purchased

    Background : I work in an accountants and had issues with the revenue with this during audits


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,772 ✭✭✭cython


    PoorFarmer wrote: »
    I would imagine your bike shop will have no problem with it. Cannot officially do that though so they will have to issue a receipt for a bicycle.
    wally1990 wrote: »
    This is not allowed
    A bike must be purchased

    Background : I work in an accountants and had issues with the revenue with this during audits

    I was under this impression myself, but re-reading both the legislation and a Revenue guidelines document, there is nothing precluding the purchase of safety equipment on its own (emphasis is mine):
    (5G) (a) Subject to paragraph (c) of this subsection, subsection (1) shall not apply to expense of up to €1,000 incurred by the body corporate in, or in connection with, the provision for a director or employee of a bicycle or bicycle safety equipment, where—
    (i) the bicycle and bicycle safety equipment provided is unused and not second-hand,
    (ii) the director or employee uses the bicycle or bicycle safety equipment, or the bicycle and the bicycle safety equipment, as the case may be, mainly for qualifying journeys, and
    (iii) bicycles or bicycle safety equipment, or bicycles and bicycle safety equipment, as the case may be, are made available generally to directors and employees of the body corporate.
    (b) In this subsection—
    “bicycle” means a pedal cycle;
    “bicycle safety equipment” includes—
    (i) bicycle bells and bulb horns,
    (ii) bicycle helmets that conform to European product safety standard CEN/EN 1078,
    (iii) bicycle lights, including dynamo packs,
    (iv) bicycle reflectors and reflective clothing, and
    (v) such other safety equipment as the Revenue Commissioners may allow;
    “normal place of work” means the place where the director or employee normally performs the duties of his or her office or employment;
    “pedal cycle” means—
    (i) a bicycle or tricycle which is intended or adapted for propulsion solely by the physical exertions of a person or persons seated thereon, or
    (ii) a pedelec,
    but does not include a moped or a scooter;
    “pedelec” means a bicycle or tricycle which is equipped with an auxiliary electric motor having a maximum continuous rated power of 0.25 kilowatts, of which output is progressively reduced and finally cut off as the vehicle reaches a speed of 25 kilometres per hour, or sooner if the cyclist stops pedalling;
    “qualifying journey”, in relation to a director or employee, means the whole or part of a journey—
    (i) between the director’s or employee’s home and normal place of work, or
    (ii) between the director’s or employee’s normal place of work and another place of work, where the director or employee is travelling in the performance of the duties of his or her office or employment.
    (c) A director or employee shall not, by virtue of this subsection, be relieved from a charge to income tax under subsection (1) more than once in any period of 5 consecutive years of assessment, commencing with the year of assessment in which the director or employee concerned is first provided with a bicycle or bicycle safety equipment.
    the first €1,000 expenditure incurred by an employer in the provision of a
    bicycle (bicycle includes pedal cycles or pedelecs but does not include motor
    cycles, scooters or mopeds) or bicycle safety equipment by an employer to an
    employee, where the bicycle/safety equipment is used by the employee for
    qualifying journeys (the whole or part of a journey to and from work or
    between work places). The exemption only applies where bicycles/safety
    equipment are made available generally to all employees.
    (5G)(a) &
    (b)
    An employee may only avail of the exemption once in any period of 5 years
    commencing with the year in which the bicycle or safety equipment is first
    provided

    All bar two references in this refers to provision of a bicycle or safety equipment, not that a bicycle is a necessary component of the package at all times, and even the one that uses the word and does so as follows:

    the director or employee uses the bicycle or bicycle safety equipment, or the bicycle and the bicycle safety equipment, as the case may be

    While the remaining one using and simply asserts that bicycle and equipment must be new, likely to preclude someone selling anything second hand under the scheme.

    While the intention of the scheme may be solely for provision equipment with a bicycle, that is not what is written.


  • Registered Users Posts: 22 Roger.


    cython wrote: »
    While the intention of the scheme may be solely for provision equipment with a bicycle, that is not what is written.

    Hi cython,

    Thanks so much for replying, I think this is very clear. As for me and according to the documentation founded on the "Νοtes for Guidance – Taxes Consolidation Act 1997 – Finance Act 2016 Edition - Part 5" documentation that you kindly attached, a person can buy a bicycle or safety equipment. Although an individual has to go to the store and ask if they will do that, though :p
    Not sure if they are even aware of this.

