Is it Time for the tui &co to step up?

implausible · 28-02-2013 10:37am

Darwin wrote: »

TUI has rejected the new croke park proposals. I have to say I'm pleasantly surprised, perhaps all those angry emails had some effect.

They've rejected it because of the drastic changes to 3rd level conditions. It's very little to do with us secondary teachers I'd say.

There really should be a union for each sector - primary, secondary and third level,

TheDriver · 28-02-2013 10:48am

Musicmental85 wrote: »

I'm a VEC teacher so our contract only allows for 6 weeks summer holidays already.

My contract states I must attend 167 days?

kippy · 28-02-2013 10:50am

CP1 and indeed CP2 are and will work out worse than straight paycuts.
They have and will be expensive to implement, confusing for many, and have ended up creating multiple tiers of working terms and conditions in the same group of employees (not just in teaching)
They have come about in an environment of increasing costs for everyone and I have to say overall, looking at this and the effect it will have on morale in the service, two rounds of sliding paycuts would have probably caused less division within the ranks and ended up, probably being "fairer" and indeed saved more money in the longer term for the state.
At least in future those paycuts may have been clawed back, but clawing back some of the terms and conditions that have been lost is much more difficult.

Juniorhurler · 28-02-2013 10:59am

kippy wrote: »

CP1 and indeed CP2 are and will work out worse than straight paycuts.
They have and will be expensive to implement, confusing for many, and have ended up creating multiple tiers of working terms and conditions in the same group of employees (not just in teaching)
They have come about in an environment of increasing costs for everyone and I have to say overall, looking at this and the effect it will have on morale in the service, two rounds of sliding paycuts would have probably caused less division within the ranks and ended up, probably being "fairer" and indeed saved more money in the longer term for the state.
At least in future those paycuts may have been clawed back, but clawing back some of the terms and conditions that have been lost is much more difficult.

The last paragraph here is a lot of sense being spoken all in one mouthful. Actually, the whole post is.

john1963 · 28-02-2013 12:05pm

TheDriver wrote: »

My contract states I must attend 167 days?

memo v7 the teachers contract says 6 weeks leave in the summer

Powerhouse · 28-02-2013 1:25pm

Musicmental85 wrote: »

To be honest I could manage an extra hour a week if they had lengthened the school year (and spread out our current teaching hours). I cannot do it under the current conditions-I'm exhausted already. The government could have chosen to take this into account and brought the length of the school year to the table. Instead they decided to ignore it and try and force more hours in on top of us without considering the difficulties of the current system.

If we let this through I would expect the next thing to be our holidays anyways. I'm a VEC teacher so our contract only allows for 6 weeks summer holidays already.

Maybe I am missing something but I was under the impression that that the extra hour was simply the effect of the supervision allowance being withdrawn which meant that supervision now would come under normal teaching hours and that was therefore the 'extra' hour. Can someone clarify this?

solerina · 28-02-2013 1:35pm

Musicmental85 wrote: »

To be honest I could manage an extra hour a week if they had lengthened the school year (and spread out our current teaching hours). I cannot do it under the current conditions-I'm exhausted already. The government could have chosen to take this into account and brought the length of the school year to the table. Instead they decided to ignore it and try and force more hours in on top of us without considering the difficulties of the current system.

If we let this through I would expect the next thing to be our holidays anyways. I'm a VEC teacher so our contract only allows for 6 weeks summer holidays already.

I am not happy about the extra hour but I am in the school anyway so I will get over it.....nothing could make me agree to shorter school holidays....ever !!

TheDriver · 28-02-2013 2:15pm

Powerhouse wrote: »

Maybe I am missing something but I was under the impression that that the extra hour was simply the effect of the supervision allowance being withdrawn which meant that supervision now would come under normal teaching hours and that was therefore the 'extra' hour. Can someone clarify this?

You can do up to 2 hours 15 mins extra a week up to 49 hours a year. At moment, most people do maybe 1 hour yard a week and a class some weeks.
Also remember you must be available 5 classes a week and that means if you are off first, you most probably will be assigned that class and must come in every week 1st thing and wait. Also you can't go saying "I have an appointment" every week so you can't be used your last class, management will not have a budget to cover absent teachers unless they are out day 2 onwards on a cert. These are massive changes to conditions and teachers need to realise that you will most likely by in school 9-4 every day.

