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Can you be 'overqualified' to teach at primary school level?

  • 31-03-2013 5:46pm
    #1
    Transposition
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21 ✭


    Hi,

    I'm facing a bit of a dilemma at the moment and would love some advice. I'm enrolled in a PhD program in Philosophy (since last Sept) and a some of my research topic deals with the Philosophy of Education. I recently did two days of observation in a primary school near enough where I live, and it changed things quite a lot for me.

    I've decided I don't want to pursue the lecturing path, but would like to teach at national school level. I think I would be well-suited to it, as I love working with children and can teach music and art particularly well. My problem is that I don't feel it makes sense any longer to remain doing my PhD, as it's only peripherally related to education (and making it more so would be an artificial effort). I don't think it's of sufficient practical relevance to justify me continuing with it (as it had been when my hopes were to become a lecturer). And of course if I'm feeling like that, my passion to pursue it suffers accordingly.

    Now, personally I'm not of the opinion that you can be overqualified to teach at primary school level (or any teaching level for that matter), but I'm aware that there some people who might feel this way (at the very least, they might suspect that someone with a PhD going for a primary school teaching position most likely 'had other ideas', if you get me). What do you think?

    And what uses (if any) might a PhD serve at primary level, in your opinion? Although I don't think I would feel the itch to go beyond the classroom myself (as the teaching of children is just what I'd love about it - so privileged and purifying compared to other working atmospheres!), I'm interested to know what sorts of alternative career opportunities exist within the primary education system, and whether a PhD would be useful in this regard? And if so, would it need to be in the field of education itself (rather than the 'philosophy of')?

    I'd be grateful for any input at all. Thanks.


Comments

  • #2
    byhookorbycrook
    Moderators, Education Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 12,505 Mod ✭✭✭✭byhookorbycrook


    The first thing I would say to you is that there are hundreds and hundreds of qualified and experienced primary teachers unemployed at the moment .These teachers struggle to find even a few days subbing. Meanwhile ,the likes of Hibernia continue to churn out more and more post grads to this already oversubscribed job market.

    Sorry to be so negative, but sadly, it's the reality on the ground. I just checked on education posts and there are 18 posts advertised- for the entire country, not counting principal jobs. Only 9 of these jobs are in mainstream classes.


  • #3
    Transposition
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21 ✭Transposition


    byhookorbycrook wrote: »
    The first thing I would say to you is that there are hundreds and hundreds of qualified and experienced primary teachers unemployed at the moment .These teachers struggle to find even a few days subbing. Meanwhile ,the likes of Hibernia continue to churn out more and more post grads to this already oversubscribed job market.

    Sorry to be so negative, but sadly, it's the reality on the ground. I just checked on education posts and there are 18 posts advertised- for the entire country, not counting principal jobs. Only 9 of these jobs are in mainstream classes.

    Thanks for your post. Although I'm aware that the job prospects are quite grim and I don't doubt the truth of what you say, can you provide any links that show the numbers of unemployed primary school teachers (if there are such links)? It's just for my own further reading and not as a request to 'back up' what you say as, I'll say again, I can't think of any reason to doubt it.


  • #4
    Miss Lockhart
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,639 ✭✭✭Miss Lockhart


    I don't think you would be considered overqualified. I also think you might be surprised by how many teachers have a PhD.


  • #5
    StillWaters
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,799 ✭✭✭StillWaters


    Miss Lockhart wrote: »
    I don't think you would be considered overqualified. I also think you might be surprised by how many teachers have a PhD.

    I would. Im involved with shortlisting quite a bit, and of, say 100 applicants, 5 or less might have a PhD, it does not gain them extra points at the shortlisting level, it may do at interview depending on how they sell it.


  • #6
    Miss Lockhart
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,639 ✭✭✭Miss Lockhart


    StillWaters wrote: »
    I would. Im involved with shortlisting quite a bit, and of, say 100 applicants, 5 or less might have a PhD, it does not gain them extra points at the shortlisting level, it may do at interview depending on how they sell it.

    My experience would agree that it is around 4-5% of new entrants to teaching. That is a lot higher than most outside the profession would think.

    I also agree that it won't help with shortlisting - but I don't think it would count against them either and I don't think it's anything to do with being considered overqualified.


