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Shocked By Conversation With Wife
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21-07-2019 1:06pm#1My wife and I know each other 20 years and are happily married with kids.
We were out having a few drinks the weekend when we got talking all the sexual assault / abuse cases coming to light in the past year.
My wife then said to me 'sure all girls have been assaulted at some point even I was a few times'.
I was very surprised and asked her when.
She told me they were all around the time she was 16.
Her and her friend used to go to a known pub in Dublin where they let underage people in.
She said one night a guy and her were kissing in an out of the way part of this place.
He then basically grabbed her, pushed and down and made her give him Oral Sex.
She said it only lasted maybe 10 seconds until she got him away.
The most surprising thing is she just shrugs this off and says sure all fellas were like that back then and it happened all the time to girls.
She also said a few times fellas would force themselves on her when kissing them and hold her down and put their fingers inside her. She said 'it was easily back then to just let them do it and would eventually go away'.
I was a very shy and quiet lad when I was that age and didn't go to pubs and really meet girls until I was 18. I am completely in sock at this conversation. I asked her did she tell anybody about what that first guy did to her and she said she told her friend. But again they seemed to just shrug this off.
I am a very open minded person and it take a lot to shock me but I cannot stop thing about this. I want to find this creep but she has no idea who he was.
Just wanted to know if I am over reacting as it was over 20 years ago? Was this the norm with young girls?
Any advice would be great.1
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I can’t speak if that was the norm for the majority of women back then, but whether it was or not, your wife telling herself it was allows her to shrug it off and cope with her day-to-day life. Of course it’s shocking to hear that she’s been through this, but if she seems fine then I’d just leave it be. It’s not your place to deal with it in any way, it’s not something that affects your relationship or life, and bringing it up or trying to do anything about it could only risk unsettling how your wife deals with it. So I’d say just process it and let it go. You won’t find these people, your wife seems fine and is obviously in a good situation now, no good will come from anything else. And, if there is something to be done, let it come from your wife and just support her through whatever she decides.0
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I'm not sure if there is anything you (or she) can do now - 20 years, no physical evidence - and I'm not sure if there is any point dwelling on it if she doesn't see any benefit to it.
As to whether it was common, I would say that yes it was. It's also partly why Metoo gained so much traction - so many women and girls know the feeling and therefore can relate. I was never assaulted to the point your wife was, never had anything stuck into me thankfully, but the number of times I was groped, breasts squeezed, hands between the legs etc is huge. The first time it happened to me I must have been under 10, following my parents and getting off the bus, and a man an the steps behind me groped me between the legs asking me in my ear "do you like it". I just kept going and never told anyone because I was shellshocked and also primed by First Communion preparations no less, when they were asking you about having unclean thoughts etc. I never told my parents but I actually told the priest in my next confession as if it was something I caused! The extent of brainwashing we went through was unreal.
Later on you would know to deflect attention, "be nice" but keep your distance, never ever stay behind at house parties, not to go to any boys house to study etc. Later on again you would learn to watch out for (admittedly low level by that time) creeps at work. All because you would have seen things or heard stories of what happened to your friends or their circles.
I don't know the extent of it now, thankfully I am aging out of a lot of interactions and I can also stand up for myself a lot better, but looking at the levels of abuse reported think about the levels unreported...
If you want to do something - react immediately to anything dodgy you see and ask your wife to teach you to read the signs from a woman's perspective. And raise your children differently if they are still young - discuss these things with them unblinkingly and with actual scenarios, not just "be respectful" or "don't bow to pressure".0 -
It’s good you’re shocked. I’m not. A lot of sh1t went down and was shrugged off as “well maybe you shouldn’t have lead him on / been in the pub in the first place / worn that dress” until very recent times, and sadly that mentality still exists among certain demographics and even within our justice system.
There are certain things that I’ve shrugged off as “sh1t happens” in the same vein as your wife going back decades. Am I secretly traumatised and repressing such memories as a coping mechanism? No. I’m pretty emotionally robust and self aware. There just was no other option at the time but to minimise and file in the “****ing creep” folder and move on. I’ve also been really lucky to have some great male role models and to know that these are not the actions of good men or indeed most men.
You sound like a good man. Your wife may have processed these things in a similar way to me - minimise, distance herself from the memories and move on. If you think there’s a chance they’ve affected her more deeply, perhaps it warrants having another frank conversation. But IME there’s a good chance this is something she’s got perspective on and she’s been able to compartmentalise and isolate as just one of those things that happened decades ago that we had no language for until recently.0 -
When I was a teenager (in early thirties now) plenty of guys tried the ol push your hands, push their hands stuff. As an adult in bars, I've had my arse grabbed boobs grabbed even my face grabbed countless times. A couple of slaps hVe been given in response. The usual response after that is ugly b%tch or effin slut. Has happen me in other countries one time I was groped on India during a large march being on and many many men around and right in front of my husband, frightening...
Welcome to being a woman0 -
It was very common, it doesn't mean it was right. Other things that would have been unthinkable back then like unsolicited dick pics, revenge porn are very common now, and also not right.
Your reaction so far is emotional rather than material, you're not out there looking for someone to beat up or anything. I don't think reacting with shock and protectiveness is overreacting at all. However you are going to have to adjust your expectations, you're not going to be able to find any of these guys.
Are you hesitant to talk more with your wife about this? If so is there anyone else you could bounce these feelings off? Fyi sorry but any woman you're close to who you talk to about this will probably have similar stories so bear that in mind.
You say you have kids, please do apply the perspective you've gotten here to how you show and teach them about this aspect of life. You're a decent man, like most men, I'm not saying you'd impart bad perspectives but being actively conscious of this is important. Whatever your own dad did with you, do with them, bearing in mind the role of porn, social media etc.0 -
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I can only echo what the other women here have said - I also firmly believe that 99% of women my age and older could tell similar stories.