Before someone says "what if you just don't bother", well its like a timetabled class, its your responsibility and if you don't do it, then you are liable...

Powerhouse · 28-02-2013 2:30pm

TheDriver wrote: »

You can do up to 2 hours 15 mins extra a week up to 49 hours a year. At moment, most people do maybe 1 hour yard a week and a class some weeks.
Also remember you must be available 5 classes a week and that means if you are off first, you most probably will be assigned that class and must come in every week 1st thing and wait. Also you can't go saying "I have an appointment" every week so you can't be used your last class, management will not have a budget to cover absent teachers unless they are out day 2 onwards on a cert. These are massive changes to conditions and teachers need to realise that you will most likely by in school 9-4 every day.

Before someone says "what if you just don't bother", well its like a timetabled class, its your responsibility and if you don't do it, then you are liable...

But the question is if there is an extra hour teaching i.e. will we be teaching until 5pm one day, or is it a case that we will not be getting paid for supervision and that in fact is the 'extra' hour?

solerina · 28-02-2013 7:14pm

Powerhouse wrote: »

But the question is if there is an extra hour teaching i.e. will we be teaching until 5pm one day, or is it a case that we will not be getting paid for supervision and that in fact is the 'extra' hour?

I think the extra hour is the S&S hour not that we will actually have to stay an hour longer in the evening.

Powerhouse · 28-02-2013 9:06pm

solerina wrote: »

I think the extra hour is the S&S hour not that we will actually have to stay an hour longer in the evening.

That's what it seems to be to me, but when you get people almost suggesting working maybe an extra month to do the hour rather than 'cramming it in' to the current day it makes you wonder.

I also seriously have mu doubts if many will end up supervising 5 extra classes a week. It'd be rare enough that I have had to do even three as it is. In a situation where all teachers are taking part that should hardly change too much in practice.

TheDriver · 28-02-2013 10:14pm

but remember the budget for school biz and uncertified leave is gone and day of certs is also gone. Think of all the work subs used to do will now have to done by permanent/CID/FTC staff etc. Theres a lot more work than people realise and gone will be the "I'm not on til 10:30" as you could be rostered for 9am.I am making sure my staff know what this exactly means, no pay cut for most but there will be big changes to conditions............

whiteandlight · 28-02-2013 10:42pm

No one has suggested an extra month? I simply suggested that rather than this continous loading of our current week it would have been better (in my opinion!!) to have lengthened the year.

Remember we already have huge loading of additional evaluation, evidence of preparation, paperwork etc as well as the school self evaluation coming in next year.

This is really not just an extra class or two. It is another step down the road towards England's burn out of teachers

Fizzical · 28-02-2013 11:45pm

Temporary pay cut? According to the INTO site: "The Government has indicated that even if the Agreement is ratified, changes to salary, pension and pension levy will be underpinned by legislation."

Re pensionability of S&S contributions, the same site says: "In other areas of the Public Service, allowances held for any three of the last ten years of service can be used in the calculation of final salary. The teacher unions are seeking that these terms will apply to the S & S payment, thereby ensuring that any teacher who retires within the next 7 years would have this allowance fully included."

Seems you need to keep an eye on all the union websites for your information.

Powerhouse · 01-03-2013 12:18am

Musicmental85 wrote: »

No one has suggested an extra month? I simply suggested that rather than this continous loading of our current week it would have been better (in my opinion!!) to have lengthened the year.

But how would 'lengthening the school year' lighten any load? Whether it's s&s or class planning having a longer school year would simply mean more of it, as in you'd be doing it for longer and more of it. One of the real advantages of teaching is that whatever the pressure and workload, and it can be considerable, is that at least come early June it can be left behind.

TheDriver · 01-03-2013 12:43am

Fizzical wrote: »

Temporary pay cut? According to the INTO site: "The Government has indicated that even if the Agreement is ratified, changes to salary, pension and pension levy will be underpinned by legislation."

Re pensionability of S&S contributions, the same site says: "In other areas of the Public Service, allowances held for any three of the last ten years of service can be used in the calculation of final salary. The teacher unions are seeking that these terms will apply to the S & S payment, thereby ensuring that any teacher who retires within the next 7 years would have this allowance fully included."

