Is it Time for the tui &co to step up?

And when Howlin came in and said that this will be the last time they come to us are we to presume that the eduction budget will be left alone in Budget 2014/15 an 2016?

No.

They will swing the hatchet again.

The way I see it is this. Two options.

1. Negotiate our pay cut and have extra hours thrown in on top to make our lives misery.

2. Withdraw from talks. Take a pay cut and tell them to go to hell with any extra hours. We are refusing to do it. Are they gonna sack 50 thousand teachers?

Since it is inevitable that pay will be cut, why should we negotiate it and inflict more stupid croke park hours on ourselves?

fall wrote: »

Teachers reported back to our school today from TUI meeting last night. They were told the proposals are:
Last payment of s and s will be march
S and s will become compulsory for all teachers without pay, so all teachers will be doing an hours free substitution every week
A and b posts will be scrapped for good.
Current A post teachers will be in the classroom 22 hours
They were unclear if this means that teachers currently being paid for these posts will be stripped off their allowances.
There was also a mention of cuts for those earning over €60,000.

Oh my God. This is relentlessly disheartening. If current A post holders have to work an additional 4 hours in the classroom, countless part-time staff will lose their jobs. I'm really going to have to seriously look at training for other professions.

Well it is not set in stone but it is what is proposed. It is very dis heartening and just shows that there is a complete disregard for all the other elements of our job outside the classroom. They really must think we just teach our classes and go home.

I would assume part time teachers would be on pro rata. I can see this full of issues where no one is available first in morning and last in evening but loads at 12 on a Wed etc. However it seems a likely way forward. I don't see any change this school year because agreement and a ballot will take a few months.

Regarding allocation, you get allocated x WTE. If you have an A post retire, your allocation remains the same however if that A post isn't replaced, then the 18 hour teacher is replaced by a 22 hour teacher so school does gain however the loss in a middle manager is a far greater loss for the school. You can also see no one willing to be year heads or doing other duties and the DP being over worked with discipline issues throughout the school. I also don't see how getting A posts to 22 hours will help because our allocations will be the same and it only affects a very small number of people.

I am curious how they will sort out the people who have paid pension on their S&S. I know the pensions board treat our payments as subscription as opposed to paying into a fund however we have paid 11-13 years of this scheme so it should be of some advantage to us since it started back in 2000s.

Cutting the over 60k won't get a lot of support because theres a lot of teachers on this, anyone with 20 years upwards (remember its the gross figure....). I thought they would go for the 100k upwards because its a much smaller cohort but easier to push through.

I'm wondering FALL is TUI meeting had bit too much speculation because theres a lot of talk out there however my own sources seem to have the S&S and extra hour as the only things on the cards at moment.

P.S. Did the GAA think their national pride stadium name would be taken with such disgust over the past few years, Croke Park is a horrible word for any of us to hear any more....... Theres no delight when staff talk about going to Croke Park now

I think few scare tactics are on the go at moment. Release from TUI officals are stating extra hour and no more S&S at moment which will both combined give pay savings.

NewGrad wrote: »

Unions have been too quiet thus far. No resistance to the reduced pay and allowances for new entrants and a lack of solidarity - in particular teachers. Government will push through cuts to long term staff now as they will point to lower earning new members.

unfortunately you must remember that any teacher with 2-40 years service are "long term staff" regarding conditions. Remember in 2004 they brought in new pension arrangements for entrants and times were good then.

Latest news is that TUI president Gerry Craughwell has been refused entry to talks this morning - I cannot say for sure by who. It is quite clear to me now that we are being sold out by the unelected officials of ICTU. Those Officials do not stand to lose one red cent if the talks result in pay and allowance cuts for TUI members and for the members of other unions. It would also appear that a deal is being rushed through in an attempt to counter any opposition to the talks that may emerge next week. I would urge any TUI members to contact their area rep for clarification on this, and also to immediately email the TUI executive committe, TUI president and general secretary demanding an immediate withdrawal from this sham. Next week will be too late.

There is a letter on the Tui website with yesterdays date from Gerry Craughwell outlining the content of the the recent talks.

TheDriver wrote: »

I think few scare tactics are on the go at moment. Release from TUI officals are stating extra hour and no more S&S at moment which will both combined give pay savings.

Any word on what type of extra hour is in question? For planning or for teaching? Lots of self evaluation and self assessment coming up. That wouldn't save money, just allow govt programmes to be carried out.

Is anybody else sick of the TUI's attitude to teachers with under 25 years service? For the last year or so I have been trying to gather the courage to resign my membership, but there are some very, ahem, *strong* personalities in our branch, and I am actually scared that they will find a way to make life hard for me if I do. (This is not just my imagination, there has been real malice there in the past.)
I would rather save the money the TUI is costing me, add it to my other savings, and use it as a safety net if it all goes tits up. Am I the only one who is utterly disillusioned with them? Anybody else thinking of leaving?

