Leap card taken.

IngridM20 · 18-06-2021 4:41pm #1

Jobsworth on the DART stole my Leap card. I get many trains per week, and I assumed to be on the limit. Fair enough if it didn’t scan, my bad. I have my details for the fine but he was extremely aggressive and wouldn’t give back my card, which I needed for the route home and had a good amount on it. What is my position? I’m annoyed. He was defensive when I told him his behaviour was unlawful and I took a photo of him, and he was again defensive… which makes me think I’m right. Input appreciated.

JustAThought · 18-06-2021 4:43pm

You didn’t scan your card or pay your fare. He has the evidence and you can’t ‘correct it’ and will be caught in all and any lies you tell.

T&C’s on card. Useful no doubt.

10pennymixup · 18-06-2021 6:04pm

"Stole" is a bit strong isn't it.

How can the person doing their job catching fare evaders steal something from you that is not yours, but belongs to the company he is an agent of.

"1.3 The TFI Leap Card is and remains the property of the Authority. 1.4 The Authority reserves the right to prevent the use of, or to withdraw the TFI Leap Card in accordance with section 16 below if it is improperly used or if it is used in a way that is not permitted by the Authority."

I think the word stole is being attributed to the wrong person here.

dobman88 · 18-06-2021 6:05pm

IngridM20 wrote: »

Jobsworth .

I stopped taking you seriously here. Dont see the need for the insult

You didnt pay the fare. Hes doing his job. Get another card and pay your fare in future

jimmycrackcorm · 18-06-2021 6:13pm

IngridM20 wrote: »

Jobsworth on the DART stole my Leap card. I get many trains per week, and I assumed to be on the limit. Fair enough if it didn’t scan, my bad. I have my details for the fine but he was extremely aggressive and wouldn’t give back my card, which I needed for the route home and had a good amount on it. What is my position? I’m annoyed. He was defensive when I told him his behaviour was unlawful and I took a photo of him, and he was again defensive… which makes me think I’m right. Input appreciated.

As you have registered your leap card then you can request a refund and get a new card so no loss to you.

Your post is garbled when you refer to a 'jobsworth' that 'Stole' your card. The only element that makes sense is that you appear to admit to an attempt to defraud Irish Rail by not tapping your leap card.

Amusing you told this 'jobsworth' his behaviour was unlawful and totally ignore your own unlawful behaviour...

alroley · 18-06-2021 6:16pm

You were wrong.

punisher5112 · 18-06-2021 6:31pm

Pay the fine move on.....

Appeal the fine, show you always pay if you do and say you tapped it but it mustn't have worked, ask for CCTV at the station.

Gdpr request.

Victor · 18-06-2021 7:20pm

Pay fine, get card back.

endacl · 18-06-2021 7:23pm

Just to balance things out, I’m totally on your side Op*.

* not on op’s side.

Marcusm · 21-06-2021 9:23pm

It’s hard to see how confiscation of a valid Leap card is required in respect of a “fare dodging” incident (which this may not be if the OP’s bona fides) are accepted. The appropriate sanction is the issue of a penalty.

Victor · 21-06-2021 9:31pm

Marcusm wrote: »

It’s hard to see how confiscation of a valid Leap card is required in respect of a “fare dodging” incident (which this may not be if the OP’s bona fides) are accepted. The appropriate sanction is the issue of a penalty.

Bona fides doesn't count with a strict liability offence.

kbell · 22-06-2021 6:16am

IngridM20 wrote: »

He was defensive when I told him his behaviour was unlawful and I took a photo of him

I’d have taken the phone off you as well…

Dempo1 · 22-06-2021 6:40am

IngridM20 wrote: »

Jobsworth on the DART stole my Leap card. I get many trains per week, and I assumed to be on the limit. Fair enough if it didn’t scan, my bad. I have my details for the fine but he was extremely aggressive and wouldn’t give back my card, which I needed for the route home and had a good amount on it. What is my position? I’m annoyed. He was defensive when I told him his behaviour was unlawful and I took a photo of him, and he was again defensive… which makes me think I’m right. Input appreciated.