Now the oral sex incident sounds extreme but I've definitly had lads trying to get their hands inside my knickers or grab me by my breasts. Let alone the random arse slapping and other groping in pubs/clubs that was prevalent. I also had some bad experiences in my younger years that I was totally illequpt to deal with. At the Gaeltacht aged 13, I was lunged at on the way home, straight grab at my breasts as well as shoving his tongue down my throat. Completely from nowhere. I freaked out and pushed him back so hard that he fell into a ditch. I never did anything about it because my assumption back then was that because he was popular, making a complaint about him would have been social suicide.
This is only one example but throughout my teens and early twenties it wasnt uncommon for boys/men to overstep. I might have agreed to a kiss, but that doesn't equate to your hand in my pants or mind forcibly shoved down yours.
Like others have said, when you rebuked such advances, you were an ugly bitch, a lesbian or frigid.
I also remember being followed around an Italian city when on holiday with my parents. I was maybe 15 years old and and this man must have been 30+. He deliberately stayed out of my parents line of site but managed to pop up in front of my about 7/8 times, each time making lude gestures such as flicking his tongue between two fingers (basically the international signal for oral sex) which to 15 year old me was not something I had the language to talk to my parents about. I just stuck to my mother like glue, but never said anything. I was mortified and freaked out and just wanted to go home.
I only know now as an adult that silence only enables creeps like the above. I wouldnt say I'm traumatised (or by extension that your wife is either) like the others, we've found ways of compartmentalizing these experiences and moving along with our lives.
There is literally Zero point in you channeling Liam Neeson and going on some wild goose chase to find these men - you won't. But what you can do is call out any bad behavior you see in your life and raise your kids to be better than our generation.
It really annoys me to hear people (mostly men) say that the Me Too movement is nothing but PC gone mad and just radical feminists/social justice warriors. You know now that it isnt, so challenge this perception if you hear it, and basically just be the best man you can be for your wife in 2019.0 -
Its very common OP. My grandmother had stories my mom has stories my aunts and cousins have stories.
So do I. So do all my friends.
I can totally understand how hearing something bad happening to a loved one can traumatize you. I totally get that.
I can understand that you wish you could go back in time and protect her. I understand wanting to have some kind of justice for her and to see justice served to the guy.
I will give you a warning though.
Sometimes loved ones can become obsessed with traumatic events that happen to their family. Whether it be their mothers or fathers or grandparents or children or like you your wife.
Its not something people talk about but I have seen people become obsessed with knowing every detail of say their Dad having grown up in a christian brothers home or something like that. Or of abuse their parent or wife suffered in their childhood.
Its sort of like its a piece of the puzzle to that person that when you analyze it makes sense and you can see a lot of the seeds for some issues in the home.
I am not sure if this rings true for you. But i know its known in psychology that children of survivors of abuse become very emotionally affected by it even though it didn't happen to them. And they can't explain why so they become kind of obsessed.
I've seen people make huge life decisions to be the protector etc that wasn't there by becoming police officers or teachers etc.
So no its not unusual for YOU to be very genuinely emotionally damaged and traumatized by what has happened to your wife. Its very real and counselors etc recognize this.
I know people will tell you to be there for your wife etc. And of course you should and I know you will be.
But its ok to be there for yourself in this too and maybe talk to someone who might help you understand the feelings you are having.
And every single person who has ever had a loved one hurt deeply is feeling or has felt the exact same way. You just keep thinking about it over and over. Not just thinking it. You feel it over and over.
My love to your wife and yourself.0 -
'Just wanted to know if I am over reacting as it was over 20 years ago? Was this the norm with young girls?'
'Any advice would be great.'
I'm very sorry that your wife had that experience, OP.
I'm not 100% clear in relation to what you are actually seeking advice on?
How will it help you/ your wife to know if this was 'the norm with young girls?'
Genuine question.0 -
Yes, it was relatively common. A lot of women have accepted it and gotten on with life.
I don’t think there’s much point in getting angry at a man she’d barely remember from 20 years ago. She’s with you now, she chose you, and that’s what matters. Do your best to raise your kids well so that this messing will die out.0 -
Yeah, same here, your wife is right. I can't actually count all the times that something happened to me that would qualify as a #metoo issue, but I can tell you that I can count about 10 alone that happened when I was underage. If I counted all the things that happened after that, it would be far far more. Friends would have had many similar experiences.
But I don't need a white knight twenty years on wanting to go out and bate the sh!te out of someone to appease his own anger just because it happened to someone he cares about. It was the way it was, it did leave some of us with lingering issues and thankfully a fair bit of it is publically unacceptable today.
But it wasn't the one faceless nameless lad doing all the sexual assaults on us all. The truth of it is that the fella who forced your girlfriend could have been any one of your friends. It's Brian that you know from your schooldays who makes a beeline for the drunkest girl at every party and takes her upstairs when you all know she's too drunk to consent but you say and do nothing. It's hilarious Donal who shares the photos of his naked ex girlfriend on whatsapp and you all comment on her body. It's Sean at work who makes sexual comments the new girls's nice tits and what he'd like to do to them. It's Mark your friend's flatmate who pesters and gropes a woman who's clearly told him she's not interested. Many men see those friends of theirs treat women badly in front of them and still consider them sound lads. Those are the ones who do the more serious things in private. My point is that if low level sexual assault is common and commonplace amongst women then there has to be a correlation in the amount of perpetrators and that you more than likely know at least a few of them and consider them sound out.