Twobadeyes wrote: »

Is anybody else sick of the TUI's attitude to teachers with under 25 years service? For the last year or so I have been trying to gather the courage to resign my membership, but there are some very, ahem, *strong* personalities in our branch, and I am actually scared that they will find a way to make life hard for me if I do. (This is not just my imagination, there has been real malice there in the past.)
I would rather save the money the TUI is costing me, add it to my other savings, and use it as a safety net if it all goes tits up. Am I the only one who is utterly disillusioned with them? Anybody else thinking of leaving?

If it wasn't for unions you would probably be working every hour God sent and teaching 35 kids in every class.

Yes they have their faults at times but it's like old age, a real bummer, until you consider the alternative.

linguist wrote: »

I think everyone seems resigned to S&S being scrapped and that's the way it's likely to be. However, I would be stunned if this was done mid-year. It would seem to be a breach of contract, particularly for non-permanent teachers. Also, the February/March payment has only ever amounted to an advance. It was never payment in full for hours worked to that point. The education system works per academic year. I would imagine that any changes will begin to take effect in September.

These negotiations are for Croke Park 2 which is 2014-2016, they are not part of the original agreement so I can't see how it would affect this academic year.

linguist wrote: »

I definitely think there's something in the argument that S&S is pensionable and therefore part of core pay for those who have signed up. I'm not sufficiently expert on the legalities, but I would hope that someone would have the guts to take a case or look for compensation. There would appear to be an argument for a 'buy out' based on lost pension benefits at least.

Regarding the A posts, that would be a shock - no question about it. I'm inclined to agree that this sounds like a scare tactic. Remember that there has been limited alleviation for posts lost and secondly I don't think this process is about cutting jobs. If anything, there is a superficial desire to see senior people take some of the pain that the new entrants have taken. Personally though, I despise this squalid race to the bottom and the manner in which we seem to be sleepwalking into it.

S&S is pensionable but only for those who sign up to it, it is not part of core pay in my opinion. It's not like the degree/dip allowance which is available to everyone that holds the qualifications. There was no obligation to sign up, and what does 'pensionable' mean anyway? Our wage (those pre-2010, old pay scale etc) receive a pension based on their final wage salary when they retire.

So I can do my 35-40 years and retire on top of the scale + Special Duties post etc, and get my pension, or I can do S&S for the next 30 years so my final salary will be approximately 1k higher finishing. Assuming I do 40 years and we get half of our final salary as a pension, the S&S in 30 years time would be worth 500 extra a year on the pension. When I realised I'd have to do 30 years of S&S for that I said fcuk it, it's not worth the hassle. If I'm that badly stuck for 500 a year when I'm 65 I'll have far bigger problems to think about. I did it for 6 or 7 years and then I bailed out about 2 years ago and I can't say I miss it.


If I'm badly stuck in retirement 15-20 1 hour grinds would see me right for €500 a year, far easier than 37 hours a year of freezing my arse off on outdoor lunchtime duty in the middle of winter for the next 30 years.

linguist wrote: »

Sorry to disagree with the first part of your answer rainbowtrout, but this is about an extension to the Croke Park agreement and the Government has made it clear that it wants the savings flowing asap. In practice, they want savings from this summer.

So anything that simply involves money will come in as quickly as they can arrange it. That would include S&S. Assuming it's going, it will be scrapped at the end of the current school year.

Anything more complex that could impinge on teacher allocations, redeployment etc would almost certainly not come in so soon as those processes are well in train already. To be honest, I really don't expect anything in this deal that would amount to fewer jobs in schools than envisaged in the budget. There is every chance that the distance a person can be redeployed will be increased, but given the timescale required for the unions to consider a deal and for a ballot to be held, plus the sequencing of its implementation by the Implementation Body, all I realistically see coming in by September is the scrapping of S&S.

Ya I agree with you, I just didn't phrase it very well, I don't expect S&S to be cut in the middle of this academic year, and as the original CP agreement has agreed not to touch core pay, S&S could be wiped out as it wouldn't be seen as core pay. It's not part of the contract you sign up for when you start teaching in a school. Core pay covers what you are entitled to for the hours you teach.

We got the notices about voluntary redeployment a few weeks ago, I think it said on the form 'you can be redeployed within 50km of school or home address (teacher's choice)' but it also gave a space where a preferred area could be listed ...giving leeway for redeployment further away, if it suited the teacher of course. I know one of the teachers in my school wants to move closer to their home area which is well outside the 50km radius.