Biomass imports

blue5000 · 17-07-2019 11:54am

Another stumbling block with it before, was that Edenderry wanted it chopped up for them as well as delivered. Problem with that is it's easier to deliver big square bales than loose, chopped miscanthus. They wanted someone else to chop it on site after delivery.

Is this Australian wood chipped before shipping?

Odelay · 17-07-2019 1:48pm

blue5000 wrote: »

Another stumbling block with it before, was that Edenderry wanted it chopped up for them as well as delivered. Problem with that is it's easier to deliver big square bales than loose, chopped miscanthus. They wanted someone else to chop it on site after delivery.

Is this Australian wood chipped before shipping?

Yes, it’s arriving in bulk bags.

YFlyer · 17-07-2019 7:16pm

foxy farmer wrote: »

Is there any miscanthus growing now? I draw silage bales off 3 fields that were growing miscanthus for last 10 yrs. No one here can remember it ever being cut once.

The miscanthus was too acidic for the peat burning plant.

my3cents · 17-07-2019 7:26pm

YFlyer wrote: »

The miscanthus was too acidic for the peat burning plant.

I'll take your word for it but how can anything be more acidic than peat?

YFlyer · 17-07-2019 7:56pm

my3cents wrote: »

I'll take your word for it but how can anything be more acidic than peat?

The high chlorine content along with the alkali metals in the miscanthus causing salts to form.

Aravo · 17-07-2019 9:44pm

my3cents wrote:

I'll take your word for it but how can anything be more acidic than peat?

Plenty of high moisture peat got a good dose of diesel to help it on its way in life at the power stations. One would be surprised at how much is spent on diesel at the plants.

tabby aspreme · 17-07-2019 10:26pm

Both miscantus and willow, growing here in south kildare , Farrellys from Carnaross harvest both in March each year, don't know where it's going to.

What price would biomass need to be, to make the branches and brash left from sitka clear fell, viable to collect.

gozunda · 17-07-2019 10:31pm

Reggie. wrote: »

And every other country is investing in it and the government here are more worried about electric cars

And of those falling over themselves to buy EV cars fueled by electricity - the bulk of which is sourced from fossil fuels...

It doesn't matter that the slow boat from Australia costs feck all - the transport of this type of biomass still requires billions of tons of fossil fuel for transport alone ...

I love the eejits flagitlating themselves over the idea of 'environmentally friendly' biomas ...

Water John · 17-07-2019 10:34pm

AFAIK there is beet from as far south as Carlow going to NI, not to be fed to livestock.

We, like most EV owners charge by night, largely from renewables.

gozunda · 17-07-2019 11:11pm

Water John wrote: »

...

We, like most EV owners charge by night, largely from renewables.

Unfortunately - that is little better than a myth tbh. It is impossible to separate renewables from fossil fuel on the current grid system. Fossil fuel sources dont suddenly get turned off at 9.00 pm or whenever. Plus people avail of free daytime charging for their electical vehicles. Sure why wouldn't they? There's no charge. However those that dont use it must also subsidise it - whether they would want to or otherwise.

Keep Sluicing · 17-07-2019 11:17pm

Water John wrote: »

AFAIK there is beet from as far south as Carlow going to NI, not to be fed to livestock.

We, like most EV owners charge by night, largely from renewables.

I know of maize going from Cork to Armagh .... not to feed animals either.

JJayoo · 17-07-2019 11:23pm

I see many many fields growing fine heavy crops of rushes, not a blade of grass to be seen.

Could you cut, dry and bale rushes for these bio mass burners?

Plenty of lazy cnuts have fine crops

PoorFarmer · 17-07-2019 11:41pm

JJayoo wrote:

I see many many fields growing fine heavy crops of rushes, not a blade of grass to be seen.

JJayoo wrote:

Could you cut, dry and bale rushes for these bio mass burners?

JJayoo wrote:

Plenty of lazy cnuts have fine crops

There is some type of trial currently ongoing in Clare with rushes being used as biochar but nothing for biomass AFAIK. There is/was a trial in Scotland on using heather/bracken/whatever else grows on mountain areas as biomass but not sure of any results.

