Irish Rail Fixed Penalty Notice, Rail Safety Act 2005

Laura4193 · 13-03-2017 5:24pm #1

Hi,

I'll try to keep this as short as possible. I get a monthly ticket on my leap card from work for the bus and rail. I had only moved to Maynooth when I started the job and told them I'd more than likely be getting the train from Maynooth. A couple of months later and I started getting on at Kilcock as it was handier for parking.

I never thought anything was wrong, certainly didn't think I was dong anything wrong. Kilcock is a very small station, no Iirsh Rail staff, no smart card machine, just a ticket vending machine with the smart card top up facility on it.

Last week an inspector scanned my card on the train and told me it wasn't valid for Kilcock as I was out of the "Short Hop Zone". He then slapped me with €100 fine plus the full fare of €8.10.

I then offered him my personal leap card which had sufficient credit but he refused. My card was confiscated but he told me to go in and ask for the manager and explain that Kilcock would be included in the zone in June and that it wasn't "user-friendly".

I subsequently did that two days later and turns out the manager told me that in fact the inspector had told him I was told to come in to pay ALL my fares that I "avoided" which would be over €1,000.

Hand on heart I did not intentionally avoid fares, I don't have to pay anyway my job does for me! I was genuinely clueless to this "zone" thing.

Now on looking into the Rail Safety Act I can see you have to have intent to avoid paying the fare, me offering my personal leap card shows I didn't but whats the odds of that holding up?

Bottom line is I can't afford it. This is why my job pays for me, I earn less than €20,000 a year.

Anyone know where I stand on this or what I can do?

GM228 · 13-03-2017 7:23pm

Make an appeal, if that isn't succesfull either just pay or take your chances in court.

Generally offering to pay something afterwards does not show you didn't have intent as the intent would have applied at the moment you joined the train, not when you are allegedly caught.

Problem with intent is there is little case law to define it or give guidance on how it is tested. But here's the thing, you told your employer you would be travelling from Maynooth, you then decided to travel from Kilcock which is further away without checking your ticket was valid......

Other than that we can't give legal advise here, if you intend to challenge it I suggest you consult a solicitor. Best of luck.

Marcusm · 13-03-2017 7:38pm

It's hard to see what genuine basis you would have for an appeal.

Losty Dublin · 13-03-2017 9:08pm

Did you check to see if your pass covered you to travel from Kilcock or not, OP?

L1011 · 13-03-2017 9:31pm

You've made things much worse by telling the inspector you were doing it repeatedly. They'll have records of the tag offs in the mornings and tag ons in the evening without matching ones and calculate all of those as skipped fares. Having a Leap card outside the Leap zone doesn't seem like it'd wash as intent to pay.

Thought this was in a transport forum so may have overstepped the legal advice rule here, at least before editing anyway

sdanseo · 13-03-2017 9:40pm

The much more reasonable question is, if you were tagging on and off appropriately, why did the system not deduct money from the card instead of using the monthly short hop pass? And if there was no credit, surely you would then see this on the barrier displays?

Sounds like Irish Rail made it very difficult for you in your circumstances to realise you were doing wrong. Speaking hypothetically, wouldn't a judge have to be satisfied beyone reasonable doubt that you intended to steal?

Would offering to pay back the difference in fares over a period of time (without the fines) do any good I wonder?

L1011 · 13-03-2017 10:14pm

sdanseo wrote: »

The much more reasonable question is, if you were tagging on and off appropriately, why did the system not deduct money from the card instead of using the monthly short hop pass? And if there was no credit, surely you would then see this on the barrier displays?

They weren't, as there are no Leap readers in Kilcock.

If you tag off without a tag on with an SHZ ticket it assumes you entered via an unmanned SHZ station and lets you through - I do it daily as I use the second entrance/exit from Connolly that brings you in behind the barriers surreally.

Laura4193 · 14-03-2017 8:10am

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Did you check to see if your pass covered you to travel from Kilcock or not, OP?

No Losty Dublin, that's the colossal mistake I made. I just genuinely believed my ticket covered me. I thought it was just unlimited bus and rail.

Laura4193 · 14-03-2017 8:15am

L1011 wrote: »

You've made things much worse by telling the inspector you were doing it repeatedly. They'll have records of the tag offs in the mornings and tag ons in the evening without matching ones and calculate all of those as skipped fares. Having a Leap card outside the Leap zone doesn't seem like it'd wash as intent to pay.