Before the NAMALT crowd jump in, I know that. There are many men and you sound like you'd be one of them - that have a nice group of friends who aren't apes and treat all women with consideration and respect. But many more think that the low level stuff is harmless and a bit of craic, but it's not. The man who sticks his hand up a passing womans' skirt is a predator but the friends who find his behaviour acceptable or even funny are complicit and for that to fully change also needs the men to tell their friends it's not cool when the've crossed the line with any woman, not just when it happens to happen to a woman they personally know.0 -
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I think your reaction is a natural one, especially for us males. God knows, if someone abused anyone I was close to I would also want to beat that person with their own limbs. But reactions are just that - reactions.
How you manage that reaction and then move forward is within your control, and as said above, swooping in like some white knight will only appease your own anger over someone you love being mistreated. It won't help them forget it, it won't help them get past it, and in this case (where your partner outwardly appears to have moved on from it a long time ago anyway) it will actually magnify the issue, which is somewhat self-defeating.
The best thing you can do here is ensure your partner knows you're there for her if she ever needs to talk about it or deal with it in any shape and form, and be that reassurance for her.
As to your original question, yes it probably was somewhat commonplace. Men who abuse or mistreat women and children sicken me and I've never been in that position, but I've been at nights out and parties and things and seen it happen often. Even got involved in a fight with an idiot at work when I caught him physically hurting a random female after a work party one night, thankfully he's now long gone. I know that sounds fairly contradictory to what I'm preaching above but it was one of those situations where there was nothing to do but intervene in the 5 or 10 second window in which it happened.
I'd like to be optimistic and say that general awareness and such has improved now and men are more respectful in general, but one look at the papers on any given day would tell me I'm probably wrong.0 -
strandroad wrote: », but the number of times I was groped, breasts squeezed, hands between the legs etc is huge. The first time it happened to me I must have been under 10, following my parents and getting off the bus, and a man an the steps behind me groped me between the legs asking me in my ear "do you like it".
Bloody hell. Maybe Im naive but I didnt know this actually went on. Maybe in a place like India, but didnt think it went on here. I guess you just dont know how the other half actually experiences the world when it comes right down to it. 10 year old girls should not be exposed to sh1t like that, those men were warped human beings.0 -
It's happened to me more times than I can remember. I've spoken about it with female friends and it's happened to them to. Everything from a sexual comment to rape.
If we got affected by everything that happens to us we'd be basket cases. Personally I've had one experience that required professional help, the rest I've had to compartmentalise so I can have some semblance of a normal life. This would include, at worse, a man forcing his hand inside me.
There was a time we were told we had to just accept this type of thing, it's getting better now I can identify with your wife. There is nothing to be done about it now.
All you can do is use it as a teachable moment. Women are regularly subjected to unwanted sexual advances and we have learnt a coping mechanism.0 -
OP it's one of those moments in life that you see through the looking glass and realise life is not like you think it is. I had a similarly horrific experience where my young adult daughter told me about what kind of stuff goes on in her world. Don't have anything else to offer.0
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Bloody hell. Maybe Im naive but I didnt know this actually went on. Maybe in a place like India, but didnt think it went on here. I guess you just dont know how the other half actually experiences the world when it comes right down to it. 10 year old girls should not be exposed to sh1t like that, those men were warped human beings.
I was about the same age first time I got groped. In the late 90s. In Dublin. Walking beside my mother. And same, I didn't know what to do so I just said nothing. Not an uncommon age/experience.
This stuff is never as common as it is when you're a young girl/teen. It's actually for me one of the most infuriating parts of it, by the time you get to the point where you're able to respond to it with "you're about to lose that fcuking hand, mate!" it peters off. I've seen men surmise that this is obviously because your looks are fading at that point. But it's because it's deliberately predatory behaviour.0 -
The childhood sexual abuse survivor's charity One In Four is so named because it's estimated that one in four people in the country were sexually abused as a child. I personally wouldn't be surprised if this number was higher (especially regarding certain generations). Add in the number of (mostly women, but some men) sexually assaulted as adults, and you really have a sizable percentage of the population.
As a man who (thankfully) went through my entire life without such a thing happening to me, I was shocked when I first started hearing the experiences of friends and partners as I grew up. But nothing shocks me about it any more - I've heard so many stories directly from so many people. Sickens me yes, but doesn't shock me.
This is what the Me Too movement is all about. It's not a trendy hash tag. It's a fact that there's a massive number of people in all our lives - people we all know and love - that were sexually abused in some form at some stage of their life, and it's something that isn't properly recognised by society at large. Even now that it is being talked about, it's dismissed by some.
It's not an unusual reaction to want to go all Liam Neeson and get physical revenge, but it's not realistic and it's actually not helpful - you end up making it more about you and your anger than what your wife went though. Best thing you can do is support your wife in any way she needs - and usually women don't need a knight in shining armour that will slay their dragons.
Start by listening, and take it from there. Some people need counseling, some people can handle it by themselves. Some people were abused by a total stranger, some by family members they may still have to be in contact with (which is exceptionally traumatic). Some by both. Not everyone has the ability to go to the Gardaí about what happened to them - either because of the results of the passage of time, or the added trauma it will cause them to do so. No matter what their choices, stance or position on what they want to do and how they handle it (assuming it isn't self-destructive), support them.0 -
Bloody hell. Maybe Im naive but I didnt know this actually went on. Maybe in a place like India, but didnt think it went on here. I guess you just dont know how the other half actually experiences the world when it comes right down to it. 10 year old girls should not be exposed to sh1t like that, those men were warped human beings.
I'm glad that this thread is opening your eyes, honestly.
I agree with electro-bitch that the actual groping was the worst in your young teenage years. Why wouldn't you cop a feel if the girl looked meek and reporting wasn't a thing. But I think that the real danger manifests itself later: at least as a child or young teen you always have some adults around, you'd have to be targeted by a predator to come to serious harm. But when you're an older teen to young student, you are now on your own with no adults around, and also alcohol makes its appearance. This is when you can get seriously assaulted or raped, within your own extended social circle which makes it even worse in terms of reporting or believing the victims.0 -
I’m not young. And I don’t think I’ve experienced the worst of what women I know have described.