Seems you need to keep an eye on all the union websites for your information.

worse again, I contacted a FG TD and the response I got was that new entrants may be reviewes during this agreement but over 65k, not a word.
I also got a line about how new entrants don't have mortgage and debt........

acequion · 01-03-2013 12:46am

I find it very worrying that so many people are putting their energies into discussing the exact nature of the proposed changes, using the word "will" as if they were already a foregone conclusion. Have people already resigned themselves to what they see as inevitable? If so, then this is the rock we've perished on for years!

It is absolutely imperative that we resist these changes! Our profession has been dragged through the mud, targetted and scapegoated, and not only by the government of the day, since the start of the recession. If we don't cry halt it will only get worse.Someone mentioned that our holidays will be next. It will be our degree allowances after that and probably the pension after that again. Even if we negotiated for a longer school year, it would get crammed in too.The unthinkable is happening.

It is all very scary because no logical person could endorse those working conditions as reasonable.Like another poster, I teach English.All higher level or mixed ability, all 27-30 per class.I spend hours marking the 4-7 page assignments in addition to swotting up the ever changing senior course.In addition to the multiple other tasks that efficient teaching entails.My school is huge so it's a hectic environment and we're struggling to cope with all the extra hours of Croke Park 1.Much as I enjoy the job, I find it exhausting.I never opted to do S&S and I am just horrified that I would be forced into it in a very big way.The very fact that we have some free classes, a late morning,early evening is what gives us breathing space.Without these, we would suffocate.

So there is a constant downgrading and degrading of our working conditions and if it continues I can't see any young teacher sticking it out for 30-40 years. One poster said that resistance doesn't have to be all out strike and I fully agree. Back in 2000 we worked to rule by withdrawing our voluntary S&S and ironically, that was the move which led to S&S being paid.

Resistance starts here as another poster said.Nobody should do anything more than his job.Nobody should do work which used to be a post. I know that part time teachers feel their hands are tied but it really is time to be courageous for the sake of the future of this profession and Irish education.Pay peanuts and you get monkeys.Is that how we want our children and grandchildren to be taught in the years ahead?

Inspector Coptoor · 01-03-2013 8:51am

Hear hear.

I'm so sick of this bullsh1t€.

The ASTI are a joke. A complete & utter waste of time.

Pandering to governments.

I wish the heads of all the unions were as voiciferous as Liam Doran in standing up for their workers rights - not just selling us down the Swanee.

The government have reneged on the longevity of CP1.

This is a breach of the agreement & an inherent lack of respect to PS workers.

The teacher congresses in the 2nd week of Easter should be cancelled & all teachers should take themselves off to Kildare St for a 4 day protest outside Leinster House.

That way we wouldn't be going in strike & we'd be using out holidays to get a message across - "enough is enough".

I'm sick of being treated like I'm part of a 2nd class profession.

Time to get bolshy

TheDriver · 01-03-2013 9:37am

Whats really got me going is the fight within the Govt about means testing farmers. Sorry, but where is this "fair and equitable" cuts we keep hearing about? If you own lots of land................

Powerhouse · 01-03-2013 9:43am

Inspector Coptoor wrote: »

The ASTI are a joke. A complete & utter waste of time.

Pandering to governments.

But the ASTI, like SIPTU and other unions has not yet made a recommendation on the agreement yet. Not sure how it can be accused of 'pandering to governments'. It might well recommend rejecting the new deal. At worst I'd have thought tardiness would be the main criticism that could reasonably be levelled at the ASTI.

Inspector Coptoor · 01-03-2013 9:52am

Powerhouse wrote: »

But the ASTI, like SIPTU and other unions has not yet made a recommendation on the agreement yet. Not sure how it can be accused of 'pandering to governments'. It might well recommend rejecting the new deal. At worst I'd have thought tardiness would be the main criticism that could reasonably be levelled at the ASTI.

And what about CP1?

What about selling new entrants down sh1t creek?

What about in 2004 when they shafted the new entrants then?

Juniorhurler · 01-03-2013 10:58am

TheDriver wrote: »

Whats really got me going is the fight within the Govt about means testing farmers. Sorry, but where is this "fair and equitable" cuts we keep hearing about? If you own lots of land................

