Teachers booing and heckling like children?

RealJohn · 05-04-2013 3:09pm

limnam wrote: »

Now you want to get into details. no one wanted to get into details on the graph regarding teachers hours now everyone wants to get into details regarding salary.

I've already explained why you can give a general figure for hours but you can't for salary yet you're refusing to explain where you got your figure from. If you're as well educated as you claim, you must be being deliberately obtuse so there is little point in humouring you any further. You're clearly just here to criticise anyway so nothing we can say to you will be good enough.

limnam · 05-04-2013 3:10pm

Mardy Bum wrote: »

:pac:

He comes to ask question then refuses to listen to answers fairly typical behaviour of someone who has an agenda.

Maybe you should look to see who posted the graphic that brought the thread off topic. It was not me. it was a primary school teacher moderator.

noodler · 05-04-2013 3:10pm

RealJohn wrote: »

Experienced teachers are still a commodity. Why isn't the comparison with doctors realistic or fair?

Oh, I didn't realise we were only talking about experienced teachers! Solidarity, what?

Its not realistic because doctors are far more valuable and qualified.

It is not a fair comparison because they do more than double the training teachers do.

You said you wouldn't ever question a doctor's salary or anybody else if they performed a skill you couldn't but that is a very naive pov imo.

RealJohn · 05-04-2013 3:12pm

limnam wrote: »

I'm sorry you're showing me a survey where teachers were "asked" how many hours they did outside of class time. I'm looking for some facts.

How exactly could those facts be obtained? There're no clock cards in teachers' houses to measure it so presumably, we should just assume that it doesn't happen at all, right?

limnam · 05-04-2013 3:13pm

RealJohn wrote: »

How exactly could those facts be obtained? There're no clock cards in teachers' houses to measure it so presumably, we should just assume that it doesn't happen at all, right?

If the fact cannot be obtained then stop rolling it out as a fact. The truth is we have no idea how much time is spend outside of the class room for these tasks.

noodler · 05-04-2013 3:15pm

Miss Lockhart wrote: »

SHowever, I think that the fact this is the main news from the conference reported in the media shows that the media is not interested in actually reporting on the facts (that this was the behaviour of a minority) or on the real issues discussed.

. All it does is take attention away from the real issues.

Tough being the Minister.

Some teachers earlier in the thread criticising his speech because it skirted around the CP2 issue whilst yourself seem to be disappointed that that was the main focus of the media.

It wasn't by the way, I have copies of the IT, II and IE on front of me from the last 4 days. They all address the other issues brought up, JC reform, Vetting, new entrants, increased class sizes etc etc as well as CP2 and the heckling.

Miss Lockhart · 05-04-2013 3:19pm

noodler wrote: »

Tough being the Minister.

Some teachers earlier in the thread criticising his speech because it skirted around the CP2 issue whilst yourself seem to be disappointed that that was the main focus of the media.

It wasn't by the way, I have copies of the IT, II and IE on front of me from the last 4 days. They all address the other issues brought up, JC reform, Vetting, new entrants, increased class sizes etc etc as well as CP2 and the heckling.

And were there whole radio programmes dedicated to discussing these issues? Were they at the top of the main evening news?

I also never said CP2 was the main focus of the media. Please keep your facts straight.

limnam · 05-04-2013 3:21pm

Miss Lockhart wrote: »

And were there whole radio programmes dedicated to discussing these issues? Were they at the top of the main evening news?

I also never said CP2 was the main focus if the media. Please keep your facts straight.

You cannot blame the newspapers or the media for covering teachers booing and heckling. If the teachers had have acted like mature adults during the talks there would be no booing or heckling to be discussed.

RealJohn · 05-04-2013 3:22pm

noodler wrote: »

Oh, I didn't realise we were only talking about experienced teachers! Solidarity, what?

Its not realistic because doctors are far more valuable and qualified.

It is not a fair comparison because they do more than double the training teachers do.

You said you wouldn't ever question a doctor's salary or anybody else if they performed a skill you couldn't but that is a very naive pov imo.

Experienced teachers are the ones being discussed. Newly qualified teachers don't tend to go to union conferences and certainly don't get paid anything like the figures being thrown about here so they're not really relevant to this particular thread of the discussion, are they?

Now doctors are far more valuable and qualified, are they? Double the training you say? Six years to train as a doctor. Five to train as a secondary teacher (depending on subject of course) going up to six now that the dip is being increased to two years. I certainly won't dispute that a doctor's training is more intense but they're certainly not completely incomparable.
And more valuable? Well in the immediate term, I suppose they are. If you have a heart attack right now, you won't be looking for a teacher but then, where did those valuable doctors learn to be doctors? And where did they learn the skills to learn to be doctors?

And I didn't say that I would never question what someone's paid just because of their qualifications, I said that I don't complain about how much someone's paid if they're highly trained, valuable people (assuming they're good at their jobs) like doctors.