I've a simple response to this, Grow Up!

You commence your rant with the discription of "Jobsworth", continue with admitting you breach the rules re scanning, adding you were annoyed but then finish by stating you took a photograph of said person, doing their Job, whilst asserting you are in the right????? just extraordinary you remained calm enough to post this sorry tale looking for advice.

Pathetic and you are wrong in every respect.

Marcusm · 22-06-2021 10:41am

Victor wrote: »

Bona fides doesn't count with a strict liability offence.

The penalty for the offence is a fine. If you read Leap Ts&Cs, there are limited cited circumstances for the retention of a Leap card, none of which apply here. The reference to “bona fides” was simply to their recitation of the events rather than any aspect of the offence.

Marcusm · 22-06-2021 10:43am

kbell wrote: »

I’d have taken the phone off you as well…

In which case IngridM20 would have been well advised to arrest you pending the arrival of the Gardai. Theft is an arrestable offence and you have no right to commit theft to avoid having a photo taken irrespective of how irritating the action was.

Marcusm · 22-06-2021 10:45am

Dempo1 wrote: »

I've a simple response to this, Grow Up!

You commence your rant with the discription of "Jobsworth", continue with admitting you breach the rules re scanning, adding you were annoyed but then finish by stating you took a photograph of said person, doing their Job, whilst asserting you are in the right????? just extraordinary you remained calm enough to post this sorry tale looking for advice.

Pathetic and you are wrong in every respect.

This is Legal Discussion not Moralistic Discussion. I fail to see that the security guard acted within his authority in retaining the card. It is not theft as IngridM20 did not own it but she was discommoded. Her attitude may be irritating but the fine remains the appropriate punishment.

mondeoman72 · 23-06-2021 11:15am

You got caught not paying for a service. Is that not theft?
Yet you get upset over this and say they stole your leap card. I can see where the apparent theft is, and it is not of a leap card.

ClosedAccountFuzzy · 23-06-2021 11:23am

Leap isn’t issued by Irish Rail and it’s an electronic wallet used across multiple services.

You didn’t pay your fare, so you will be issued with a fine, but I don’t see what this has to do with your method of payment. Confiscating a card makes no sense, particularly as you didn’t use the card.

Your first step would be to make a calm and concise complaint to TFI.

customer.care@leapcard.ie

JRK1995 · 23-06-2021 11:30am

A lot of hypocrites in here. In their opinion, a potentially honest mistake as not tapping on (could be proven by her journey History) warrants the illegal confiscation of a leap card. As for the poster who said he'd take the phone as well......

ohnonotgmail · 23-06-2021 12:35pm

JRK1995 wrote: »

A lot of hypocrites in here. In their opinion, a potentially honest mistake as not tapping on (could be proven by her journey History) warrants the illegal confiscation of a leap card. As for the poster who said he'd take the phone as well......

what is illegal about the confiscation?

Claw Hammer · 23-06-2021 1:03pm

Marcusm wrote: »

This is Legal Discussion not Moralistic Discussion. I fail to see that the security guard acted within his authority in retaining the card. It is not theft as IngridM20 did not own it but she was discommoded. Her attitude may be irritating but the fine remains the appropriate punishment.

The fare is €100 unless a person has paid a fare in advance. If a person is on the tram without paying a fare then the owe €100. The card has also been misused. Unless there was more than €100 on the card then no argument can be made about confiscating the card.

athlone573 · 23-06-2021 1:29pm

This is getting ridiculous and like the trains and buses forum where people will quote the letter of the law allowing ticket checkers to confiscate your travel pass because CIE own it.

ohnonotgmail · 23-06-2021 1:36pm

athlone573 wrote: »

This is getting ridiculous and like the trains and buses forum where people will quote the letter of the law allowing ticket checkers to confiscate your travel pass because CIE own it.

this is the legal discussion forum. the letter of the law is pretty important. Especially when you have posters claiming things are illegal when they are not.