Thought this was in a transport forum so may have overstepped the legal advice rule here, at least before editing anyway

I know, I just believed at the time they would see how honest I was being and know I was being genuine. Unfortunately compassion isn't a trait they own.

Laura4193 · 14-03-2017 8:19am

sdanseo wrote: »

Would offering to pay back the difference in fares over a period of time (without the fines) do any good I wonder?

Unfortunately, the figure of over €1,000 is the full fares price of all the times I've been doing this unknowingly in the last few months. The fine of €100 would be slapped on top of that.

Only thing with this is Irish Rail would have to "assume" any tag off without a tag on was me boarding at Kilcock. But surely they can't base on assumptions?

LXFlyer · 14-03-2017 1:10pm

I am struggling to understand why you would not even check what the fares were from Kilcock or whether your ticket was valid before travelling from there.

Kilcock has never been within the Dublin Suburban fares zone, and will only move into it in June following an NTA fare review.

You've not paid the correct fare for months from what you're saying here - I'm sorry but you have to take responsibility for your own actions. What do you expect?

Everyone else pays the correct fare - you didn't and it is your responsibility to have the correct ticket for your journey.

L1011 · 14-03-2017 1:17pm

Laura4193 wrote: »

Only thing with this is Irish Rail would have to "assume" any tag off without a tag on was me boarding at Kilcock. But surely they can't base on assumptions?

They've an admission and very strong evidence from the tag data.

Laura4193 · 14-03-2017 1:20pm

lxflyer wrote: »

I am struggling to understand why you would not even check what the fares were from Kilcock or whether your ticket was valid before travelling from there.

Kilcock has never been within the Dublin Suburban fares zone, and will only move into it in June following an NTA fare review.

You've not paid the correct fare for months from what you're saying here - I'm sorry but you have to take responsibility for your own actions. What do you expect?

Everyone else pays the correct fare - you didn't and it is your responsibility to have the correct ticket for your journey.

I assumed my card covered all stations like an unlimited travel ticket, I wasn't aware what exact ticket was on it as I had mentioned in my original post my employer got it for me, I had nothing to do with purchasing the ticket.

You're making it sound like I had something to gain from staying on an extra stop? It made zero financial difference to me, once again my employer pays for my travel.

It was a genuine mistake, one that had I of known at the time I would have stayed getting on and off at Maynooth.

I'm not familiar with that train line area and it's "zones" regardless as I've only moved out there in the last year.

Maybe you couldn't read my original post fully from your ivory tower.

LXFlyer · 14-03-2017 1:28pm

Laura4193 wrote: »

I assumed my card covered all stations like an unlimited travel ticket, I wasn't aware what exact ticket was on it as I had mentioned in my original post my employer got it for me, I had nothing to do with purchasing the ticket.

You're making it sound like I had something to gain from staying on an extra stop? It made zero financial difference to me, once again my employer pays for my travel.

It was a genuine mistake, one that had I of known at the time I would have stayed getting on and off at Maynooth.

I'm not familiar with that train line area and it's "zones" regardless as I've only moved out there in the last year.

Maybe you couldn't read my original post fully from your ivory tower.

With respect - if I am using a public transport service I would make sure what the fares were or whether my ticket was valid or not beforehand - that's pretty normal behaviour.

I've read all your posts and frankly it does beggar belief that you didn't bother checking the fares. If we follow your logic, are you saying that you believed you could walk into any railway station in the country and use the ticket to travel to any other railway station across the entire country??

Come on be realistic - I'm sorry but you have to take some responsibility in life for your actions. You didn't bother to check the fares, and have paid the wrong fare for months by your own admission. You may not have intended to, but the fact remains that you have not paid the valid fare for months.

It has nothing to do with ivory towers - it is all to do with taking responsibility for your own actions in life - it is your responsibility to have a valid ticket, and you didn't bother to check whether you did or not.

Laura4193 · 14-03-2017 1:38pm

lxflyer wrote: »

With respect - if I am using a public transport service I would make sure what the fares were or whether my ticket was valid or not beforehand - that's pretty normal behaviour.

I've read all your posts and frankly it does beggar belief that you didn't bother checking the fares. If we follow your logic, are you saying that you believed you could walk into any railway station in the country and use the ticket to travel to any other railway station across the entire country??

