Beneficiary in Will refusing to give date of birth

Redsquigy · 18-06-2021 12:21pm #1

Is there any way around applying for Grant of Probate. one beneficiary refusing to give DOB. Have exhausted all avenues at this stage.

Allinall · 18-06-2021 12:24pm

Redsquigy wrote: »

Is there any way around applying for Grant of Probate. one beneficiary refusing to give DOB. Have exhausted all avenues at this stage.

Put it to them that if they don’t comply with legal requirements, they will lose their inheritance.

That should do it.

GerardKeating · 18-06-2021 12:41pm

Redsquigy wrote: »

Is there any way around applying for Grant of Probate. one beneficiary refusing to give DOB. Have exhausted all avenues at this stage.

Why do you need the DOB?

Redsquigy · 18-06-2021 12:45pm

GerardKeating wrote: »

Why do you need the DOB?

Date of birth is required for Revenue

GerardKeating · 18-06-2021 1:10pm

Redsquigy wrote: »

Date of birth is required for Revenue

Thought they only wanted PPS ?

Redsquigy · 18-06-2021 1:19pm

GerardKeating wrote: »

Thought they only wanted PPS ?

no, date of birth also required. A right pain this is. since September 2020 new rules on form that has to be submitted to Revenue in order to get acknowledgment. it is then submitted to probate office.

TheWonderLlama · 18-06-2021 1:22pm

buy the client a birthday cake and then present it to them next time they're in.
When they say its not their birthday, ask them to prove it.

(alternatively, ask them for a copy of passport/driving licence for ID purposes)

Redsquigy · 18-06-2021 1:32pm

TheWonderLlama wrote: »

buy the client a birthday cake and then present it to them next time they're in.
When they say its not their birthday, ask them to prove it.

(alternatively, ask them for a copy of passport/driving licence for ID purposes)

sounds good

but i am executor of will not solicitor

TheWonderLlama · 18-06-2021 1:35pm

Ahhh, i see. Tell them you have to file a form of Id with the probate, let beneficiary choose which ID they want to give a copy of.

out of sheer curiosity,. why do they not want to give DOB?

Bicyclette · 18-06-2021 1:40pm

If they were born in 1958 or before that, go onto www.familysearch.org and look for their birth. You may well be able to find the year and the quarter in which they were born. Then all you need is the month and the date.

Redsquigy · 18-06-2021 2:05pm

TheWonderLlama wrote: »

Ahhh, i see. Tell them you have to file a form of Id with the probate, let beneficiary choose which ID they want to give a copy of.

out of sheer curiosity,. why do they not want to give DOB?

i have no idea. they just will not supply it. Think mad that they did not get everything

Redsquigy · 18-06-2021 2:09pm

Bicyclette wrote: »

If they were born in 1958 or before that, go onto www.familysearch.org and look for their birth. You may well be able to find the year and the quarter in which they were born. Then all you need is the month and the date.

born 1980's

18-06-2021 2:13pm

While its ok to request DOB, I dont think theres any legal obligation is there? I mean, PPS is a unique number. Theres probable multiple Paul Murphy, DOB 01/01/1980 in the world.

Redsquigy · 18-06-2021 2:23pm

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

While its ok to request DOB, I dont think theres any legal obligation is there? I mean, PPS is a unique number. Theres probable multiple Paul Murphy, DOB 01/01/1980 in the world.

unfortunately date of birth has to be filled in on online Revenue form. it is all to do with new Rules and it is for validation purposes

18-06-2021 2:25pm

Redsquigy wrote: »

unfortunately date of birth has to be filled in on online Revenue form. it is all to do with new Rules and it is for validation purposes

Says who though? This is the legal section so Im curious as to what legislation covers this. GDPR states that it must be a reasonable request. Considering the existance of a PPS number in addition to a name, why do they need DOB?

Bicyclette · 18-06-2021 2:30pm

Could you give the Revenue Helpline a buzz? Explain the situation.

But the solicitor should be helping you out here.

Caranica · 18-06-2021 2:31pm

Redsquigy wrote: »

born 1980's

Have you tried their social media? Other family members? Newspaper archives?

Skid X · 18-06-2021 2:43pm

If the beneficiary is a Company Director you could obtain their Date Of Birth from the Annual Return B1 form of that company (you can get this from the CRO website for a processing fee)

Jerry Attrick · 18-06-2021 3:04pm

Redsquigy wrote: »

Is there any way around applying for Grant of Probate.

No (unless the value of the estate is very small).

However according to Irish Probate Law, the executor can renounce their obligation to administer the will if they wish.

So if she (it has to be a female!) persists in playing silly buggers then you could write to all of the beneficiaries and tell them that you're going to have to quit as executor. And tell them why! And tell them that they'll probably need to employ a solicitor which could cost a lot!

seamus · 18-06-2021 3:10pm

Yeah, give the Revenue helpline a ring and if they stonewall you, I'd just put down a fake date. 01/01/1980 or something, just to get past it. Nobody will care.