    Anyway, cython, thanks so much for your answer.

    Best regards.

    Roger.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,139 ✭✭✭homer911


    Good question well answered!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,561 ✭✭✭Eamonnator


    I have always been under the impression, that you had to buy a bike, when availing of the Bike to Work scheme.

    There is a megathread on the subject.
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056382170#


  • Site Banned Posts: 20,686 ✭✭✭✭Weepsie


    <Mod Voice> Merged threads, and just a warning to not advise people how to abuse the B2W scheme or get around it please


  • Registered Users Posts: 22 Roger.


    Eamonnator wrote: »
    I have always been under the impression, that you had to buy a bike, when availing of the Bike to Work scheme.

    There is a megathread on the subject.
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056382170#

    Hi, Eamonnator.

    Yes men I also had that impression too, reason why I wanted to know more about it. I just needed to have in hand the proper regulations and be able to go through it and try to understand them. Law is straightforward but sometimes it may get little bit tricky fro those whom can't understand the real meaning, in this case me. :P

    Thank you all for your time and help!

    Roger.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,606 ✭✭✭schemingbohemia


    It's a bit of a waste of an opportunity for a new bike though if you use it just for equipment. You can only use it every 5 years.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,382 ✭✭✭✭rubadub


    wally1990 wrote: »
    This is not allowed
    A bike must be purchased

    Background : I work in an accountants and had issues with the revenue with this during audits
    I used to think that before re-reading the law. Did auditors actually say this? what were the issues over?

    The usual question people have is can they buy wheels or a new groupset. I have never seen anybody just want to buy just safety gear. There is nothing to stop a shop building a bike with a very expensive groupset on a €100 bike.
    Roger. wrote: »
    Any of you know if a person can use the Bike2Work scheme only to get New equipment, like vest, lights, locks, helmets, etc?
    Locks do not seem to be included in the law, which I think is crazy.

    On revenues own site they do list them though

    http://www.revenue.ie/en/employing-people/what-constitutes-pay/items-not-treated-as-pay/provision-of-bicycles-for-directors-and-employees.aspx
    Qualifying bicycles and safety equipment
    The following bicycles and equipment can qualify for this scheme:

    pedal bicycles and tricycles
    pedelecs (electrically assisted bicycle that requires some effort to propel)
    cycle helmets covered under European standard EN 1078
    bells and bulb horns
    lights, including dynamo packs
    mirrors and mudguards
    cycle clips and dress guards
    panniers, luggage carriers and straps
    locks and chains
    pumps and puncture repair kits
    reflective clothing and bicycle reflectors
    safety equipment.
    The following items are not allowed:

    mopeds or scooters
    second-hand bicycles or equipment
    bicycle parts or associated equipment.

    The law says this
    ‘ bicycle safety equipment ’ includes—

    (i) bicycle bells and bulb horns,

    (ii) bicycle helmets that conform to European product safety standard CEN/EN 1078,

    (iii) bicycle lights, including dynamo packs,

    (iv) bicycle reflectors and reflective clothing, and

    (v) such other safety equipment as the Revenue Commissioners may allow;
    I wonder if this means the revenue list is OK to follow?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,109 ✭✭✭✭loyatemu


    it's a tax scheme, I'd say you're safe enough going with Revenue's published interpretation of it.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,260 ✭✭✭Kaisr Sose


    loyatemu wrote: »
    it's a tax scheme, I'd say you're safe enough going with Revenue's published interpretation of it.

    Revenue are not great at tax advice or guidance. The SI is the definitive.

    IMO the scheme does not prohibit safety equipment on its own. Ultimately, the scheme is administered by your employer. If they will not accept a receipt that does not also show a bike listed, there is not much you can do.


  • Registered Users Posts: 22 Roger.


    It's a bit of a waste of an opportunity for a new bike though if you use it just for equipment. You can only use it every 5 years.

    Hi schemingbohemia, you are right, but then what about the people who has a bike but not the proper safety equipment?

    I mean if the Bike2Work scheme only covers bike and new equipment, even though it's nice, still I think exclude some percentage of people who doesn't need a new bike.


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