Come on be realistic - I'm sorry but you have to take some responsibility in life for your actions. You didn't bother to check the fares, and have paid the wrong fare for months by your own admission. You may not have intended to, but the fact remains that you have not paid the valid fare for months.

It has nothing to do with ivory towers - it is all to do with taking responsibility for your own actions in life - it is your responsibility to have a valid ticket, and you didn't bother to check whether you did or not.

I'll be the first to admit I didn't bother checking, that was my mistake. I assumed I was covered. I would have checked if it had of been money from my own pocket but with work willing to pay any figure I had thought the ticket would have covered a vast area, certainly one more stop!

If there had of been a smart card reader at the station beeping back at me telling me my ticket was invalid I would never of gotten the train to or from that stop.

I was not PURPOSELY evading a fare. And according to the act you have to have the intent. I did not.

I posted on here to prove my naivety and the fact that I was not intentionally trying to cut corners and for advice on what to do next. I didn't post to get a life lecture on what not to do, it's done I can't change it.

LXFlyer · 14-03-2017 1:50pm

Laura4193 wrote: »

I'll be the first to admit I didn't bother checking, that was my mistake. I assumed I was covered. I would have checked if it had of been money from my own pocket but with work willing to pay any figure I had thought the ticket would have covered a vast area, certainly one more stop!

If there had of been a smart card reader at the station beeping back at me telling me my ticket was invalid I would never of gotten the train to or from that stop.

I was not PURPOSELY evading a fare. And according to the act you have to have the intent. I did not.

I posted on here to prove my naivety and the fact that I was not intentionally trying to cut corners and for advice on what to do next. I didn't post to get a life lecture on what not to do, it's done I can't change it.

With respect I am not lecturing you on what not to do - I'm making the point that you are responsible for your own actions. You made a mistake, and now you have to take the consequences for it. That clearly isn't what you want to hear, but I think that you're going to have to deal with it.

Where would you stop with this "one more stop" argument? That's ridiculous to be honest.

I'm afraid I don't believe that you have a leg to stand on - You've already admitted to Irish Rail to travelling without having the correct ticket for months.

Absolutely anyone could claim that they didn't intend to pay the incorrect fare - but I don't see how you think that is a valid excuse for not having the right ticket.

The fact of the matter is that (intentionally or not) you didn't check the fares, and you travelled on an invalid ticket - I don't see any wriggle room around that. You made all sorts of incorrect assumptions - like it or not that is your fault.

Fred Swanson · 14-03-2017 1:53pm

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cml387 · 15-03-2017 11:22am

Fred Swanson wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Very lenient.
There was the senior baker who did something quite similar to the OP (except it was with deliberate knowledge aforethought ) who narrowly avoided a jail sentence.

Read all about it.

Victor · 15-03-2017 5:19pm

Fred Swanson wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

It's not just €100, it's that plus the fares foregone in each instance.

Laura4193 · 20-03-2017 2:03pm

So there's been an update so far..

I called on Thursday 16/03 to pay as the Notice was finally showing online for me.

The guys in the Head Office only quoted me for €108.10, the original fine plus the fare.

I've paid that and now on their online service it says I'm fully paid up.

But, here's my problem, I got a letter dated 14th March telling me to pay up €696.60 (86 trips of €8.10) as they've gone back on the assumption of me not tagging on or off would be the same Kilcock to Dublin route.

Because I've been told since the letter has been written that I'm paid up do yous think this will actually be the end of it now?
I can't understand why their online system would quote me the full amount otherwise?

TheChizler · 20-03-2017 2:10pm

In fairness any time I've made the journey up to Dublin and used IR/TFI services in general it seems they operate on the expectation that you understand the system. There's no one resource explaining the fares for each zone or what's covered by the ticket. While you should always do your research, they don't make it easy, unless they've updated the website recently.

If you're only after walking into a station and can only go by the information present without internet access I don't know how you'd go about being sure you're doing the right thing.

Little CuChulainn · 20-03-2017 3:01pm

Would you not only be liable for the fare between Kilcock and Maynooth as the leap card covered you from Maynooth?

LXFlyer · 20-03-2017 3:06pm

TheChizler wrote: »

In fairness any time I've made the journey up to Dublin and used IR/TFI services in general it seems they operate on the expectation that you understand the system. There's no one resource explaining the fares for each zone or what's covered by the ticket. While you should always do your research, they don't make it easy, unless they've updated the website recently.