You dont have to be a lazy cnut to grow rushes. Some are just unlucky to be located on marginal ground and dont have a choice but to have a certain amount of rushes in the sward

Say my name · 17-07-2019 11:46pm

Water John wrote: »

AFAIK there is beet from as far south as Carlow going to NI, not to be fed to livestock.

We, like most EV owners charge by night, largely from renewables.

Energia is to invest €3 bn Euro in renewable energy in the next few years on the island of Ireland.
Before anyone glosses over that. Think about it... a private company that's going to spend €3 billion Euro on the renewable energy sector on this island.
They obviously see a good return on investment.

The windpower generation payment system has changed in this country. It was a system that windpower companies got paid whenever the turbines turned. That's changed to a system now that they'll only get paid now if that power is getting used on the grid.
That means now that there can be excess windpower potentially not being utilised by the grid.

The answer...
Investment in hydrogen generation to fully utilize the windfarms.

Wright's in Ballymena have the contract now to make hydrogen buses for London and next? Belfast. .Dublin??

The hydrogen can also be turned into methane if required too.

JJayoo · 17-07-2019 11:47pm

When a previously fine meadow becomes 95% rushes I think it's fair enough to call him a lazy feecker

Birdnuts · 18-07-2019 12:20am

Say my name wrote: »

Energia is to invest €3 bn Euro in renewable energy in the next few years on the island of Ireland.
Before anyone glosses over that. Think about it... a private company that's going to spend €3 billion Euro on the renewable energy sector on this island.
They obviously see a good return on investment.

The windpower generation payment system has changed in this country. It was a system that windpower companies got paid whenever the turbines turned. That's changed to a system now that they'll only get paid now if that power is getting used on the grid.
That means now that there can be excess windpower potentially not being utilised by the grid.

The answer...
Investment in hydrogen generation to fully utilize the windfarms.

Wright's in Ballymena have the contract now to make hydrogen buses for London and next? Belfast. .Dublin??

The hydrogen can also be turned into methane if required too.

Many windfarms are already running at a loss - likely to need further state aid in the future, frankly the energy policies in this country have been a slow car crash for the last 20 years. When the book is written on this it will make the "Cash for Ash" scandal in NI look like very small beer indeed!!

http://irishenergyblog.blogspot.com/2018/11/leitrim-wind-farm-racks-up-losses-of-56.html

http://irishenergyblog.blogspot.com/2018/04/canadian-company-sell-loss-making-irish.html

MrMusician18 · 18-07-2019 1:33am

gozunda wrote: »

And of those falling over themselves to buy EV cars fueled by electricity - the bulk of which is sourced from fossil fuels...

It doesn't matter that the slow boat from Australia costs feck all - the transport of this type of biomass still requires billions of tons of fossil fuel for transport alone ...

I love the eejits flagitlating themselves over the idea of 'environmentally friendly' biomas ...

It's not environmentally friendly unless it's sourced locally. You do however need fuel to get things going, and a market set up. It is expected that these two stations will transition to locally sourced biomass. In fact they have to if BnM wants to stay as a key midlands large employer.

gozunda · 18-07-2019 8:54am

MrMusician18 wrote: »

It's not environmentally friendly unless it's sourced locally. You do however need fuel to get things going, and a market set up. It is expected that these two stations will transition to locally sourced biomass. In fact they have to if BnM wants to stay as a key midlands large employer.

Yeah that's the point I was making. Personally what's going on at present is little more than eyewash. There is plenty of biomas already being used and grown in the country. One example is the huge amounts of brash coming from coilte forests. Afaik some of this is currently going to Edenderry. That could be expanded to private forestry. There are plenty of other potential sources as well - if we had a dedication to do so. Tbh the powers that be are falling over themselves to look greener than green and they are pushing sources of renewables and electricity even though all these are heavily dependant on fossil fuels. I don't believe all the hogwash atm. The whole thing is heavily subsidised. All so a few can showcase they are being virtuous and 'green'. Smoke and mirrors imo.