It is awful, truly awful, that we - as women - write it off. But that’s what we all did back in the day. Look, nothing dreadful ever happened to me, but I remember being pinned on a Nitelink, about 18 years old and very naive, while a lecherous git around 20 yrs older felt my leg and tried to run his hand higher. I remember freezing in utter horror and just not knowing what to do. No he didn’t “assault”me. He scared the crap outta me, made me feel weird and like ****, made me afraid, made me feel so weird that I was freaked out when I next had sex with my BF
It really does take women and men pulling either sex upon bad behaviour. For what it’s worth, I’ve seen nights out where women of my acquaintance feel that it’s funny to grope a younger man, or make remarks - it’s NOT.0 -
I stopped going to regular nightclubs or packed late bars in my twenties because of the groping. It could be horrendous in some places.0
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strandroad wrote: »Why wouldn't you cop a feel if the girl looked meek and reporting wasn't a thing.
Because you're not a perverted POS.0 -
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I don't think there are many women who haven't been sexually harassed or assaulted to some extent. Your wife's experiences are at the more extreme end of the scale but they're not so out there that they won't shock any woman. That's quite a disturbing thing to think about, especially if you are the parent of a little girl.
Perhaps the most important thing to bear in mind here is that it didn't damage your wife significantly. She went on to meet you and (I assume) have a normal healthy relationship with you. And maybe when these things happen as random one-offs with strangers, it's different to regular sex abuse.0 -
It really does take women and men pulling either sex upon bad behaviour. For what it’s worth, I’ve seen nights out where women of my acquaintance feel that it’s funny to grope a younger man, or make remarks - it’s NOT.
That's a good point, whilst I'm sure statistically that there's more recorded instances of males harassing females, it does happen the other way round too - more than people think.
I worked in a bar when I was 17-20 and had numerous run-in's with lecherous and usually older drunk females grabbing my groin or bum. One spent at least 30 mins one night at closing time trying to convince me to go back to hers. I laughed it off and it's had no long lasting effects, but with someone shy, anxious or self-conscious it can have a detrimental impact. But there remains a perception amongst many that men will appreciate unwelcome advances because we're supposedly all sex-mad, and women are the opposite.0 -
Happened a lot with both men and women when I worked in the pubs women would think nothing of trying to put a had down your trousers and it got a great laugh from the group she was with and getting your arsed grabbed was also a regular thing...
I know from speaking to my wife and knowing her over 20 years it was very common for girls to be touched up groped when out socialising I have witnessed it in the past myself...it was put up with back then and looked on as a harmless bit of fun and if girls showed any bit of skin people including other women would say you were asking for it.
Countless times my wife’s arse and chest have been grabbed when out .. and countless times she was called stuck up when she followed up with a slap across the face or a drink over the head but she never let it go unchecked and would fairly loudly let them know they were out of order.0 -
I do think young lads are better these days though. At some point a few years ago I stopped reflexively bracing myself when walking alone and having to pass groups of lads in the 18-24 age group. Maybe I just aged out of their cat-calling demographic but there does seem to be less of that menacing energy of young fellas nowadays compared to even ten years ago. It just doesn't seem as socially acceptable to blatantly publicly harass women and more socially acceptable for boys to present themselves and interact with the world in a way that would have been called "gay" in my day, i.e. not being some macho maniac.
I dunno, could be total naivety and I'm sure every woman will still have something happen to her at some point but I think there is reason to be hopeful about the poor maligned millenials.0 -
Now the oral sex incident sounds extreme...
I'm inclined to agree. Groping and lewd comments I can accept are common but I think that what happened there is not really something I would say is common.But it wasn't the one faceless nameless lad doing all the sexual assaults on us all. The truth of it is that the fella who forced your girlfriend could have been any one of your friends. It's Brian that you know from your schooldays who makes a beeline for the drunkest girl at every party and takes her upstairs when you all know she's too drunk to consent but you say and do nothing. It's hilarious Donal who shares the photos of his naked ex girlfriend on whatsapp and you all comment on her body. It's Sean at work who makes sexual comments the new girls's nice tits and what he'd like to do to them. It's Mark your friend's flatmate who pesters and gropes a woman who's clearly told him she's not interested. Many men see those friends of theirs treat women badly in front of them and still consider them sound lads. Those are the ones who do the more serious things in private. My point is that if low level sexual assault is common and commonplace amongst women then there has to be a correlation in the amount of perpetrators and that you more than likely know at least a few of them and consider them sound out.
Before the NAMALT crowd jump in, I know that. There are many men and you sound like you'd be one of them - that have a nice group of friends who aren't apes and treat all women with consideration and respect. But many more think that the low level stuff is harmless and a bit of craic, but it's not. The man who sticks his hand up a passing womans' skirt is a predator but the friends who find his behaviour acceptable or even funny are complicit and for that to fully change also needs the men to tell their friends it's not cool when the've crossed the line with any woman, not just when it happens to happen to a woman they personally know.
The problem with characterisations such as these, in my opinion, with the exception of the work one you describe, is that they fall far short of the real dynamics in play in such groups.
In work, people are forced together with colleagues who may not share their moral outlook. Work also has an organisational hierarchy that is different from the social hierarchy (you may be popular in work but not have any power, whereas popularity is power in your other social groups). This means that people, men and women, may be inclined to let things slide with work colleagues that they wouldn't with friends; for fear of reprimand or ostracisation. And speaking personally, most people don't want you to speak up; in my experience women dismissed it all as a bit of fun and men waited patiently for me to state my objections before resuming their behaviour; don't assume that because I'm a man (and this goes for all men) that other men give a flying f*ck what I think about their behaviour because they mostly don't.