If you're only after walking into a station and can only go by the information present without internet access I don't know how you'd go about being sure you're doing the right thing.

I think that this page makes it quite easy to find it what the fares are:
http://www.irishrail.ie/fares-and-tickets/fares-info

It isn't exactly hidden.

LXFlyer · 20-03-2017 3:06pm

Laura4193 wrote: »

So there's been an update so far..

I called on Thursday 16/03 to pay as the Notice was finally showing online for me.

The guys in the Head Office only quoted me for €108.10, the original fine plus the fare.

I've paid that and now on their online service it says I'm fully paid up.

But, here's my problem, I got a letter dated 14th March telling me to pay up €696.60 (86 trips of €8.10) as they've gone back on the assumption of me not tagging on or off would be the same Kilcock to Dublin route.

Because I've been told since the letter has been written that I'm paid up do yous think this will actually be the end of it now?
I can't understand why their online system would quote me the full amount otherwise?

Get something in writing from them if you are concerned.

Little CuChulainn · 20-03-2017 3:18pm

Laura4193 wrote: »

So there's been an update so far..

I called on Thursday 16/03 to pay as the Notice was finally showing online for me.

The guys in the Head Office only quoted me for €108.10, the original fine plus the fare.

I've paid that and now on their online service it says I'm fully paid up.

But, here's my problem, I got a letter dated 14th March telling me to pay up €696.60 (86 trips of €8.10) as they've gone back on the assumption of me not tagging on or off would be the same Kilcock to Dublin route.

Because I've been told since the letter has been written that I'm paid up do yous think this will actually be the end of it now?
I can't understand why their online system would quote me the full amount otherwise?

Is the online system not just realted to the incident you got the fixed charge penalty for? The letter is probably just an offer of a settlement before legal proceedings are initiated. It might be worth consulting a solicitor about it. For one thing, there are time limits in which proceedings must be taken. And my previous point about being charged for an entire fare when your leap card covers a large portion of it might be a mitigating factor.

Laura4193 · 20-03-2017 3:18pm

lxflyer wrote: »

I think that this page makes it quite easy to find it what the fares are:
http://www.irishrail.ie/fares-and-tickets/fares-info

It isn't exactly hidden.

It isn't exactly advertised either considering every other method of public transport has their act together.

Dublin Bus has their fare zones plastered all over every single busstop explaining zones ans fares.

The Luas has the exact same thing, each stop shows zones and fares.

Bus Eireann, zones and fares right at the stops.

Irish Rail are the only ones who make you go searching for the info.

It was my first time having someone else, i.e. work, buy travel for me and certainly my first time using TaxSaver.
I assumed they did their own type of tickets, I wasn't aware it was the Short Hop Zone, again not very advertised unless you go searching.

So no, Irish Rail in fact do not make it easy for you.
Hindsight is a great thing

Laura4193 · 20-03-2017 3:22pm

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

Is the online system not just realted to the incident you got the fixed charge penalty for? The letter is probably just an offer of a settlement before legal proceedings are initiated. It might be worth consulting a solicitor about it. For one thing, there are time limits in which proceedings must be taken. And my previous point about being charged for an entire fare when your leap card covers a large portion of it might be a mitigating factor.

You would think but the letter tells me I can phone up and quote the reference which I did two days after and they only charged me €108??

Yes I'm getting legal advice Thursday evening but I'm hoping it doesn't go as far as court.

LXFlyer · 20-03-2017 3:34pm

Laura4193 wrote: »

It isn't exactly advertised either considering every other method of public transport has their act together.

Dublin Bus has their fare zones plastered all over every single busstop explaining zones ans fares.

The Luas has the exact same thing, each stop shows zones and fares.

Bus Eireann, zones and fares right at the stops.

Irish Rail are the only ones who make you go searching for the info.

It was my first time having someone else, i.e. work, buy travel for me and certainly my first time using TaxSaver.
I assumed they did their own type of tickets, I wasn't aware it was the Short Hop Zone, again not very advertised unless you go searching.

So no, Irish Rail in fact do not make it easy for you.
Hindsight is a great thing

With respect they have a large tab at the top of their home page on their website saying "Fares and Tickets" - which is pretty intuitive.

How much easier do you want it?