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  • #7
    dambarude
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 2,503 Mod ✭✭✭✭dambarude


    With qualification inflation it won't be long before everybody has a PhD anyway ;)

    I've heard of teachers who have 'Dr. XXXXX' on their door, and are referred to as Dr. instead of Mr. or Mrs./Miss/Ms. And this is at primary level.


  • #8
    Transposition
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21 ✭Transposition


    dambarude wrote: »
    With qualification inflation it won't be long before everybody has a PhD anyway ;)

    Ha yes, I know what you mean.
    dambarude wrote: »
    I've heard of teachers who have 'Dr. XXXXX' on their door, and are referred to as Dr. instead of Mr. or Mrs./Miss/Ms. And this is at primary level.

    Really? Seems a bit silly to me to bother with the Dr. prefix at primary level irrespective of one's qualifications. What do you think?


  • #9
    whiteandlight
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,359 ✭✭✭whiteandlight


    Not sure why you seem unsure of all of the information on this forum which points to lack of jobs. Look at educationposts.ie as pointed out above, for the jobs out there. All public sector primary school jobs must be advertised on this so it shows you what the country is like. Also have a read of this:
    http://www.independent.ie/lifestyle/education/teachers-flood-schools-with-job-applications-28825076.html


  • #10
    Transposition
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21 ✭Transposition


    Miss Lockhart wrote: »
    My experience would agree that it is around 4-5% of new entrants to teaching. That is a lot higher than most outside the profession would think.

    I also agree that it won't help with shortlisting - but I don't think it would count against them either and I don't think it's anything to do with being considered overqualified.

    Well I'm glad to hear you don't think it would count against them.

    My other question - whether a PhD in a certain field could be of benefit in terms of opening up other career opportunities within teaching (not necessarily to the exclusion of working in the classroom) - anyone have any opinions/advice here? And if such opportunities exist, what sort of PhD would be recommended?

    Apologies if this question comes across as impossibly vague.


  • #11
    Transposition
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21 ✭Transposition


    Musicmental85 wrote: »
    Not sure why you seem unsure of all of the information on this forum which points to lack of jobs. Look at educationposts.ie as pointed out above, for the jobs out there. All public sector primary school jobs must be advertised on this so it shows you what the country is like. Also have a read of this:
    http://www.independent.ie/lifestyle/education/teachers-flood-schools-with-job-applications-28825076.html

    Thanks for this.


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  • #12
    cackhanded
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 211 ✭✭cackhanded


    Firstly OP, if you feel that primary school teaching is your calling and you can be fulfilled and satisfied in that career, then go for it wholeheartedly and with all the work ethic you took into your PHd. Don't expect the PHd to open too many doors for you in the profession however, of far more importance is your ability to transmit knowledge to children, and to foster a sense of inquiry and a thirst for knowledge and understanding.
    As has already been pointed out, there are very few jobs in primary teaching in Ireland. If you are certain it is for you then you would do well to explore teaching in the UK, which is also oversubscribed but still has greater possibilities than back home.
    byhookorbycrook wrote: »
    The first thing I would say to you is that there are hundreds and hundreds of qualified and experienced primary teachers unemployed at the moment .These teachers struggle to find even a few days subbing. Meanwhile ,the likes of Hibernia continue to churn out more and more post grads to this already oversubscribed job market.[

    Have the other Colleges of Education stopped producing promary teachers?? :confused:


  • #13
    StillWaters
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,799 ✭✭✭StillWaters


    dambarude wrote: »

    I've heard of teachers who have 'Dr. XXXXX' on their door, and are referred to as Dr. instead of Mr. or Mrs./Miss/Ms. And this is at primary level.
    That is bizarre. I have never heard of this practice, and would be appalled at a school that practiced it.


  • #14
    dechol
    Registered Users Posts: 291 ✭✭dechol


    I don't think you can be overqualified but I wonder whether it is worth continuing if your heart is not in it. Not sure of your situation but it could be very expensive and time consuming to pursue both. Also entry to training is very competitive and training is the guts of two years. Have u Irish requirement ?What I am trying to say is that it can take some people three years to finish with doing the Irish leaving cert honours paper and then training so if you still have a few yrs left of your phd it could be years before u are actually in a classroom. Hope that makes sense.