For our friends and other social groups it's different. We do choose to be around them. And we usually choose people with similar moral outlooks to ourselves. So if there's a WhatsApp group where a guy is sharing nudes of his ex and his friends are commenting on them it's because they're comfortable with that; they aren't sitting on in secret judgement. They would probably share such photos themselves but don't, either because they don't have any or because they are afraid of getting caught and the consequences. We're often told when men ask questions about women's behaviour on boards that they aren't an alien species; well, men aren't either. Would you continue to hang out with people whose behaviour you found morally reprehensible? Of course not, you would either try and change their behaviour, have them leave the group or leave the group yourself.
I'm not saying there are no incidences of cognitive dissonance when it comes to this behaviour; just that it's not (in keeping with OP's question) common. If guys are hanging out with guys who behave this way (and they know about the behaviour) it's because they're okay with it.0 -
Thanks for the replies.
To be honest I was never looking for revenge. I guess this was just some little creep who got her while she was drunk.
But still I don't understand why she never said I word about it. I have so many more questions but not sure if I should keep at her about it.
If she was just promiscuous when she was young she could tell me. But again I think the reason girls went with guys to this part of the club was to do more than kissing. I just doesn't add up what she is saying. Could a fella really force her to that ? Why didn't she just close he mouth if she knew what he was trying to do rather than just go along with it.
Maybe I'm being stupid over something so old but my wife is a goddess to me and I can't get this out of my head.0 -
Carpenter81 wrote: »Thanks for the replies.
To be honest I was never looking for revenge. I guess this was just some little creep who got her while she was drunk.
But still I don't understand why she never said I word about it. I have so many more questions but not sure if I should keep at her about it.
If she was just promiscuous when she was young she could tell me. But again I think the reason girls went with guys to this part of the club was to do more than kissing. I just doesn't add up what she is saying. Could a fella really force her to that ? Why didn't she just close he mouth if she knew what he was trying to do rather than just go along with it.
Maybe I'm being stupid over something so old but my wife is a goddess to me and I can't get this out of my head.
You can't really be that niave or do you think your wife made up an attack that never happened?
It's very easy to sexually abuse someone in public. These people rely on the shock factor where the victim literally freezes. Its why so few people who are groped in public make a scene.
If she was alone its even harder. You go into survival mode, you might have to submit to a lesser assault to prevent a more serious one.0 -
Carpenter81 wrote:Maybe I'm being stupid over something so old but my wife is a goddess to me and I can't get this out of my head.
I'm really sorry to be so blunt and I'll take an infraction if the mods see fit, but yes, you are being incredibly stupid and naive. You literally have an entire thread here of women describing pretty much the exact same things happening to them and your thoughts have still somehow managed to turn to promiscuity (wtf?) and your wife somehow secretly wanting these things to happen to her??? Cause, obviously, nice girls don't go to those kind of places...
I'm actually gobsmacked, OP. You seriously, seriously need to educate yourself.0 -
The ‘goddess’ view is probably not helping you to get your head around this OP.
She’s not a goddess or a princess or a queen. She’s the person you fell in love with, a real person who has had this happen to her. And yet you seem to be questioning her motives. That is pretty bad form. And possibly she didn’t tell you because she knows you well enough to have anticipated your reaction.0 -
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Carpenter81 wrote: »Thanks for the replies.
To be honest I was never looking for revenge. I guess this was just some little creep who got her while she was drunk.
But still I don't understand why she never said I word about it. I have so many more questions but not sure if I should keep at her about it.
If she was just promiscuous when she was young she could tell me. But again I think the reason girls went with guys to this part of the club was to do more than kissing. I just doesn't add up what she is saying. Could a fella really force her to that ? Why didn't she just close he mouth if she knew what he was trying to do rather than just go along with it.
Maybe I'm being stupid over something so old but my wife is a goddess to me and I can't get this out of my head.
I seriously can’t believe in a round about way you are saying your wife was asking for it and victim blaming and you are going to have to get over this ,your wife has and you should definitely not “ keep on at her about it “
I don’t think you are being stupid as it has being a shock to you but try not dwell on it.0 -
Carpenter81 wrote: »Thanks for the replies.
To be honest I was never looking for revenge. I guess this was just some little creep who got her while she was drunk.
But still I don't understand why she never said I word about it. I have so many more questions but not sure if I should keep at her about it.
If she was just promiscuous when she was young she could tell me. But again I think the reason girls went with guys to this part of the club was to do more than kissing. I just doesn't add up what she is saying. Could a fella really force her to that ? Why didn't she just close he mouth if she knew what he was trying to do rather than just go along with it.
Maybe I'm being stupid over something so old but my wife is a goddess to me and I can't get this out of my head.
I am literally gobsmacked that so many women have come here to tell you their own experiences over the years and what you’ve take from it is.... that maybe your wife was promiscuous?!!!
Wow.0 -
Well done OP on making your wife's sexual assault all about you and your feelings0
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Carpenter81 wrote: »Thanks for the replies.
To be honest I was never looking for revenge. I guess this was just some little creep who got her while she was drunk.
But still I don't understand why she never said I word about it. I have so many more questions but not sure if I should keep at her about it.
If she was just promiscuous when she was young she could tell me. But again I think the reason girls went with guys to this part of the club was to do more than kissing. I just doesn't add up what she is saying. Could a fella really force her to that ? Why didn't she just close he mouth if she knew what he was trying to do rather than just go along with it.
Maybe I'm being stupid over something so old but my wife is a goddess to me and I can't get this out of my head.
Wow, I thought that you were overwhelmed because you wanted to belatedly defend your wife. But you are in fact questioning her behaviour!