Bus Eireann certainly do not have their entire fares matrix on stops or buses nor do Dublin Bus - you still have to go to the website to check how many fare stages you are travelling for a particular journey, or which prepaid ticket is best for you.

Laura4193 · 20-03-2017 3:45pm

lxflyer wrote: »

With respect they have a large tab at the top of their home page on their website saying "Fares and Tickets" - which is pretty intuitive.

How much easier do you want it?

Bus Eireann certainly do not have their entire fares matrix on stops or buses nor do Dublin Bus - you still have to go to the website to check how many fare stages you are travelling for a particular journey, or which prepaid ticket is best for you.

You keep missing the point here.

Why would I check the website when I assumed my ticket was covered?
I thought TaxSaver worked as a direct account from your employer.

As I have explained to you over and over again I didn't know it was a SHZ ticket.

The system is not user friendly and not easy to understand unless you're familiar.

You clearly are and that's great, I wish I had noticed your informative and sarcastic posts before I embarked on that train but I didn't.

I went on an incorrect assumption and I admitted that but it doesn't change the fact that Irish Rail DO NOT make it easy for you to understand the zones.

They should be advertised elsewhere other than their website or online simple as.
Not everyone has access to the internet.

And DB do explain the fares and zones at the end of each timetable advertised on their stops, yes it's easier to calculate on their app or website but you can still manually calculate via their busstops.

LXFlyer · 20-03-2017 3:54pm

Laura4193 wrote: »

You keep missing the point here.

Why would I check the website when I assumed my ticket was covered?
I thought TaxSaver worked as a direct account from your employer.

As I have explained to you over and over again I didn't know it was a SHZ ticket.

The system is not user friendly and not easy to understand unless you're familiar.

You clearly are and that's great, I wish I had noticed your informative and sarcastic posts before I embarked on that train but I didn't.

I went on an incorrect assumption and I admitted that but it doesn't change the fact that Irish Rail DO NOT make it easy for you to understand the zones.

They should be advertised elsewhere other than their website or online simple as.
Not everyone has access to the internet.

And DB do explain the fares and zones at the end of each timetable advertised on their stops, yes it's easier to calculate on their app or website but you can still manually calculate via their busstops.

Hold on - I am not being the least bit sarcastic.

I'm actually being very clear about it - the mistake you made was that you assumed something and didn't bother to check whether that was right.

If I go into a shop I will check the price of an item before I buy it.

In the same way, if I'm paying for a service I go and check what the price is beforehand.

I don't go around making assumptions, which is what you did. Irish Rail have a very clearly labelled webpage with all of their fares and tickets listed.

And you are quite simply wrong about calculating the fares on Dublin Bus.

You cannot calculate what fare is correct on Dublin Bus without either going to the website, getting a paper version of the timetable or asking a driver. Why? Because there are no stage markings on any bus stop.

One stage does not equal one bus stop - it can be anything from 4 or 5 bus stops. The only way you can check that is to look at the stage listing which is on the online or paper timetables.

With Bus Eireann there are no stage listings publicly available - you have to check online using their fare calculator.

Sorry for being blunt about this, but assuming things just doesn't work in life.

Irish Rail fares are very simple.

There is a Dublin Suburban "Short Hop Zone" fare table, a Cork Suburban fare table, and for everything else Intercity fares apply.

JimsAlterEgo · 20-03-2017 4:02pm

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

Would you not only be liable for the fare between Kilcock and Maynooth as the leap card covered you from Maynooth?

I would have thought this also

LXFlyer · 20-03-2017 4:04pm

JimsAlterEgo wrote: »

I would have thought this also

I am pretty sure that split tickets like that aren't allowed.

If that were the case everyone would be getting a Short Hop ticket and a Kilcock-Maynooth season ticket rather than a Kilcock-Dublin season ticket.

Laura4193 · 20-03-2017 4:08pm

lxflyer wrote: »

Hold on - I am not being the least bit sarcastic.

I'm actually being very clear about it - the mistake you made was that you assumed something and didn't bother to check whether that was right.

If I go into a shop I will check the price of an item before I buy it.

In the same way, if I'm paying for a service I go and check what the price is beforehand.

I don't go around making assumptions, which is what you did. Irish Rail have a very clearly labelled webpage with all of their fares and tickets listed.

And you are quite simply wrong about calculating the fares on Dublin Bus.