LillySV · 23-06-2021 1:40pm

kbell wrote: »

I’d have taken the phone off you as well…

If someone took my photo without my permission I’d be doing more than taking their card …

mondeoman72 · 23-06-2021 1:45pm

LillySV wrote: »

If someone took my photo without my permission I’d be doing more than taking their card …

anyone can take your photo if you are in a public place. Like it or not!

LillySV · 23-06-2021 2:05pm

mondeoman72 wrote: »

anyone can take your photo if you are in a public place. Like it or not!

Without my permission ? So if I walk up to a woman wearing a short skirt tomoro on a public street and take pic and she says she doesn’t consent to the pic , do I say to her tough luck, she’s on a public street?

mondeoman72 · 23-06-2021 2:44pm

LillySV wrote: »

Without my permission ? So if I walk up to a woman wearing a short skirt tomoro on a public street and take pic and she says she doesn’t consent to the pic , do I say to her tough luck, she’s on a public street?

I would be fairly sure of that, but as things change, I will leave your question for someone with better information, to answer.

ohnonotgmail · 23-06-2021 2:47pm

LillySV wrote: »

Without my permission ? So if I walk up to a woman wearing a short skirt tomoro on a public street and take pic and she says she doesn’t consent to the pic , do I say to her tough luck, she’s on a public street?

that is pretty much it.

The J Stands for Jay · 23-06-2021 2:57pm

LillySV wrote: »

Without my permission ? So if I walk up to a woman wearing a short skirt tomoro on a public street and take pic and she says she doesn’t consent to the pic , do I say to her tough luck, she’s on a public street?

Yes

Jerry Attrick · 23-06-2021 3:06pm

Marcusm wrote: »

It’s hard to see how confiscation of a valid Leap card is required in respect of a “fare dodging” incident (which this may not be if the OP’s bona fides) are accepted. The appropriate sanction is the issue of a penalty.

A little knowledge is frequently a dangerous thing.

6.4 Confiscation: Iarnród Éireann, LUAS, Dublin Bus and other carriers may confiscate the card in the case of misuse. In the case of confiscation, the cardholders name may be placed on a stop list and a new card may not be issued for six months following confiscation and you will not receive a refund of any remaining Travel Credit.

Jerry Attrick · 23-06-2021 3:09pm

JRK1995 wrote: »

A lot of hypocrites in here. In their opinion, a potentially honest mistake as not tapping on (could be proven by her journey History) warrants the illegal confiscation of a leap card. As for the poster who said he'd take the phone as well......

I suspect that a more objective poster would have used the word "potentially" in front of the words "illegal confiscation" as well as in front of the words "honest mistake".

Claw Hammer · 23-06-2021 4:11pm

LillySV wrote: »

Without my permission ? So if I walk up to a woman wearing a short skirt tomoro on a public street and take pic and she says she doesn’t consent to the pic , do I say to her tough luck, she’s on a public street?

Upskirt photos are not allowed but otherwise there is no problem.

bobbyss · 23-06-2021 4:29pm

LillySV wrote:

Without my permission ? So if I walk up to a woman wearing a short skirt tomoro on a public street and take pic and she says she doesnâ€™t consent to the pic , do I say to her tough luck, sheâ€™s on a public street?

I am not sure about the walking 'up to a woman' bit but as far as I am aware consent not needed. Plenty of CCTV cameras around. Did they ask you for consent?
Exactly!

twowheelsonly · 23-06-2021 4:48pm

LillySV wrote: »

Without my permission ? So if I walk up to a woman wearing a short skirt tomoro on a public street and take pic and she says she doesn’t consent to the pic , do I say to her tough luck, she’s on a public street?

Technically yes, so long as it doesn't constitute harassment or obstruction.

If you follow that woman and persist in taking photos, if you block her passage to take her photo, if you're shooting 'upskirt' or otherwise demeaning photos or if you're hiding in a bush or a tree just to catch their photo then you could be done for it and she has every right to tell you to stop.