Miss Lockhart · 05-04-2013 3:23pm

limnam wrote: »

You cannot blame the newspapers or the media for covering teachers booing and heckling. If the teachers had have acted like mature adults during the talks there would be no booing or heckling to be discussed.

Can you point out where I blamed them?

Mardy Bum · 05-04-2013 3:24pm

limnam wrote: »

If the fact cannot be obtained then stop rolling it out as a fact. The truth is we have no idea how much time is spend outside of the class room for these tasks.

Really what you are saying is you refuse to trust anything teachers say.
You believe that they are obviously lying in the survey provided.
You disregard anything that does not go along with your agenda of slating the profession.
You quite clearly have a massive chip on your shoulder.

RealJohn · 05-04-2013 3:25pm

limnam wrote: »

If the fact cannot be obtained then stop rolling it out as a fact. The truth is we have no idea how much time is spend outside of the class room for these tasks.

So should we assume that teachers do absolutely no work outside of class then? I'm pretty sure that none of it is measured.

limnam · 05-04-2013 3:26pm

Mardy Bum wrote: »

Really what you are saying is you refuse to trust anything teachers say.
You believe that they are obviously lying in the survey provided.
You disregard anything that does not go along with your agenda of slating the profession.
You quite clearly have a massive chip on your shoulder.

</br> No, i refuse to take a survey who asked the VI's a question that would have an impact on that VI. I haven't said one negative thing about teachers or the profession. I would have another read of the thread if I was you.

limnam · 05-04-2013 3:27pm

RealJohn wrote: »

So should we assume that teachers do absolutely no work outside of class then? I'm pretty sure that none of it is measured.

We should not bring in anything as fact that cannot be proven as fact. Don't bring in measurements that are not measured. The mod has stated all ready to remove hearsay. You tell me what you do outside the classroom I tell you what my friend does and what do we have? hearsay.

Lord TSC · 05-04-2013 3:29pm

Ah, what I wouldn't do for €65 an hour.

Hell, what I wouldn't do for €6.50 an hour :P

ManMade wrote: »

Lack of perspective in what? Guaranteed job, pension , nice hours, long holidays and early retirement options along with good pay? What am I missing?

And I would definitely like this job!

As for why his job is important, it harks back to how people have come on here before to attack teachers, and then when asked what their job is, their outrage can be debated against. As teachers, we take the individual we're talking to and try and customize our points to that person. You don't treat the kid who does all the homework to an A standard the same way you do the kid who never hands in his homework; you come at each student, each point, each problem differently.

If someone comes on here, they know what job we have (Hint: it's in the message board's name). It's only fair then that both sides are on a somewhat level playing field. I don't, personally, understand the reluctance to tell people what job you have unless you know it's going to hurt your argument for some reason...

RealJohn · 05-04-2013 3:32pm

limnam wrote: »

We should not bring in anything as fact that cannot be proven as fact. Don't bring in measurements that are not measured. The mod has stated all ready to remove hearsay. You tell me what you do outside the classroom I tell you what my friend does and what do we have? hearsay.

Well can you prove to me that I make €65 per hour then? And that this is typical for a teacher? And that the typical teacher makes €60,000 per year?

limnam · 05-04-2013 3:34pm

RealJohn wrote: »

Well can you prove to me that I make €65 per hour then? And that this is typical for a teacher? And that the typical teacher makes €60,000 per year?

I can prove there is teachers on 65e an hour yes. All ready in the thread Please review.

Mardy Bum · 05-04-2013 3:36pm

limnam wrote: »

We should not bring in anything as fact that cannot be proven as fact. Don't bring in measurements that are not measured. The mod has stated all ready to remove hearsay. You tell me what you do outside the classroom I tell you what my friend does and what do we have? hearsay.

As has already been said how do you expect someone to measure this? Take a video recording every time they do work outside the classroom?

RealJohn · 05-04-2013 3:37pm

limnam wrote: »

I can prove there is teachers on 65e an hour yes. All ready in the thread Please review.

I've read the entire thread. Unless you've edited one of your posts you haven't proven anything of the sort. Also, I didn't ask you to prove that it's possible for a teacher to earn €65 per hour, I asked your to prove that it's typical as you've been implying.

limnam · 05-04-2013 3:38pm

Mardy Bum wrote: »

As has already been said how do you expect someone to measure this? Take a video recording every time they do work outside the classroom?

I don't expect it to be measured, I expect it not to be brought into every discussion as it's not measured we have no idea how many teachers do it or how many hours that they spend doing it if any.

As we can't validate that. Stop bringing it up.

limnam · 05-04-2013 3:39pm

RealJohn wrote: »

I've read the entire thread. Unless you've edited one of your posts you haven't proven anything of the sort. Also, I didn't ask you to prove that it's possible for a teacher to earn €65 per hour, I asked your to prove that it's typical as you've been implying.