You cannot calculate what fare is correct on Dublin Bus without either going to the website, getting a paper version of the timetable or asking a driver. Why? Because there are no stage markings on any bus stop.

One stage does not equal one bus stop - it can be anything from 4 or 5 bus stops. The only way you can check that is to look at the stage listing which is on the online or paper timetables.

With Bus Eireann there are no stage listings publicly available - you have to check online using their fare calculator.

Sorry for being blunt about this, but assuming things just doesn't work in life.

For the millionth time, I was not buying any ticket.
It was NOT my money.

Yes if it had of been my money of course I would have checked because I'd like to know what my money is going on but again it was not my money, it was my employer's and I left everything to them and had thought any charges would just go to them, thats how I thought TaxSaver worked.

If I had any inclination that something wasn't right I would have checked, but nothing seemed wrong, no barriers beeped back at me, no nothing!

If I had any clue I was doing something wrong do you honestly think I would have have risked having to pay out of my own pocket? Considering my travel was free anyway??

I know now I should have checked but nothing seemed wrong so I never felt the need!

Your posts don't exactly give any help or information on what to do next, only on what I should have done and as I said before it's no use to me now.

I simply cannot afford to pay anything out of my own pocket.
I've an exam in three weeks on which my job depends and right now all I can think about is how I will fix this without having to move home considering anything over €200 would be the last straw for me now.

This is a mistake that i simply could not afford to make but now it's done and I am on here pleading for help on what to do next so if you have nothing helpful to say then just don't say anything.

Fred Swanson · 20-03-2017 4:11pm

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L1011 · 20-03-2017 4:13pm

Laura4193 wrote: »

Your posts don't exactly give any help or information on what to do next, only on what I should have done and as I said before it's no use to me now.

I'm not sure what answer you want, but you are definitely looking for a specific one - you're being told the facts of the matter and don't seem to want to take them.

You could make an offer to pay the unpaid fares in instalments - that's about the best that can be done. There is sufficient evidence from the Leap history for them to bill you quite precisely.

Laura4193 · 20-03-2017 4:14pm

lxflyer wrote: »

I am pretty sure that split tickets like that aren't allowed.

If that were the case everyone would be getting a Short Hop ticket and a Kilcock-Maynooth season ticket rather than a Kilcock-Dublin season ticket.

How do you get a Kilcock- Dublin season ticket? Are there any info on these cause so far now all I can find is the SHZ tickets (ironically enough)

L1011 · 20-03-2017 4:15pm

Laura4193 wrote: »

How do you get a Kilcock- Dublin season ticket? Are there any info on these cause so far now all I can find is the SHZ tickets (ironically enough)

From a booking office; or via the taxsaver system if appropriate. They appear to be still selling annuals despite Kilcock entering the SHZ within a year.

Laura4193 · 20-03-2017 4:16pm

L1011 wrote: »

I'm not sure what answer you want, but you are definitely looking for a specific one - you're being told the facts of the matter and don't seem to want to take them.

You could make an offer to pay the unpaid fares in instalments - that's about the best that can be done. There is sufficient evidence from the Leap history for them to bill you quite precisely.

The evidence they're going on though is the assumption that any time I didn't tag on or I didn't tag off that I was getting on to and from Kilcock which isn't true.

There were times gates would be open either at Tara or Maynooth and I'd run through without tagging.
Again, thinking it's a season ticket, it's already paid for.

Laura4193 · 20-03-2017 4:18pm

L1011 wrote: »

From a booking office; or via the taxsaver system if appropriate. They appear to be still selling annuals despite Kilcock entering the SHZ within a year.

Well see this is what I thought I had, some sort of season ticket that covered a large area.

It's just a massive massive stupid ignorant misunderstanding but I just think it's ridiculous that my job had actually been paying a lot every month for a ticket and now they're acting like there was never a ticket to start with.

LXFlyer · 20-03-2017 4:18pm

Laura4193 wrote: »

How do you get a Kilcock- Dublin season ticket? Are there any info on these cause so far now all I can find is the SHZ tickets (ironically enough)

Check the Dublin-Sligo line fare tables on the fares page on the website.

It will give you the various fares.

To buy it - go to a booking office or via the tax saver website.

Fred Swanson · 20-03-2017 4:21pm

This post has been deleted.

flexcon · 20-03-2017 4:41pm

Fred Swanson wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

And I think in all honestly - this part is a joke.