Markcheese · 18-07-2019 11:46am

Biomass is very "tricky" environmentally, there's the transport of a bulky, not hugely energy dense product, the gases and particulate released when burnt, dealing with the Ash, and crucially what would have happened to wood / brash if it hadn't been deemed biomass, if it otherwise would have been left on the forest floor, it probably would have slowly composted, become soil, locking up carbon, and sustaining more growth.

JJayoo · 18-07-2019 12:27pm

Wonder could you dry and burn seaweed?

my3cents · 18-07-2019 12:50pm

JJayoo wrote: »

Wonder could you dry and burn seaweed?

It burns, collecting it stacking it to dry and burning it to produce potash and other nutrients was historically part of many families lives that lived near the sea. Link to a paper on it for the north https://www.jstor.org/stable/25617457

ganmo · 18-07-2019 1:07pm

JJayoo wrote: »

Wonder could you dry and burn seaweed?

wouldn't think it'd be viable at small scale, and at large scale you run into environmental concerns

Odelay · 18-07-2019 1:48pm

gozunda wrote: »

Yeah that's the point I was making. Personally what's going on at present is little more than eyewash. There is plenty of biomas already being used and grown in the country. One example is the huge amounts of brash coming from coilte forests. Afaik some of this is currently going to Edenderry. That could be expanded to private forestry. There are plenty of other potential sources as well - if we had a dedication to do so. Tbh the powers that be are falling over themselves to look greener than green and they are pushing sources of renewables and electricity even though all these are heavily dependant on fossil fuels. I don't believe all the hogwash atm. The whole thing is heavily subsidised. All so a few can showcase they are being virtuous and 'green'. Smoke and mirrors imo.

Brash that isn’t being collected isn’t more than 150 ton per day. Still another 2.850 tones a day to fill. The plenty of biomass already been grown that you refer to, well that already has a market. What will fill that market demand if it’s moved to the power plants?
I think fiber will become very lucrative in the years to come.

Odelay · 18-07-2019 1:54pm

gozunda wrote: »

Unfortunately - that is little better than a myth tbh. It is impossible to separate renewables from fossil fuel on the current grid system. Fossil fuel sources dont suddenly get turned off at 9.00 pm or whenever. Plus people avail of free daytime charging for their electical vehicles. Sure why wouldn't they? There's no charge. However those that dont use it must also subsidise it - whether they would want to or otherwise.

This is a kiddie like years ago pointing out that combustion engines would never work because they needed steam or horses to deliver the fuel to them.
Things change. Night charging will the normal. Wind energy will power much of that. Power stations will cope with drops in wind like they are starting to do now. They offer incentives to large electricity users to power off non critical but high consumption parts of their factories at five seconds notice. This is already happening.

gozunda · 18-07-2019 2:44pm

Odelay wrote: »

This is a kiddie like years ago pointing out that combustion engines would never work because they needed steam or horses to deliver the fuel to them.
Things change. Night charging will the normal. Wind energy will power much of that. Power stations will cope with drops in wind like they are starting to do now. They offer incentives to large electricity users to power off non critical but high consumption parts of their factories at five seconds notice. This is already happening.

Nope. The reply was pointing out that the statement that EVs only power up at night on renewables is complete bullocs.

Yes indeed things change. But bs remains much the same. No idea why the arguing with your 'kiddie' remarks etc tbh. But there you go.

gozunda · 18-07-2019 2:50pm

Odelay wrote: »

Brash that isn’t being collected isn’t more than 150 ton per day. Still another 2.850 tones a day to fill. The plenty of biomass already been grown that you refer to, well that already has a market. What will fill that market demand if it’s moved to the power plants? I think fiber will become very lucrative in the years to come.