(This is from a photographers point of view of the law BTW, and not a qualified legal opinion)

Back on topic, I'm sure the OPs' travel history can be checked and if it's fairly consistent then I'm sure she can make a case for a genuine error. What seems to be her quite aggressive reactions, both on the train and in her post isn't doing her any favours however.
I'm sure the Inspectors encounter this situation quite a lot and a persons reaction will be quite telling to someone that's doing this job day in and day out.

LillySV · 23-06-2021 7:19pm

Jesas I’m shocked … well I can’t imagine anyone wanting a photo of me anyways so I probably safe enough ðŸ˜‚

Marcusm · 23-06-2021 8:54pm

Claw Hammer wrote: »

The fare is €100 unless a person has paid a fare in advance. If a person is on the tram without paying a fare then the owe €100. The card has also been misused. Unless there was more than €100 on the card then no argument can be made about confiscating the card.

There is no obligation to pay the fine on the spot. There is no positive provision providing for the confiscation of the card pending settlement of the fine. The card is the property of the National Transport Authority which has effectively created a bailment to the holder. Unless there is an express power on the part of the security guard as an employee or a servant of the NTA, it is a misappropriation of the property. Whether it amounts to theft requires a number of different elements. They may not be present here but there is no order from the NTA to “confiscate” the Leap card. I think also it’s worth noting that the Leap card has not been “misused” as might be the case of an adult used a child’s leap card. In this case, it would seem, whether by error or a determined act, the OP did not use the Leap card!

Marcusm · 23-06-2021 8:56pm

Jerry Attrick wrote: »

A little knowledge is frequently a dangerous thing.

Identify the misuse; the assertion is that it was not used. Misuse would be using a child’s leap card or similar.

Equally, if you are going to use an aphorism to poke fun, it would be worthwhile to get it right.

A little learning is a dangerous thing!

athlone573 · 23-06-2021 9:03pm

It may seem harsh but the leap card conditions allow for confiscation of card and balance and the OP didn't do theirselves any favors by winding the inspector up.
The best thing they could do is write a grovelling letter pleading that it was an honest mistake and they might get their credit back.

Claw Hammer · 24-06-2021 11:36am

Marcusm wrote: »

There is no obligation to pay the fine on the spot.

There is an obligation to pay the standard fare on the spot, it is not a fine per se. Since you got that much wrong there is not much point in commenting on the rest of your post.

FROM THE BYE LAWS.
(5) A passenger who is on a light rail vehicle without a valid ticket shall pay the standard fare to an authorised person immediately or, at the discretion of the authorised person and where the authorised person is satisfied as to the name and address of the passenger, within a period of 14 days of having so entered the light rail vehicle, to the operator concerned.

Marcusm · 24-06-2021 1:15pm

Claw Hammer wrote: »

There is an obligation to pay the standard fare on the spot, it is not a fine per se. Since you got that much wrong there is not much point in commenting on the rest of your post.

FROM THE BYE LAWS.
(5) A passenger who is on a light rail vehicle without a valid ticket shall pay the standard fare to an authorised person immediately or, at the discretion of the authorised person and where the authorised person is satisfied as to the name and address of the passenger, within a period of 14 days of having so entered the light rail vehicle, to the operator concerned.

And if the person does not have €100? There is no ability to confiscate property generally and, absent misuse, no authority to take the Leap Card. I’d love to see the statistics as to how many std fares are paid on the spot, very few I would expect. No doubt the OP was dismissive towards the security guard and may have provoked him. However, the transport operator and the NTA leaves themselves open to action if their servants do not act in accordance with lawful procedures.

GM228 · 24-06-2021 1:31pm

Marcusm wrote: »

And if the person does not have €100?

Ask them to leave the tram.

Marcusm wrote: »

There is no ability to confiscate property generally and, absent misuse, no authority to take the Leap Card. I’d love to see the statistics as to how many std fares are paid on the spot, very few I would expect. No doubt the OP was dismissive towards the security guard and may have provoked him. However, the transport operator and the NTA leaves themselves open to action if their servants do not act in accordance with lawful procedures.