Seems the OP point is going missing here on this part, work took care of everything. No signs ever that something was going wrong. And that alone is heartbreaking for the OP I am sure, as there clearly wasn't an intent going on what they said.

Factually yes, you are screwed if they wanted the money. But if we all ended up cold like this, then what a bloody great society it would be eh? Hence why grey areas exist in the first place.

I mean in court, if you plead guilty, and are found guilty, you often get leniency for admitting guilt when the sentence gets given to you.

In this case, the OP offered all evidence up and showed how plausible the error was made. Its this point I would be putting forward to Irish rail - requesting leniency.

I hope you get this sorted, and you come out with some arrangement that suits both parties. IMHO, getting punished like with a whopper of a fine, a threat of court is unwarranted and Irish rail should meet somewhere to fix this situation.

I get it that those out there will insist that a fair was evaded,but we all know in Ireland, they do make things overcomplicated at times, and a situation like this was bound to happen eventually. Why? Well the OP is a prime example of this, no intent to do wrong, but punished in the same way as someone who would intently try and avoid the fare. as a society I'd love to see us stick up for those people, and distinguish between those that dodge fares on purpose.

Lastly to add, looks like this station was one, just one beyond the zone where it was valid for. Not as if the OP has stated they think they can go to cork and that is it. And funnily enough, this station is now actually being added to the list soon anyway? I think common sense back from Irish rail would be needed here too

LXFlyer · 20-03-2017 5:19pm

Laura4193 wrote: »

For the millionth time, I was not buying any ticket.
It was NOT my money.

Yes if it had of been my money of course I would have checked because I'd like to know what my money is going on but again it was not my money, it was my employer's and I left everything to them and had thought any charges would just go to them, thats how I thought TaxSaver worked.

If I had any inclination that something wasn't right I would have checked, but nothing seemed wrong, no barriers beeped back at me, no nothing!

If I had any clue I was doing something wrong do you honestly think I would have have risked having to pay out of my own pocket? Considering my travel was free anyway??

I know now I should have checked but nothing seemed wrong so I never felt the need!

Your posts don't exactly give any help or information on what to do next, only on what I should have done and as I said before it's no use to me now.

I simply cannot afford to pay anything out of my own pocket.
I've an exam in three weeks on which my job depends and right now all I can think about is how I will fix this without having to move home considering anything over €200 would be the last straw for me now.

This is a mistake that i simply could not afford to make but now it's done and I am on here pleading for help on what to do next so if you have nothing helpful to say then just don't say anything.

Presumably though you told work in the first place what journey you were going to make (which was I assume you said was from Maynooth) so that they could buy your ticket, and you subsequently (and independently) decided to take the train from Kilcock.

Look I do sympathise with your situation, it's the argument that you're putting forward to defend yourself that I have a problem with, in terms of assuming a ticket would be valid anywhere.

You ask what you should do - go and get independent legal advice asap. That is the best thing you can do now.

CIARAN_BOYLE · 20-03-2017 5:24pm

Who told your work what ticket to buy. If they represented to you that you would be covered and you weren't maybe you can hold them responsible.
Then it becomes a matter if you can extract anything out of them without screwing up your employment. Maybe you should just stay silent.

flexcon · 20-03-2017 5:27pm

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

Who told your work what ticket to buy. If they represented to you that you would be covered and you weren't maybe you can hold them responsible.
Then it becomes a matter if you can extract anything out of them without screwing up your employment. Maybe you should just stay silent.

I wonder though if she told work originally of the station she is using, would they have paid that anyway? And if they would have, then they should perhaps look into paying the fair that was owed all along, but the OP pays the fine itself of €100.

Depends on the size of the company and its structure of course.

Laura4193 · 20-03-2017 5:30pm

flexcon wrote: »

And I think in all honestly - this part is a joke.

Seems the OP point is going missing here on this part, work took care of everything. No signs ever that something was going wrong. And that alone is heartbreaking for the OP I am sure, as there clearly wasn't an intent going on what they said.

Factually yes, you are screwed if they wanted the money. But if we all ended up cold like this, then what a bloody great society it would be eh? Hence why grey areas exist in the first place.

I mean in court, if you plead guilty, and are found guilty, you often get leniency for admitting guilt when the sentence gets given to you.