As a man with a foot in both of these camps I disagree with this post. Land is only a means to make a living. All of the income gained from the asset should be assessed and taken into account, not the asset itself.

If this was the case a haulier should have all of his lorries valued and if the value of these crosses the threshold for grant, well then sell lorries to educate your family. Probably won't get grant but may end up on the dole. Which is worse for us all as taxpayers?

kippy · 01-03-2013 11:06am

Juniorhurler wrote: »

As a man with a foot in both of these camps I disagree with this post. Land is only a means to make a living. All of the income gained from the asset should be assessed and taken into account, not the asset itself.

If this was the case a haulier should have all of his lorries valued and if the value of these crosses the threshold for grant, well then sell lorries to educate your family. Probably won't get grant but may end up on the dole. Which is worse for us all as taxpayers?

Indeed but the housing tax is based on the same premise and it seems to be coming..........

The value of the house means nothing to me unless I sell it, I don't know how or why basing a tax on the (potential) value of a house is fair or equitable either.

(I dont agree with either concept, mind)

Powerhouse · 01-03-2013 11:15am

Inspector Coptoor wrote: »

And what about CP1?

What about selling new entrants down sh1t creek?

What about in 2004 when they shafted the new entrants then?

I think it's important to not talk of the union as if it some abstract entity agreeing to things we have no say in. The Croke Park agreement was accepted by the union members i.e. teachers themselves. It was people like us who 'sold new entrants down sh1t creek'. And if CP2 is accpeted it will be accepted by the same people.

Juniorhurler · 01-03-2013 11:27am

kippy wrote: »

Indeed but the housing tax is based on the same premise and it seems to be coming..........

The value of the house means nothing to me unless I sell it, I don't know how or why basing a tax on the (potential) value of a house is fair or equitable either.

(I dont agree with either concept, mind)

The government get no income tax from your house, hence the property tax. They already get income tax from the income earned on the farm if you get my point.
I have no problem with income being assessed for grant purposes or tax purposes or any other purpose for that matter. The asset is a different matter though in my opinion.
BTW it won't make any difference to me as my paye earnings will have me over threshold anyway.

kippy · 01-03-2013 11:37am

Juniorhurler wrote: »

The government get no income tax from your house, hence the property tax. They already get income tax from the income earned on the farm if you get my point.
I have no problem with income being assessed for grant purposes or tax purposes or any other purpose for that matter. The asset is a different matter though in my opinion.
BTW it won't make any difference to me as my paye earnings will have me over threshold anyway.

And what about the second house tax - dont they already get income earned off of that?

(I get your point to an extent but it makes no sense when you work it out to it's logical conclusion)

Powerhouse · 01-03-2013 11:56am

kippy wrote: »

Indeed but the housing tax is based on the same premise and it seems to be coming..........

The value of the house means nothing to me unless I sell it, I don't know how or why basing a tax on the (potential) value of a house is fair or equitable either.

(I dont agree with either concept, mind)

There is an argument (in the case of the house) that there is more to the value of a house than its potential sale value. That its value does not come in a vacuum and is determined by size, comfort, location, proximity to facilities etc. (which are factors in determining the initial value) and that it is not unreasonable to assert that its 'value' does have a benefit for the owner - that there is a clear inherent value and benefit going beyond potential resale monetary value. Not saying it makes the property tax more palateable, just saying that the argument is there.

Juniorhurler · 01-03-2013 12:33pm

kippy wrote: »

And what about the second house tax - dont they already get income earned off of that?

(I get your point to an extent but it makes no sense when you work it out to it's logical conclusion)

I don't agree with the second house tax either. Particularly now that the property tax is here.

The reason I don't agree with it is that
1) The govt. incentivised investor homes.
2) The govt. already got tax off the income used to pay for the house
3) It is double taxation when including the property tax

The second home tax was meant to pay for services to these homes. Now the property tax is meant to do that, the second home tax should be dropped in my opinion.

Anyhow, I would be happy enough to argue this all day in a designated thread if you like Kippy, but I am not going to derail this one any further. I do have a vested interest in the original argument though so I am declaring that my opinion is biased anyway.

acequion · 01-03-2013 5:34pm

Why are people going on about property taxes and land? Could they not start another thread for that and let people continue the discussion on union action or inaction on this thread.Please!