I don't think I ever said anything about the groping incident at 10 to my other half either. It just never came up, and it was so common at the time that I never considered it to be an event worth mentioning if not asked directly. So what?
Why victims don't always react on the spot: because you're shocked, sometimes drunk, and also because you know that any average man can choke you to death or punch you unconscious or tear your hair off your head so you know you need a plan to get away. One more thing that you should learn from this thread OP is that we are very well aware of the fact that on the average we can be easily overpowered.
Are you here to learn how to support your wife though, or to question her version of events?0 -
Well done OP on making your wife's sexual assault all about you and your feelings
This. 1000 times this.
Many years ago, I was raped. It’s something I’ve long since moved on from, thankfully and day to day it doesn’t impact my life. However, about 12/13 years after it happened, I told my then boyfriend about it. It came up in a similar conversation to the one you had with your wife. I wasn’t looking for sympathy or a big reaction from him, I was just telling him what my experience had been. He ranted and raved, reacted with anger towards the perpetrator, made threats towards him (despite him not having a clue who he was)... I can still see him sitting there at the edge of the bed with his fists clenched saying “I’ll fcuking kill him” etc. not once did he do or say anything that would have been of support or comfort to me, it was all about his reaction. I can honestly say that I have never felt as lonely as I did that night, even though the man I loved and who loved me was sleeping inches away from me. I dumped him shortly afterwards.
This situation is about your wife, not your reaction, disbelief or inability to understand.0 -
SirChenjin wrote: »'Just wanted to know if I am over reacting as it was over 20 years ago? Was this the norm with young girls?'
'Any advice would be great.'
I'm very sorry that your wife had that experience, OP.
I'm not 100% clear in relation to what you are actually seeking advice on?
How will it help you/ your wife to know if this was 'the norm with young girls?'
Genuine question.
I'm just reiterating my very genuine question to you, OP.
I'm aware that you do not have to answer, of course.0 -
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Truly amazing that women have come into this thread to advise you on how to handle this with your wife and have even talked about their awful experiences with sexual assault, and instead of taking that on board, your response is first to start acting the John Wick, and then to question your wife's motives and essentially insinuate that there is some kind of blame on her part.
It's absolutely no wonder that women don't come forward, even to their loved ones, about these things.0 -
Carpenter81 wrote: »But still I don't understand why she never said I word about it. I have so many more questions but not sure if I should keep at her about it.
Maybe she knew you'd react like this?
And no, don't even think about keeping at her about it. What good will that do, other than to stir up bad memories for her. And worse still, make her think you're a possessive, insensitive prick. I'm shocked at your attitude to this. Why are you not showing her compassion, instead of thinking about interrogating the poor woman? How would you like it if someone found out about the worst moment of your life and proceeded to harass you over it? Stop it now, before you do damage to your marriage. Your "many more questions" implies that you don't believe her story.
I also find your comments about promiscuity and your wife being a goddess to be somewhat disturbing. Did you ever go to nightclubs yourself? Because if not, the view from that high horse of yours must be something else. Can you not accept that your "goddess" of a wife has a past? Or do you judge her about that too? Do you believe that all females who go to late bars and nightclubs are tarts?
Quite frankly, I feel sorry for the poor woman. This thread filled up with posts from women saying they've been groped/raped/sexually assaulted. Yet you still have the cheek to blame her for how she dealt with it? It's people like you who stop women coming forward. Let's just say my advice to you is to show some compassion to the leaving, breathing, real woman that your wife is. Not this mythological "goddess" you seem to think she is.0 -
Mod note:
I am conscious of the fact that a number of posters in this thread have very kindly shared details of their own experiences similar to those outlined by the OP's spouse, and I am also conscious that for some posts the time limit on the edit function has since elapsed. While I am not for one moment suggesting that posters should not share their experiences in PI, any poster who so wishes should feel free to PM me or one of the mods if they would like an edit made to their post in this thread.
Thanks
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Carpenter81 wrote: »Thanks for the replies.
To be honest I was never looking for revenge. I guess this was just some little creep who got her while she was drunk.
But still I don't understand why she never said I word about it. I have so many more questions but not sure if I should keep at her about it.
If she was just promiscuous when she was young she could tell me. But again I think the reason girls went with guys to this part of the club was to do more than kissing. I just doesn't add up what she is saying. Could a fella really force her to that ? Why didn't she just close he mouth if she knew what he was trying to do rather than just go along with it.
Maybe I'm being stupid over something so old but my wife is a goddess to me and I can't get this out of my head.
It's interesting that you call her a goddess. And that you now consider her somehow promiscuous because a man forced a sexual assault on her.
This reaction of yours is exactly why your wife didn't tell you before now. It's this reaction that keeps us from telling people in real life. And I'd say that if you have even hinted to her at what you've just said here, she's probably regretting ever having told you.0 -
notsoyoungwan wrote: »This. 1000 times this.
Many years ago, I was raped. It’s something I’ve long since moved on from, thankfully and day to day it doesn’t impact my life. However, about 12/13 years after it happened, I told my then boyfriend about it. It came up in a similar conversation to the one you had with your wife. I wasn’t looking for sympathy or a big reaction from him, I was just telling him what my experience had been. He ranted and raved, reacted with anger towards the perpetrator, made threats towards him (despite him not having a clue who he was)... I can still see him sitting there at the edge of the bed with his fists clenched saying “I’ll fcuking kill him” etc. not once did he do or say anything that would have been of support or comfort to me, it was all about his reaction. I can honestly say that I have never felt as lonely as I did that night, even though the man I loved and who loved me was sleeping inches away from me. I dumped him shortly afterwards.