I can't help you then. It's all in the thread.

evolving_doors · 05-04-2013 3:41pm

Powerhouse wrote: »

With respect, it might be a little naive to assume that public sentiment is going to come into this. Teachers will reject CP2 and it'll happen anyway, in the same way that Post-Primary teacher unions rejected CP1 and it happened anyway.

I think I would have to disagree with you there powerhouse, just from talking with other colleagues they said would say yes to CP2, no to strike action precisely because they're sick of the teacher bashing that goes on in the media, and are weary of strike action creating negative public sentiment.

Now don't get me wrong though, I agree that the vote will probably turn out as a no majority. But I'm just making the point that RQ recognises that there are a lot of teachers who are sensitive to public opinion. If he can split opinion within the teaching body then it will strengthen his hand... Same as how the best excuse for cuts is the public/private false debate trotted out by Independent news and media folk...

Mardy Bum · 05-04-2013 3:41pm

limnam wrote: »

I don't expect it to be measured, I expect it not to be brought into every discussion as it's not measured we have no idea how many teachers do it or how many hours that they spend doing it if any.

As we can't validate that. Stop bringing it up.

You are the one banging on about 65 euro an hour. It was brought up because teachers out of contact time must be taken into account if you are going to talk about the hourly wage.

RealJohn · 05-04-2013 3:42pm

limnam wrote: »

I don't expect it to be measured, I expect it not to be brought into every discussion as it's not measured we have no idea how many teachers do it or how many hours that they spend doing it if any.

As we can't validate that. Stop bringing it up.

How could possibly prove how much a person earns hourly when you've just admitted that you have no way of definitively measuring how many hours they work?
Like I've said, you've proven nothing. You're just peddling hearsay to suit your own agenda and you're ignoring everything else.

limnam · 05-04-2013 3:45pm

Mardy Bum wrote: »

You are the one banging on about 65 euro an hour. It was brought up because teachers out of contact time must be taken into account if you are going to talk about the hourly wage.

I'm basing this on the classroom hours based in the graph, not what some teachers say they work. On the measurable.

limnam · 05-04-2013 3:46pm

RealJohn wrote: »

How could possibly prove how much a person earns hourly when you've just admitted that you have no way of definitively measuring how many hours they work?
Like I've said, you've proven nothing. You're just peddling hearsay to suit your own agenda and you're ignoring everything else.

We can identify the classroom hours you keep stating. so if we base it on the hours that you state can clearly be measured. you can calculate the hourly wage. I feel like a school teacher. I understand your pain.

RealJohn · 05-04-2013 3:53pm

limnam wrote: »

We can identify the classroom hours you keep stating. so if we base it on the hours that you state can clearly be measured. you can calculate the hourly wage. I feel like a school teacher. I understand your pain.

You still haven't told us where in the pay scale you plucked €60,000 from. And this is the first time you've specified classroom hours as opposed to working hours.
Also, answer one question without dismissing it or evading it. Do you believe that teachers do any school work at all outside of class time? The answer is yes or no.

evolving_doors · 05-04-2013 3:56pm

limnam wrote: »

I can prove there is teachers on 65e an hour yes. All ready in the thread Please review.

God sake man teaching is a profession get over it... Your argument is like a joe duffy rabble rouser with a person who left school with zero qualifications and jumped into the building trade... Now their giving out about teachers..

What do you want for your kids? Do you think youll still get the same profile of people wanting to enter the profession if the pay is peanuts and on a part time ad hoc basis.

If you follow the postings in this forum youll find plenty of highly qualified people from other disciplines who are thinking of changing careers to teaching... Also 6th year students asking about teaching as a career... The general sentiment from responses is, don't bother unless you want to treat it like a part time job, because thats what it has become...

Teachers on € 65 per hour are a dying/retiring breed, those days are over my friend.

Mardy Bum · 05-04-2013 3:58pm

limnam wrote: »

I'm basing this on the classroom hours based in the graph, not what some teachers say they work. On the measurable.

This is my final reply to you as your lack of understanding or obstinate attitude means you are not worth responding too.
Permanent teachers are not paid hourly wages. They are paid a salary. All permanent teachers will work the full 22 hours. In order to work professionally in these 22 hours teachers will work extra hours anywhere between 10 and 25 depending on experience.
You will disregard this because you have decided to treat anything said by educators as untrue. Fair enough.

limnam · 05-04-2013 3:59pm

RealJohn wrote: »

You still haven't told us where in the pay scale you plucked €60,000 from. And this is the first time you've specified classroom hours as opposed to working hours.
Also, answer one question without dismissing it or evading it. Do you believe that teachers do any school work at all outside of class time? The answer is yes or no.

I have, please read the thread. The answer is as you well know and I'm scratching my head why you would ask. I have know way as much as you have no way to know how many hours a teacher does outside of classroom time if any. Don't tell me what my choice in answer's is. I'm not one of your students.

Teachers booing and heckling like children?

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