I emailed the ASTI with my concerns and complaints and received a rather snotty reply. Which has me feeling very uneasy as to whose side they're really on.

True, it was the members who voted to accept CP1 but that was at the time of the bail out when everyone was terrified of rumours of huge pay cuts when the IMF came rolling in. This time round, hopefully people will hold their nerve.

MacGyver007 · 01-03-2013 5:46pm

Inspector Coptoor wrote: »

Hear hear.

I'm so sick of this bullsh1t€.

The ASTI are a joke. A complete & utter waste of time.

Pandering to governments.

I wish the heads of all the unions were as voiciferous as Liam Doran in standing up for their workers rights - not just selling us down the Swanee.

The government have reneged on the longevity of CP1.

This is a breach of the agreement & an inherent lack of respect to PS workers.

The teacher congresses in the 2nd week of Easter should be cancelled & all teachers should take themselves off to Kildare St for a 4 day protest outside Leinster House.

That way we wouldn't be going in strike & we'd be using out holidays to get a message across - "enough is enough".

I'm sick of being treated like I'm part of a 2nd class profession.

Time to get bolshy

Well said. ASTI President Gerry Breslin was asked about this at a union meeting in Galway a couple of months ago (i.e. why aren't the ASTI more vocal) and how they were very quiet compared to the likes of Liam Doran. His reply: "And what has he achieved?" :rolleyes:

whiteandlight · 01-03-2013 6:01pm

Lol. True enough I suppose.

In answer to a post before the side track into farming.

In my own personal opinion I would have preferred to see the 49hours of unpaid work that we will be expected to do, to be taken from our summer holidays. Personally I would prefer to have a shorter holiday than make our teaching week any busier. It was only my own opinion.

RealJohn · 01-03-2013 6:02pm

acequion wrote: »

I emailed the ASTI with my concerns and complaints and received a rather snotty reply. Which has me feeling very uneasy as to whose side they're really on.

Any chance you can tell us what they said in their reply?

whiteandlight · 01-03-2013 6:05pm

I emailed my four local tds and no response from any of them

Inspector Coptoor · 01-03-2013 6:40pm

Powerhouse wrote: »

I think it's important to not talk of the union as if it some abstract entity agreeing to things we have no say in. The Croke Park agreement was accepted by the union members i.e. teachers themselves. It was people like us who 'sold new entrants down sh1t creek'. And if CP2 is accpeted it will be accepted by the same people.

It's also important to point out that the ASTI is behaving like an abstract entity.

They gave us bad advice about voting in CP1 & they aren't up in arms over its duration being cut by a full year.

I wouldn't be surprised if they did the same this time

The ASTI need to take a serious look at themselves & who it is they purport to represent .

No more going quietly into the night.
No more bovine docility.
Time for action

teacherhead · 01-03-2013 7:30pm

Inspector Coptoor wrote: »

It's also important to point out that the ASTI is behaving like an abstract entity.

They gave us bad advice about voting in CP1 & they aren't up in arms over its duration being cut by a full year.

I wouldn't be surprised if they did the same this time

The ASTI need to take a serious look at themselves & who it is they purport to represent .

No more going quietly into the night.
No more bovine docility.
Time for action

Will they be taxed on their bovine docility?

Seriously though, we need to reject this toff out of hand. CP1 was accepted in good faith and it has been reneaged on - game over.

I dont think that we should be talking about doing extra work in the summer rather than during term. We should be saying we are not doing extra work any time - as in never.

Take parent teacher meetings back to half in half out once we go over one per term. Back to the arrangements for meetings in school time.

Refuse to cooperate with junior cert reform, school self evaluation and whatever they dream up next. Literacy and numeracy strategies, cyber bullying guidelines we cannot expand a service on less time and less money full stop.

Less money and poorer conditions = less work.

Its as simple as that. Pay may rise but conditions will never be restored. It's hard to compare the 2004 situation with retirement ages etc being accepted to the current one - people got a pay increase to sweeten it. No incentive here at all.

Vote no.