This situation is about your wife, not your reaction, disbelief or inability to understand.
this 1,000,000 times this,
i too dated a guy at 18/19 while my head was a mess due to being sexually abused as a child.
i don't remember much now of that time but i remember the boyfriends reaction when i told him and i remember how awful i felt, he was all indignant and how much he wanted "to kill him" because "good guys do that to the bad guys" he too reacted as described above, and to this day probably still thinks he was in the right to do so.
his reaction and later how the same boyfriend threw it back in my face during a heated argument as an insult to me added to the many reasons i didn't talk about it to people (other than a psychiatrist who i discussed it with as i got the help i needed afterwards as the boyfriend had me second guessing myself and wondering if i had imagined the whole thing, thats where his reaction to me telling him put my head) and confirmed to me he was not good for me. Please don't react to your wife like that.
I told my husband many many many years later and that took a lot from me to tell him after what happened before, i was so nervous but his first reaction was to hug me, his second was to ask me what outcome i wanted from the conversation...
OP this is your wife, this reaction is not helping her, its making it all about you, you need to step back and not see her as some goddess but as she actually is, as we all are, flawed human beings, she was in a horrible situation and dealt with it the only way she could at that time and is dealing with it her way now. understand that.0 -
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Carpenter81 wrote: »I just doesn't add up what she is saying. Could a fella really force her to that ? Why didn't she just close he mouth if she knew what he was trying to do rather than just go along with it.
Ah come on OP, this is disappointing. Read over the thread again. Young girls and women grow up with the understanding and underlying rhetoric that this is normal, it's just something you have to deal with and it's usually your fault for putting yourself in a dangerous situation in the first place.
Speak up and you get the "but whys" - "but why didn't you just say no?", "but why didn't you just yell and run away?", "but why didn't you just close your mouth?" Look at metoo and how that played out online, all over social media, all over certain parts of boards - "but why but why but why?" This is such a huge part of the culture that was allowed to develop in the first place. It's on the woman, who is in a vulnerable, precarious position, to speak up and yell and shout and make a potentially dangerous situation even worse. Rather than on men to simply not assault the woman in the first place.Carpenter81 wrote: »But still I don't understand why she never said I word about it.
Most women don't. It would never occur to me to share this kind of stuff with a partner, as it was just so rampant and so common and so normalised when I was a young teenager / early adult. All of the aforementioned rhetoric led to me dismissing blatant sexual assault as "just some creep, you find them everywhere" as a coping mechanism.
Please set your own prejudices aside and read through the thread again. This is a huge learning opportunity for you if you can stop resorting to lazy thinking like the above.0 -
From another man's perspective :
I think a lot of it stems from the misconceptions many men including myself had that
a. Since they themselves would never do something like that they have a hard time believing any guy would and
b. Guys who do stuff like this got away with it all the time since they spun it as getting lots of easy sex and most women never talked about it until recently.
To further complicate matters, there are guys who genuinely could easily get blowjobs in toilets etc off women who would pretend to be above such things. I've seen that too.
It's a bit of a shock when the love of your life to whom you have told your deepest secrets would hide something like this from you - so it's understandable to have a range of reactions.
They say the best relationships are about open and honest communication - something that had a profound effect on you should be shared with the love of your life.at some point, without judgement.
There was no upside for your wife, she was telling you this because she loves you. For this reason I believe her.
Equally anger on your behalf is a sign of love, but many women don't see it that way. In fact for a man not to be angry on hearing something like this, I would question if he really cares about his partner at all. He isn't angry AT his partner - he is angry that something like that happened to her and he couldn't do anything about it.0 -
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Deleted User wrote: »From another man's perspective :
I think a lot of it stems from the misconceptions many men including myself had that
a. Since they themselves would never do something like that they have a hard time believing any guy would and
b. Guys who do stuff like this got away with it all the time since they spun it as getting lots of easy sex and most women never talked about it until recently.
To further complicate matters, there are guys who genuinely could easily get blowjobs in toilets etc off women who would pretend to be above such things. I've seen that too.
It's a bit of a shock when the love of your life to whom you have told your deepest secrets would hide something like this from you - so it's understandable to have a range of reactions.
They say the best relationships are about open and honest communication - something that had a profound effect on you should be shared with the love of your life.at some point, without judgement.
There was no upside for your wife, she was telling you this because she loves you. For this reason I believe her.
Equally anger on your behalf is a sign of love, but many women don't see it that way. In fact for a man not to be angry on hearing something like this, I would question if he really cares about his partner at all. He isn't angry AT his partner - he is angry that something like that happened to her and he couldn't do anything about it.
I think the fact that some men are more caught up in how THEY feel about something that happened to someone else is why women don't see it as a sign of love.
The woman has a right to be angry at something that has happened to her.
The feelings of the person who wasn't there, didn't experience it and suffered no ill effects from it are secondary.
In telling her partner years later, it's likely that all a woman wants is some empathy, comforting and a listening ear, not to look at her other half get riled up about how angry HE is. The anger is natural; allowing it to take precedence when your wife/oh has just told you something that is very personal, intimate and upsetting to her is a bit selfish.0 -
Your reaction is not an uncommon one OP, but it is disappointing that with several days to process things and with the insight into how common these things were and are that you're still stuck at that stage and that you don't see how problematic it is.
Your feelings are what they are, none of us can help our immediate internal reactions to things but it is incumbent on us to then engage our rational minds and examine and, if needed, move past these feelings.
Your wife is still same person as she was before she told you. If you had her on some weird kind of pedestal that her relating her experience of sexual assault topples, that is, to be frank, on you and not her.
I strongly advise you not to ask her any more questions about this, she seems to have moved past this pretty well but the attitude to this that you're exhibiting in this thread is one that can retraumatise people, especially coming from her husband.
I don't really know what advice to give you. This is one of the most disappointing threads I've ever read.0 -
Deleted User wrote: »From another man's perspective :
...