  • #15
    Miss Lockhart
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,639 ✭✭✭Miss Lockhart


    dambarude wrote: »
    With qualification inflation it won't be long before everybody has a PhD anyway ;)

    I've heard of teachers who have 'Dr. XXXXX' on their door, and are referred to as Dr. instead of Mr. or Mrs./Miss/Ms. And this is at primary level.

    Oh that's ridiculous. What bad taste!


  • #16
    Moody_mona
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,107 ✭✭✭Moody_mona


    I know of two Dr instead of Ms but that's at second level. I don't see the big deal to be honest. There's a few I teach with who insist on being called Mrs since they're married, it's pretty similar really!

    I don't think having a PhD will help job prospects as a teacher, maybe if you considered a principalship or some department job. To be honest, at primary level, the ability to coach a team, conduct a choir or design a school mural would stand out more.


  • #17
    RealJohn
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,099 ✭✭✭RealJohn


    Don't see the issue with someone with a Ph.D wanting to be called Dr. Whatever. You don't see priests and nuns teaching as Mr. or Miss. rather than Fr. or Sr. so why shouldn't someone who's earned the title Dr. use it? The only issue I'd see is that you'd have students banging on your door looking for plasters the whole time.

    On topic, as has been pointed out, the Ph.D wouldn't be a hindrance and might give you a slight edge over someone without one but any advantage you might have would be negligible. You did ask if you should "artificially" push the Ph.D more towards education and I'd say if you're sure you want to teach then you probably should, if only to maximise whatever edge it might give you (because otherwise you're just someone else with a Ph.D that isn't actually relevant to what you want to do).


  • #18
    rainbowtrout
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,382 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


    cackhanded wrote: »



    Have the other Colleges of Education stopped producing promary teachers?? :confused:

    No they haven't, but Hibernia were to allowed to go ahead with a course to produce primary school teachers when realistically there probably wasn't a need, hence even more people qualified to teach all competing for an ever diminishing pool of jobs, and the general feeling I get from people that come on here going 'what are my job prospects?' are probably looking at that going, 'well they wouldn't be running the course if there weren't jobs' which is not true.

    Hibernia also got the go ahead last year to run the PDE in second level education, an area which is already massively oversubscribed, so there will be even more unemployed graduates as it is. Their first graduates of that program are finishing this summer.

    Nothing against Hibernia as such, and it has allowed people to qualify through distance learning where other options may not have suited them, but teacher training is saturated and has been for a number of years.


  • #19
    Powerhouse
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,428 ✭✭✭Powerhouse


    RealJohn wrote: »

    Don't see the issue with someone with a Ph.D wanting to be called Dr. Whatever. You don't see priests and nuns teaching as Mr. or Miss. rather than Fr. or Sr. so why shouldn't someone who's earned the title Dr. use it? The only issue I'd see is that you'd have students banging on your door looking for plasters the whole time.


    Not really sure this comparable to be honest. A Priest or Nun gives up their entire life to do that job - it's far more than a job for them I suppose. It hardly compares with someone who undertook a qualification almost certainly not relevant or necessary for their job. I can understand at univeristy level where the person would not be there without the qualification and there is an obvious context for it, but at Primary level or even Post-primary level, it smacks of 'you do know I did a PhD don't you?' rather than having any immediate relevance.


  • #20
    dambarude
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 2,503 Mod ✭✭✭✭dambarude


    rainbowtrout wrote: »
    No they haven't, but Hibernia were to allowed to go ahead with a course to produce primary school teachers when realistically there probably wasn't a need, hence even more people qualified to teach all competing for an ever diminishing pool of jobs, and the general feeling I get from people that come on here going 'what are my job prospects?' are probably looking at that going, 'well they wouldn't be running the course if there weren't jobs' which is not true.

    Hibernia has increased it's intake progressively over the last few years to around 800 per annum now. It's hard to get exact figures. According to its website it "now provides more primary school teachers each year than any other course in the country".

    Personally the main problem I would have with Hibernia is the quantity of teachers it produces, rather than the quality of said teachers. It is very galling to think that they would move to increase intake at such a time.


  • #21
    Transposition
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21 ✭Transposition


    Thanks all for your input, it's greatly appreciated and has given me a lot to think about.


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