People are quoting the LEAP T&Cs to allow for lawful confiscation, however, it would be more appropriate to quote the Light Railway (Regulation of Travel and Use) Bye-laws 2015, S3 (2) allows the inspector to retain a LEAP card or indeed any ticket:-

An authorised person is entitled to retain any ticket or form of identification or other particular document required for use with that ticket.

LEAP cards come under "ticket" and the provision is not subject to any misuse or otherwise qualification.

They have the lawful ability to retain any ticket without qualification.

Claw Hammer · 24-06-2021 2:50pm

Marcusm wrote: »

And if the person does not have €100? There is no ability to confiscate property generally and, absent misuse, no authority to take the Leap Card. I’d love to see the statistics as to how many std fares are paid on the spot, very few I would expect. No doubt the OP was dismissive towards the security guard and may have provoked him. However, the transport operator and the NTA leaves themselves open to action if their servants do not act in accordance with lawful procedures.

If the person does not have the €100, they have only themselves to blame. The credit on the card should go some way towards the €100.

GreeBo · 24-06-2021 4:36pm

Claw Hammer wrote: »

The fare is €100 unless a person has paid a fare in advance. If a person is on the tram without paying a fare then the owe €100. The card has also been misused. Unless there was more than €100 on the card then no argument can be made about confiscating the card.

How was the card misued if it wasnt used?
If the OP had left the card at home what would have happened?

athlone573 · 24-06-2021 6:24pm

If they'd left the card at home they would have been charged the standard fare and had to satisfy the inspector of their name and address so they could fill out the form in their ticket book.

You're on a hiding to nothing arguing the technical point that if their card wasn't tapped, it was never used or misused, bearing in mind you'll be dealing with Veoilia appeals or maybe a busy District Court Judge.

Jerry Attrick · 24-06-2021 9:48pm

Marcusm wrote: »

Identify the misuse; the assertion is that it was not used. Misuse would be using a child’s leap card or similar.

Not my job to do that, that's up to the fare dodger and the "jobsworth".

Marcusm wrote: »

Equally, if you are going to use an aphorism to poke fun, it would be worthwhile to get it right. A little learning is a dangerous thing!

I didn't want to rub your nose in it, but as you insist, I'm more than content to defer to your mastery of the topic.

Here's another maxim for you to contemplate: possession is nine points of the law; care to remind us who is in possession of the Leap Card?

Claw Hammer · 25-06-2021 1:27pm

GreeBo wrote: »

How was the card misued if it wasnt used?
If the OP had left the card at home what would have happened?

It was tendered as evidence the fare had been paid, which was untrue. Non use in this case is misuse.

IngridM20 · 16-01-2022 12:22am

Just an update for anyone reading and to address some points. Jobsworth is because of his attitude and I was writing on boards.ie Wasn't going to get harsher.

He was in my face aggressively. I took a photo and video - for this reason. I awaited the Gardaí also when I got off. It was 1 stop. A 3 minute journey. So it was a huge hassle awaiting them, and getting it all on record.

So no, not “irritating” ~ irritated.

I admit, I didn’t know they take the card. I’ll be sure to read my T&C’s more carefully in future. I hadn’t been using it over the lockdown.

Anyway, I won the appeal. The machine at the tag on station was (and still is) notoriously defunct. I was spotted tagging on. Not fare evading. Thanks.

And yes, my card had more than the fine. I have not received the card back, so that’ll be another hassle. I won’t be back here as I’m rarely boards, but I will if I receive the card, with the amount that was on just if anyone is in the same situation or interested.

Thank you.

MakersMark · 16-01-2022 10:47am

Cheers for the update.

Some people on here owe you an apology. Hopefully they'll be good enough to do so.

IngridM20 · 31-03-2022 9:11pm

Thank you 😊

Leap card taken.

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