Robbo · 18-06-2021 3:17pm

seamus wrote: »

Yeah, give the Revenue helpline a ring and if they stonewall you, I'd just put down a fake date. 01/01/1980 or something, just to get past it. Nobody will care.

Do not put down a fake DOB. Knowingly giving the Revenue false information is a criminal offence.

jimmycrackcorm · 18-06-2021 3:43pm

My suggestion is that you get a solicitor to write a letter to them explaining that unless they are forthcoming with the details required by revenue, by a certain date that you will accept it as them refusing the beneficiary and their share will be distributed to the other beneficiaries.

Redsquigy · 18-06-2021 5:58pm

solicitor has already asked but as they are dealing with the estate they will not enter into further negotiations with any beneficiaries. thanks for all the suggestions.

Claw Hammer · 18-06-2021 6:07pm

Redsquigy wrote: »

Is there any way around applying for Grant of Probate. one beneficiary refusing to give DOB. Have exhausted all avenues at this stage.

Go to Joyce House in Lombard Street and buy their birth cert.

Pistachio19 · 18-06-2021 6:46pm

How odd that they won't provide their dob. Are there any siblings? Could you ask them?

_Whimsical_ · 18-06-2021 7:21pm

Do you need PPS in order for a parent to leave a child an inheritance?

Grolschevik · 18-06-2021 7:33pm

Redsquigy wrote: »

born 1980's

I'm pretty sure they were born on 27 July 1983.
Prove me wrong.

Jerry Attrick · 18-06-2021 7:33pm

_Whimsical_ wrote: »

Do you need PPS in order for a parent to leave a child an inheritance?

No - you need two PPSNs! One for the parent and one for the child.

Occasionally a PPS number may be required for a deceased person, usually when dealing with grant of probate.

In such cases, you should send a copy of the death certificate and details about why the PPS number is required to the DSP's Client Identity Services - the address is below.

https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/social_welfare/irish_social_welfare_system/personal_public_service_number.html

stopthevoting · 18-06-2021 7:34pm

Claw Hammer wrote: »

Go to Joyce House in Lombard Street and buy their birth cert.

The Date of Birth is one of the pieces of information you need to provide in order to buy a Birth Certificate.

_Whimsical_ · 19-06-2021 1:23am

Jerry Attrick wrote: »

No - you need two PPSNs! One for the parent and one for the child.

https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/social_welfare/irish_social_welfare_system/personal_public_service_number.html

Ha, I meant more than if you wanted to include a birth child in your will but did not have a PPS for them, could you still legally do so?

jimmycrackcorm · 19-06-2021 1:56am

Claw Hammer wrote:

Go to Joyce House in Lombard Street and buy their birth cert.

Unfortunately:

To get a birth certificate you need to provide:

full birth name on the certificate

date of birth

place of birth

gender

father's full name, if recorded

mother's full birth name

Andrea B. · 19-06-2021 8:31am

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

Unfortunately:

To get a birth certificate you need to provide:

full birth name on the certificate

date of birth

place of birth

gender

father's full name, if recorded

mother's full birth name

I imagine you cannot execute your executor duties then?
Let any other beneficiaries and "birthday boy" know that they have a week for "birthday boy's" birthdate.
If not, you inform probate office that you cannot execute. They appoint a solicitor (independent I believe, at cost of estate) as executor.

Whatever the outcome, send birthday boy multiple cards, with age stated, on their birthday, from here on in.

CIARAN_BOYLE · 19-06-2021 9:38am

_Whimsical_ wrote: »

Ha, I meant more than if you wanted to include a birth child in your will but did not have a PPS for them, could you still legally do so?

You can leave whatever you want to whoever you want. I believe that your executor can say that he failed to acquire sufficient data to fulfil his responsibilities and that the child's share should go into the residue of the estate.

Its not something thtt should be done without legal advice.

Flinty997 · 19-06-2021 10:23am

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

While its ok to request DOB, I dont think theres any legal obligation is there? I mean, PPS is a unique number. Theres probable multiple Paul Murphy, DOB 01/01/1980 in the world.

If you only give one bit of information there's no way of cross checking it to make sure there no typo etc on the pps.

Mrs OBumble · 19-06-2021 10:44am

Flinty997 wrote: »

If you only give one bit of information there's no way of cross checking it to make sure there no typo etc on the pps.

Name + PPSN is two pieces.

And PPSNs have an internal check digit, which reduces the chances of a typo being valid.

But that's irrelevant: Revenue are asking for DOB so must believe they need it.

Personally I would be informing the other beneficiaries why their distribution is being delayed, possibly indefinitely, and seeing what they can find out.

NewbridgeIR · 19-06-2021 10:46am

People refusing to provide information for a reasonable request is a red flag IMHO

Is this going to hold up things i.e. affect the other beneficiaries?

If so, why not let them know so they can put pressure on the outlier.