MacGyver007 · 01-03-2013 7:40pm

Inspector Coptoor wrote: »

They gave us bad advice about voting in CP1 & they aren't up in arms over its duration being cut by a full year.

This breach of the first agreement is one thing that all unions should be highlighting; CP1's official title is "Public Service Agreement 2010-2014". In breaking it, therefore the 33 hours should go.

In some ways there are parallels with the 2004 situation with the announcement that those retiring before August 2014 will have their pension calculated on their pre-cut salaries. The difference is that new entrants were shafted then, with a pay rise for all to sweeten it; now they are trying to target younger public servants with a pension-based incentive for senior workers to get them to vote for it.

Darwin · 01-03-2013 8:22pm

I see RTE 6.1 news are still doing the dirty work of the government by advertising the "sweetners" to encourage certain groups to vote yes. It is incredible to think how utterly biased they are towards the public service - I clearly remember the one day strike a few years back where they reported on the vast number of teachers heading up north to do their shopping without a shred of evidence. Anyway I thought some here might like to know that there was a union meeting last Wednesday in the Teachers' Club in Parnell Square. Initially called by Officers of five Branches of TUI, the meeting also attracted members of IFUT, INTO, ASTI, IMPACT, SIPTU, and the CPSU. From our TUI rep:

The meeting was very positive and agreed specific actions towards securing rejection of the proposals for CPA 2.
The key themes of the meeting were
1. The need for unity among all public servants and their unions.
2. Determination to campaign successfully for a "No" vote in as many unions as possible, with a mass rally of union members in the near future as an important focus.
3. The need for clear, well-researched information on the CPA 2 proposals and for effective communication of that information to members.
4. The need for a grass-roots revolution among union members, with greater involvement and democracy at the heart of union affairs. This long-term goal will be greatly strengthened by concerted and determined action now from grass-roots union members.
5. Anger and disgust at the Government and ICTU for their combined action in attempting to bully public servants into accepting these appalling proposals.
A committee was formed representing the various teaching unions represented. This committee will meet tomorrow to begin to plan the rally and the research/communication campaign. A report will be issued as soon after the meeting as possible.
In the meantime, those present at the meeting and all members of public service unions are encouraged to:
Forward to education.no.to.sellout@gmail.com questions and points regarding the document which might support the committee's efforts.
Contact grass-roots members of their own and other unions to inform them that this campaign is underway.
email the Executive members of their own unions expressing their disagreement with the proposals and the action of union leaders in facilitating the Government agenda.

We have a meeting next week with the AGS of TUI, no doubt there will be a lot of very angry voices.

solerina · 01-03-2013 8:52pm

Musicmental85 wrote: »

Lol. True enough I suppose.

In answer to a post before the side track into farming.

In my own personal opinion I would have preferred to see the 49hours of unpaid work that we will be expected to do, to be taken from our summer holidays. Personally I would prefer to have a shorter holiday than make our teaching week any busier. It was only my own opinion.

I can see where you are coming from but the 49 hours are going to be used to 'trot around the corridors, yards etc' to make sure the kids are all safe/not killing each other etc....as well as covering for absent colleagues etc...if we did do a few extra weeks we would still end up doing the 49 hours so lose..lose in my opinion !!!

whiteandlight · 01-03-2013 8:55pm

That is very much dependent on the school and management, as I pointed out earlier in the thread we are generally expected to continue to teach students when on supervision with them. I've pretty much taught every subject at some stage or another now.

There is going to be huge discrepancy between managements in schools as to how this would be implemented

MacGyver007 · 01-03-2013 8:56pm

Central Executive Committee of the INTO has decided to ballot members without a recommendation

http://www.into.ie/ROI/NewsEvents/LatestNews/Title,28336,en.php

ShamoBuc · 01-03-2013 9:36pm

MacGyver007 wrote: »

Central Executive Committee of the INTO has decided to ballot members without a recommendation

http://www.into.ie/ROI/NewsEvents/LatestNews/Title,28336,en.php

Not too surprised really......utterly spineless.

Lord TSC · 01-03-2013 10:39pm

Darwin wrote: »

Forward to education.no.to.sellout@gmail.com questions and points regarding the document which might support the committee's efforts.
Contact grass-roots members of their own and other unions to inform them that this campaign is underway.
email the Executive members of their own unions expressing their disagreement with the proposals and the action of union leaders in facilitating the Government agenda.