In this case, the OP offered all evidence up and showed how plausible the error was made. Its this point I would be putting forward to Irish rail - requesting leniency.

I hope you get this sorted, and you come out with some arrangement that suits both parties. IMHO, getting punished like with a whopper of a fine, a threat of court is unwarranted and Irish rail should meet somewhere to fix this situation.

I get it that those out there will insist that a fair was evaded,but we all know in Ireland, they do make things overcomplicated at times, and a situation like this was bound to happen eventually. Why? Well the OP is a prime example of this, no intent to do wrong, but punished in the same way as someone who would intently try and avoid the fare. as a society I'd love to see us stick up for those people, and distinguish between those that dodge fares on purpose.

Lastly to add, looks like this station was one, just one beyond the zone where it was valid for. Not as if the OP has stated they think they can go to cork and that is it. And funnily enough, this station is now actually being added to the list soon anyway? I think common sense back from Irish rail would be needed here too

Thank you!

Laura4193 · 20-03-2017 5:36pm

flexcon wrote: »

I wonder though if she told work originally of the station she is using, would they have paid that anyway? And if they would have, then they should perhaps look into paying the fair that was owed all along, but the OP pays the fine itself of €100.

Depends on the size of the company and its structure of course.

Yes they would have paid, that's the unfortunate thing!
I had only just moved after getting the job and had just known I could get a train or a bus from Maynooth, I didn't even know Kilcock was a train station at this point so I told work Maynooth cause that was the only station I was sure of.

After finding parking difficult and realising Kilcock was actually closer and handier for parking I started hopping on there, genuinely believing I was doing nothing wrong.

Now that they're backdating the fares it's too much for work, its €700 lump sum and I work for a small company so that would be a lot especially for someone who's only in the door and already hanging by a thread.

TonyStark · 20-03-2017 5:41pm

Laura4193 wrote: »

So there's been an update so far..

I called on Thursday 16/03 to pay as the Notice was finally showing online for me.

The guys in the Head Office only quoted me for €108.10, the original fine plus the fare.

I've paid that and now on their online service it says I'm fully paid up.

But, here's my problem, I got a letter dated 14th March telling me to pay up €696.60 (86 trips of €8.10) as they've gone back on the assumption of me not tagging on or off would be the same Kilcock to Dublin route.

Because I've been told since the letter has been written that I'm paid up do yous think this will actually be the end of it now?
I can't understand why their online system would quote me the full amount otherwise?

So they are fining you for "assumed" usage? Ring head office and get them to send you a letter with a statement of what you owe them. Presumably this is zero. Unless they can prove every single one of those journeys via CCTV or other means refuse to pay. By all means pay the fine they caught you for. Everything else let them whistle for it.

Laura4193 · 20-03-2017 5:45pm

TonyStark wrote: »

So they are fining you for "assumed" usage? Ring head office and get them to send you a letter with a statement of what you owe them. Presumably this is zero. Unless they can prove every single one of those journeys via CCTV or other means refuse to pay. By all means pay the fine they caught you for. Everything else let them whistle for it.

Yeah that's what I'm thinking.. Like I paid the fine as soon as I could and even when I ring you're not allowed to speak to the fines unit at all and anyone else just thinks I've paid up because they only have access to the original fine so I'd have to go chasing them to pay them which I think is even more madness!

Indricotherium · 20-03-2017 5:45pm

TonyStark wrote: »

So they are fining you for "assumed" usage? Ring head office and get them to send you a letter with a statement of what you owe them. Presumably this is zero. Unless they can prove every single one of those journeys via CCTV or other means refuse to pay. By all means pay the fine they caught you for. Everything else let them whistle for it.

Prove every single one of the journeys by CCTV? Ya mad scone, read the back of your ticket.

Tag on tag off.

There's an admission already made that the journeys were from Kilcock.

hullaballoo · 20-03-2017 5:46pm

Does anyone know what powers IR have in relation to the recovery of unpaid fares? They are governed by their own set of laws but in the ordinary course, you'd think that they are only entitled to the difference between the fare paid and what ought to have been paid. That's how it would work with any private company seeking to recover this kind of debt. Unless they are specifically entitled to seek the full value of the fare that ought to have been paid without any kind of set-off in relation to the sums actually paid in respect of the trips, I find it hard to see how they could stand over the position that they are entitled to it?

Irish Rail Fixed Penalty Notice, Rail Safety Act 2005

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