Equally anger on your behalf is a sign of love, but many women don't see it that way. He isn't angry AT his partner - he is angry that something like that happened to her and he couldn't do anything about it.
Yes, I agree having a range of reactions is ok, and maybe the OP is doing the right thing by coming and asking for advice and should be given a bit of leeway for that.
However in relation to your part in bold, as a man I've always found this view so condescending.
For men anger is a sign of love? How about no - we aren't wild animals incapable of more caring emotions (even if some apparently find that image quite appealing).
If you initially get angry upon hearing something like this, it may be understandable but it doesn't make it right or laudable. It's actually something you should apologise for later. But in reality we often see people trying to act like this is some noble characteristic of us men. Guys losing the head, getting angry, going looking for fights and possibly getting in legal trouble - all the while putting their their OH through even more stress. Where in all this is the "love" that's apparently being shown? Who benefits from this?0 -
Yes, I agree having a range of reactions is ok, and maybe the OP is doing the right thing by coming and asking for advice and should be given a bit of leeway for that.
However in relation to your part in bold, as a man I've always found this view so condescending.
For men anger is a sign of love? How about no - we aren't wild animals incapable of more caring emotions (even if some apparently find that image quite appealing).
If you initially get angry upon hearing something like this, it may be understandable but it doesn't make it right or laudable. It's actually something you should apologise for later. But in reality we often see people trying to act like this is some noble characteristic of us men. Guys losing the head, getting angry, going looking for fights and possibly getting in legal trouble - all the while putting their their OH through even more stress. Where in all this is the "love" that's apparently being shown? Who benefits from this?
This kind of anger is emotional and should be treated as such.
I'm not saying the OP should actually get violent and should go all Liam Neeson in Taken - I'm just saying that he should understand where it's coming from.
I'm also not saying all men (or women) will react like this but some, I would say many, will. He should try to explain this to his wife.
Men are criticised for not showing emotion and also for not showing the "right" kind of emotion. We aren't far removed from cavemen and women in reality - we need to acknowledge this as getting upset or crying is just as cave person a reaction as getting angry, but one is more socially acceptable. There is nothing noble about it.
Of course he should show empathy for his wife - but first he needs to work through and understand his anger and then talk to his wife about it. Otherwise it will just be lip service and sit bubbling away beneath the surface, and lead to resentment.
I'm also not saying a man getting angry all the time is a sign of love - quite the opposite. But in a situation like this it can be.
And as electro bitch said, it should be an initial reaction - not smouldering for several days.0 -
Meilani Whispering Barmaid wrote: »Your reaction is not an uncommon one OP, but it is disappointing that with several days to process things and with the insight into how common these things were and are that you're still stuck at that stage and that you don't see how problematic it is.
Your feelings are what they are, none of us can help our immediate internal reactions to things but it is incumbent on us to then engage our rational minds and examine and, if needed, move past these feelings.
Your wife is still same person as she was before she told you. If you had her on some weird kind of pedestal that her relating her experience of sexual assault topples, that is, to be frank, on you and not her.
I strongly advise you not to ask her any more questions about this, she seems to have moved past this pretty well but the attitude to this that you're exhibiting in this thread is one that can retraumatise people, especially coming from her husband.
I don't really know what advice to give you. This is one of the most disappointing threads I've ever read.
I agree with this, except I hope the OP can see the error of his ways.0 -
I agree with not asking her more but not for.the same.reason. blow jobs and full finger penetration? This is not normal and not representative of what a night ourlt entails. No doubt your wife was unlucky in some.cases but more likely it came.from risky behaviour. Scream at me all.you will but this range and frequency is not typical -it happened so much and so.often at this extreme on / drinking nights out ? Absolutely not normal so.much,so extreme and so.often.. ypu are right OP yo.think is is not normal or righy,and would be best to leave the topic where your wife wants it -in the past.0
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Carpenter81 wrote: »But still I don't understand why she never said I word about it.Deleted User wrote: »It's a bit of a shock when the love of your life to whom you have told your deepest secrets would hide something like this from you - so it's understandable to have a range of reactions.
They say the best relationships are about open and honest communication - something that had a profound effect on you should be shared with the love of your life.at some point, without judgement.
I wouldn't consider this to be a case of your wife 'hiding' these experiences. As you can probably see from the responses to this thread, sexual harassment and even some degree of sexual assault are so common for most women that most individual incidents are not considered remarkable. She told you about some of her experiences when it came up in conversation, as you said in your original post:Carpenter81 wrote: »We were out having a few drinks the weekend when we got talking all the sexual assault / abuse cases coming to light in the past year.
My wife then said to me 'sure all girls have been assaulted at some point even I was a few times'.
I was very surprised and asked her when.
She told me they were all around the time she was 16.
She probably hasn't talked about it with you before now because it never came up in conversation. If you are telling her what you wrote in your second post on this thread though, she's probably wishing she never mentioned it.Carpenter81 wrote: »I asked her did she tell anybody about what that first guy did to her and she said she told her friend. But again they seemed to just shrug this off.0 -
JustAThought wrote: »I agree with not asking her more but not for.the same.reason. blow jobs and full finger penetration? This is not normal and not representative of what a night ourlt entails. No doubt your wife was unlucky in some.cases but more likely it came.from risky behaviour. Scream at me all.you will but this range and frequency is not typical -it happened so much and so.often at this extreme on / drinking nights out ? Absolutely not normal so.much,so extreme and so.often.. ypu are right OP yo.think is is not normal or righy,and would be best to leave the topic where your wife wants it -in the past.
Sorry but what relevance does that have? A sexual assault is still a sexual assault regardless of the circumstances and no matter how risky a person's behaviour no one wants to be assaulted or is less traumatised by it.
Is it any wonder people don't speak out when it's their actions and behaviour that gets judged.0 -
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