Will be sending off an email over the next few days asking about how I worry the end of paid sub work is possibly tantamount to shutting the door on all new teachers, given it's the primary route of entry route into the profession.

Feel like I have to voice my annoyance at someone, and don't see much point at sending messages off to TDs or the likes.

teacherhead · 01-03-2013 11:03pm

I think we need to be clear here

Croke park asked for the following in return for no pay cuts and no compulsory redundancies.

Teachers

The provision, with effect from the start of the 2010/11 school year, of an additional hour per week to be available to facilitate, at the discretion of management, school planning, continuous professional development, induction, substitution and supervision (including supervision immediately before and after school times). This list is not exhaustive.

With effect from the start of the 2010/11 school year, post-primary teachers to be available for three timetabled class periods per week under the supervision and substitution scheme (while leaving the current maximum number of hours used per teacher per week under this scheme the same as at present).

Full implementation of new procedures providing for redeployment of surplus teachers, to commence from June 2010 and to be fully implemented for the start of the 2011/12 school year.

A comprehensive review and revision of the teaching contract to identify and remove any impediments to the provision of efficient and effective teaching to students in all sectors. This review and revision to be completed in advance of the start of the 2010/11 school year.

That was to run from 2010 to 2014

In addition to and in advance of that there was a cut in all pay and allowances and the pension levy was introduced. People accepted Croke Park in good faith. The Government has now broken that deal.

The so called Croke Park II proposal does the following

Provides for a pay cut for almost everyone

Asks for 82 extra hours per annum for no pay ( more than ten days extra work based on an 8 hour day) 49 + 33 = 82

Removes any earning potential for teachers on short hours who would supplement their hours with substitution.

Removes much of the opportunity for new teachers to get a start in the profession by way of substitution.

Paves the way for presentism - the requirement to be in school for the duration of the school day

And much more I'm sure when I think more about it.... the bottom line is that there was a benefit to CP1 there is no benefit to CP2.

Pay may be restored over time but conditions lost will never be regained.

Darwin · 01-03-2013 11:38pm

@teacherhead I agree with most of what you say, except the bit about there being a benefit to CP1.

Let's be very clear about this - working additional hours for no additional pay is a pay cut no matter how it is dressed up and on that front CP1 was also a complete fraud.

teacherhead · 02-03-2013 12:02am

Darwin wrote: »

@teacherhead I agree with most of what you say, except the bit about there being a benefit to CP1.

Let's be very clear about this - working additional hours for no additional pay is a pay cut no matter how it is dressed up and on that front CP1 was also a complete fraud.

True I meant that at the outset there certainly was a perceived benefit for most people and a level of trust among most that once the deal had run its course there would be an improvement.

I think it's worth noting that pay cuts for new entrants were a separate issue. There were many calls for teachers to take a cut to soften the blow to new entrants at that time - here is a cut in pay and still nothing tangible for those people.

An increment in 20 years on a half salary. They won't last that long.

acequion · 02-03-2013 1:33am

If forced to choose between a pay cut and extra hours, I would actually prefer a pay cut. My work time is maxed out as is and as posters say there's a far better chance of having the pay restored over time than conditions. Whichever way you look at it, it is utterly degrading and makes us a second class profession. I don't know how anyone could even conceive of voting for it on principle alone. It is heartening to hear about that meeting in the teacher's club in Dublin.Thanks to that poster for the information.

In the apocalyptic scenario that all this comes to pass and presentism becomes the norm,it would be the kiss of death to effective teaching as in class preparation and correction. What teacher would have the time and energy? It would be a case of clocking in and out like any 9-5 job,with loads of evening P/T meetings thrown in and a lot more exhausting. Great fun when the parental complaints came rolling in and when the inspector came calling.The grind schools would pick up the slack when the economy eventually recovers and it would be the birth of private education continental style in Ireland.They may as well privatise education while they're at it!

Vital to stick together en masse and put up one hell of a fight.

joebloggs32 · 02-03-2013 9:45am

MacGyver007 wrote: »

Central Executive Committee of the INTO has decided to ballot members without a recommendation

http://www.into.ie/ROI/NewsEvents/LatestNews/Title,28336,en.php

I am not surprised by their decision. This deal has a bigger impact on second level.