As already mentioned, you can get this info off CRO or Vision Net for a fee (assuming person is a company director - which they may not be)

Redsquigy · 19-06-2021 11:06am

NewbridgeIR wrote: »

People refusing to provide information for a reasonable request is a red flag IMHO

Is this going to hold up things i.e. affect the other beneficiaries?

If so, why not let them know so they can put pressure on the outlier.

As already mentioned, you can get this info off CRO or Vision Net for a fee (assuming person is a company director - which they may not be)

other beneficiaries are aware and dont seem too bothered that all is held up. none are directors of any company. Think this one in particular is just being petty now. i have never come across anything like this before.

MarkR · 19-06-2021 11:08am

They're not on Facebook, are they?

19-06-2021 11:09am

Have they no relations who know when they were born?!

NewbridgeIR · 19-06-2021 11:11am

Is the person on Linkedin - you'd be surprised how many put their birthdays on that.

Presume none of the other beneficiaries can confirm the date of birth? You may need to focus on somebody who can provide the information.

Surprised that solicitor won't do more to help.

Spook_ie · 19-06-2021 11:12am

There is a section on the SA2 where you can avail of no PPSN number, what would happen if you said PPSN wasn't available and availed of the amended SA25 option?

Where a PPSN is not available for a beneficiary of the estate, the Form SA.2 contains
a facility to allow an applicant to give an undertaking that they will not distribute any
property passing under the estate to that beneficiary until the PPSN is provided to
the Revenue Commissioners on an amended Form SA.2 return. This facility is in
order to assist our customers proceed with the application for a Grant of
Representation. Please note that an undertaking can only be given for one
beneficiary per application. To avail of this facility please tick the box to indicate that
a PPSN is not available and follow the on-screen instructions.

Would SW be able to tie the PPSN to a birthdate?

Redsquigy · 19-06-2021 11:21am

NewbridgeIR wrote: »

Is the person on Linkedin - you'd be surprised how many put their birthdays on that.

Presume none of the other beneficiaries can confirm the date of birth? You may need to focus on somebody who can provide the information.

Surprised that solicitor won't do more to help.

other beneficiaries are related and not helping either.

Redsquigy · 19-06-2021 11:24am

Spook_ie wrote: »

There is a section on the SA2 where you can avail of no PPSN number, what would happen if you said PPSN wasn't available and availed of the amended SA25 option?

Would SW be able to tie the PPSN to a birthdate?

think i will have to ask solicitor to try that. we have pps number

headtheball14 · 19-06-2021 11:35am

Could you write in age approx and send it in? Deasp have access to a file with pppsn name address dob that revenue have access to . With the ppsn this is just a look up. It's more common people not having ppsn .
It's not uncommon to have the wrong dob down for people and I'm sure there are cases where it can't be established

Mrs OBumble · 19-06-2021 1:14pm

Redsquigy wrote: »

other beneficiaries are related and not helping either.

That puts things in a whole different light. Someone influential has an incentive to delay distribution of the estate.

In that case, unless you're also a beneficiary, I'd be talking to a solicitor about ways to renounce being executor. This nightmare will go on for a long time.

Claw Hammer · 19-06-2021 1:31pm

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

Unfortunately:

To get a birth certificate you need to provide:

full birth name on the certificate

date of birth

place of birth

gender

father's full name, if recorded

mother's full birth name

You do not. All you need is
Page Number
GS Film number
Digital Folder Number
Image Number
Birthplace
Registration Quarter and Year

I have done this. The information is available online for free in the case of persons born before 1958.

In any case once you have a general idea of the persons age and place of birth you can go to Werburgh St and look up the registers.

The o/p should at least be able to find the mothers maiden name and approximate age if he knows the relatives of the person.

listermint · 19-06-2021 1:35pm

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

That puts things in a whole different light. Someone influential has an incentive to delay distribution of the estate.

In that case, unless you're also a beneficiary, I'd be talking to a solicitor about ways to renounce being executor. This nightmare will go on for a long time.

Ya all very weird.

They're up to something. I'd exit as quick as I could.

the_pen_turner · 19-06-2021 1:43pm

Have you asked them why they wont give it
Do they not want the inheritance

AndrewJRenko · 19-06-2021 3:44pm

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Personally I would be informing the other beneficiaries why their distribution is being delayed, possibly indefinitely, and seeing what they can find out.

While this would be tempting, I'd be cautious about revealing any information to the other beneficiaries as you would be breaching confidentiality. If someone is being petty about DOB, they could well get even more petty about you revealing their business to other family members.

coylemj · 19-06-2021 3:54pm

Redsquigy wrote: »

other beneficiaries are related and not helping either.

This suggests to me that someone is holding up probate because they're living in a house which is part of the estate and which has been left to someone else. And they think they can effectively live rent-free by delaying probate forever.

athlone573 · 19-06-2021 3:59pm

Would the probate office (beside Smithfield luas stop) be of any assistance?

I would be tempted just to get three quotes from solicitors and be rid of the whole thing.

Beneficiary in Will refusing to give date of birth

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