I can only take it - that is again unsubstantiated? I've checked the sources - and there is no figures available of unharvested brash. So an unknown. The proposition is also that there is a lot of private forestry brash which is not being utilised. And yes that is only part of the solution as detailed.

ganmo · 18-07-2019 3:02pm

http://forestenergy.ie/
thats where you'll find the studies

Panch18 · 18-07-2019 3:17pm

Say my name wrote: »

Energia is to invest €3 bn Euro in renewable energy in the next few years on the island of Ireland.
Before anyone glosses over that. Think about it... a private company that's going to spend €3 billion Euro on the renewable energy sector on this island.
They obviously see a good return on investment.

The windpower generation payment system has changed in this country. It was a system that windpower companies got paid whenever the turbines turned. That's changed to a system now that they'll only get paid now if that power is getting used on the grid.
That means now that there can be excess windpower potentially not being utilised by the grid.

The answer...
Investment in hydrogen generation to fully utilize the windfarms.

Wright's in Ballymena have the contract now to make hydrogen buses for London and next? Belfast. .Dublin??

The hydrogen can also be turned into methane if required too.

I firmly believe that hydrogen will be the way forward - I'm hoping to skip the whole electric car buzz, I see it as a intermediary solution

Say my name · 18-07-2019 6:18pm

Panch18 wrote: »

I firmly believe that hydrogen will be the way forward - I'm hoping to skip the whole electric car buzz, I see it as a intermediary solution

The 3rd generation Toyota Mirai I think will be out next year.
But it's a chicken and egg situation the car manufacturers won't fully commit to hydrogen until they believe the demand and infrastructure is in place and the hydrogen makers and sellers won't really take it seriously unless they think there'll be a demand.
Then there's the hydrogen infrastructure with some wanting to develop production facilities beside windfarms and others having it near urban areas and use gas piping infrastructure.
If it does develop naturally it'll be 15 years before there's any different manufacturers making cars and suv's and the infrastructure in place.

ganmo · 18-07-2019 6:42pm

Panch18 wrote: »

I firmly believe that hydrogen will be the way forward - I'm hoping to skip the whole electric car buzz, I see it as a intermediary solution

From the science side of things I cant think of a more energy demanding fuel to manufacture than hydrogen.
And it's not exactly the easiest to store once made

Panch18 · 18-07-2019 7:30pm

ganmo wrote: »

From the science side of things I cant think of a more energy demanding fuel to manufacture than hydrogen.
And it's not exactly the easiest to store once made

The storage issues are being addressed at the moment. I think if hydrogen had the investment that electric has had they’d probably be further along in development now. The Japanese seems to think hydrogen is the way forward. Toyota and Honda are both going big on it

I defiantly think the commercial fleet will be hydrogen powered. Some countries moving that way already

emaherx · 18-07-2019 7:31pm

ganmo wrote: »

From the science side of things I cant think of a more energy demanding fuel to manufacture than hydrogen.
And it's not exactly the easiest to store once made

It's abundant in the universe, yes energy intensive to separate from water but we will have large energy costs no matter what route we take. It can be produced with electricity from renewables (it wouldn't matter if production fluctuates with lack of wind or cloudy days). At least with vehicles running on hydrogen we wouldn't need to wait for cars to charge.

No reason we can't stick with internal combustion engines running on a variety alternative renewable fuels. Electric cars can have a place as run-arounds but can't see them as the solution with current battery technology.

There is also the fact that currently we need to extract some fossil fuels for plastics and other products which we don't have alternatives to. The left overs from these have only one useful purpose which is fuel otherwise how do we dispose of?

Say my name · 18-07-2019 9:21pm

ganmo wrote: »

wouldn't think it'd be viable at small scale, and at large scale you run into environmental concerns

It was viable for hundreds of years on a small scale. It's viable if smallholders actually go and do the work. But today's generation are allergic to that work coupled with shore right's being bought now by private corporations for seaweed harvesting means the smallholder is lost at sea.

Use man made kelp farms trained on ropes like you would use for lobster pots in bays and the environmental concerns are washed aside by interest in carbon capture.

Biomass imports

Comments