The s&s is really going to hit the subs hard, whereas this is not really an issue for primary teachers.

joebloggs32 · 02-03-2013 10:07am

teacherhead wrote: »

I think we need to be clear here

Croke park asked for the following in return for no pay cuts and no compulsory redundancies.

Teachers

The provision, with effect from the start of the 2010/11 school year, of an additional hour per week to be available to facilitate, at the discretion of management, school planning, continuous professional development, induction, substitution and supervision (including supervision immediately before and after school times). This list is not exhaustive.

With effect from the start of the 2010/11 school year, post-primary teachers to be available for three timetabled class periods per week under the supervision and substitution scheme (while leaving the current maximum number of hours used per teacher per week under this scheme the same as at present).

Full implementation of new procedures providing for redeployment of surplus teachers, to commence from June 2010 and to be fully implemented for the start of the 2011/12 school year.

A comprehensive review and revision of the teaching contract to identify and remove any impediments to the provision of efficient and effective teaching to students in all sectors. This review and revision to be completed in advance of the start of the 2010/11 school year.

That was to run from 2010 to 2014

In addition to and in advance of that there was a cut in all pay and allowances and the pension levy was introduced. People accepted Croke Park in good faith. The Government has now broken that deal.

The so called Croke Park II proposal does the following

Provides for a pay cut for almost everyone

Asks for 82 extra hours per annum for no pay ( more than ten days extra work based on an 8 hour day) 49 + 33 = 82

Removes any earning potential for teachers on short hours who would supplement their hours with substitution.

Removes much of the opportunity for new teachers to get a start in the profession by way of substitution.

Paves the way for presentism - the requirement to be in school for the duration of the school day

And much more I'm sure when I think more about it.... the bottom line is that there was a benefit to CP1 there is no benefit to CP2.

Pay may be restored over time but conditions lost will never be regained.

I couldn't agree more with you. If our conditions are changed, we will never get them back.
Also you are spot on about cronyism.
The new s&s will put many subs on the dole or force them to emigrate.

It is time to stand up to the government. We have already endured a pay cut, pension levy, croke park hours, increased availability on s&s, higher pupil teacher ratio, funding cuts, redeployment, changes to sick leave & maternity and reduced pay and pensions for new entrants.
Now we are being asked for another pay cut (s&s) with more hours, and a delay on the payment of increments or a reduction in pay for the older staff. Apart from that we are paying higher taxes, ever increasing health insurance, fuel costs, electricity, bin charges, childcare, bank charges (not to mention the rises in variable rate mortgages), insurance, motor tax,a property tax and next year water rates, and the latest one now the proposed broadcast charge.
That guy who left the ESRI last year should come back and revise up his figures on the cost of going to work.

One other thing, as stated earlier, the 'union' is not an abstract concept. It infuriates me when people give out about them, yet never bother going to a meeting. Turn up and make your voice heard, and more importantly your vote count

lennyloulou · 02-03-2013 12:24pm

hubbie on 17.5 yrs and makes up the rest of wages through weekly subbing. we cannot afford to take a hit in wages ( already have increase in health insurance which we barely can afford, now property tax, increase fuel charges to get to work etc- list goes on) anyhow the idea of S&S going so these classes would be subbed by full time established teachers for free is downright ridiculous. i also teach and this week alone I had a quick lunch and gave 35mins X4 days this week doing extra stuff at lunch. Between sport, prayer service planning etc. Total crap.
This CP2 cannot go through!!!!

Pwpane · 02-03-2013 2:05pm

The Irish Times today:

Separately the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform said a new “grace period” would be introduced to allow those who retired by August 2014 to have their pensions and retirement lump sums based on their current salaries.

However, there will be reductions in pension payments for staff who retired before the end of February 2012, since then, and who will retire up until the end of August 2014.

Does anyone know if these reductions cancel out the benefits of retiring early? Haven't those who retired before end Feb 2012 been cut already? I wonder how a body figure this out, if there would there be any point retiring early so as to try to protect your income.

Forked tongues come to mind.

Is it Time for the tui &co to step up?

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