New Garda powers to allow access to mobile phones, changes to ‘stop and search’

allan96 · 14-06-2021 1:39pm #1

A person who refuses to surrender a password for a mobile phone or other device to gardaí will be committing a crime and could face up to five years in prison and a fine of up to €30,000 under new legislation being unveiled on Monday.

The move comes as more crime has migrated online where it is carried out on phones, computers and other devices protected by personal logins.

Garda sources said the pandemic had accelerated the commission of large numbers of crimes, including minor offences such as low-value drugs transactions, on messaging apps as in-person contact became restricted. They believed that trend would remain long after the pandemic and that the new power was vital to strengthen Garda searches to include access to mobile phones and other devices.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/new-garda-powers-to-allow-access-to-mobile-phones-changes-to-stop-and-search-1.4592434?mode=amp&fbclid=IwAR31fnsDnnR0dAXPFrn4cjl_K5OESQG5S7AuJ7Pjs06qvkSpeqp6AyeDguc

*nervously clears internet search history *

dilallio · 14-06-2021 1:44pm

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/new-garda-powers-to-allow-access-to-mobile-phones-changes-to-stop-and-search-1.4592434

A person who refuses to surrender a password for a mobile phone or other device to gardaí will be committing a crime and could face up to five years in prison and a fine of up to €30,000 under new legislation being unveiled on Monday.

The move comes as more crime has migrated online where it is carried out on phones, computers and other devices protected by personal logins.

I read this article this morning, and I was wondering if similar laws exist in other European countries.

The article does not go into any detail on what safeguards would be in place to ensure that this would not be abused by the Gardai.

For example, if a suspect had some other embarassing or incriminating content on their device not directly related to why they were under investigation, would this be used to coerce them?

I'm interested in hearing more learned opinions on how this law could work practically.

purplefields · 14-06-2021 1:44pm

Also from https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/new-garda-powers-to-allow-access-to-mobiles-and-other-devices-1141159.html :

Under the new Bill, gardaí will also have the power to arrest and detain a person until the name and other identity details they have supplied to gardaí are verified as genuine. They will also be given new powers to stop and search vehicles, with random stops to be allowed when child abduction or human trafficking cases were being investigated.

Ireland really need some kind of civil liberties organisation like they have in other countries.
After Covid, I can't see myself staying in Ireland for much longer. (Especially now with the corp tax changes and facebook remote working.)

MAJJ · 14-06-2021 1:47pm

dilallio wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/new-garda-powers-to-allow-access-to-mobile-phones-changes-to-stop-and-search-1.4592434

I read this article this morning, and I was wondering if similar laws exist in other European countries.

The article does not go into any detail on what safeguards would be in place to ensure that this would not be abused by the Gardai.

For example, if a suspect had some other embarassing or incriminating content on their device not directly related to why they were under investigation, would this be used to coerce them?

I'm interested in hearing more learned opinions on how this law could work practically.

Is it clear if this is after being arrested or charged?

pioneerpro · 14-06-2021 1:49pm

MAJJ wrote: »

Is it clear if this is after being arrested or charged?

When told they have a warrant.

14-06-2021 1:53pm

Gone to hell in a handcart, etc etc...

TheValeyard · 14-06-2021 1:53pm

Probably end up in the European Courts with a challenge I'd say.

14-06-2021 1:55pm

purplefields wrote: »

Also from https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/new-garda-powers-to-allow-access-to-mobiles-and-other-devices-1141159.html :

Ireland really need some kind of civil liberties organisation like they have in other countries.
After Covid, I can't see myself staying in Ireland for much longer. (Especially now with the corp tax changes and facebook remote working.)

That would be the ICCL - Irish Council for Civil Liberties

https://www.iccl.ie/

Considering this was just announced today, expect to see something from them after they have reviewed the legislation rather than the headlines about it.

I will say this, I find it unlikely that the whole password thing will pass review. Something, something, you cant be forced to incriminate yourself

Smee_Again · 14-06-2021 1:55pm

pioneerpro wrote: »

When told they have a warrant.

I might be watching too many US cop dramas but, in general, is it enough to tell the accused(?) that you have a warrant or do you have to give them a physical copy?

MrMusician18 · 14-06-2021 1:55pm

Such powers will only be of use against non sophisticated criminals. Encrochat like phones run parallel operating systems with one touch destruction.

In fact, laws like this will probably increase the use of such software. It may be a double edged sword for investigators where they would've been able to get passwords through social engineering or observation, note when have to contend with evidence destruction.

Jerry Attrick · 14-06-2021 1:56pm

All sounds good to me.

But then again, I've nothing to hide, and unlike Herrick or the Data Protection Commissioner I don't particularly want to see criminals and fraudsters benefitting from the GDPR and other "privacy is more important that putting scumbags away" legislation.

Robbo · 14-06-2021 2:04pm

Threads merged on this.

The general scheme of the Bill can be viewed here.

I'd expect that there'll be substantial involvement from civil liberties groups on this as the Bill progresses.

allan96 · 14-06-2021 2:08pm

Jerry Attrick wrote: »

All sounds good to me.

But then again, I've nothing to hide

"nothing to hide" is the wrong approach to it.

purplefields · 14-06-2021 2:11pm

Jerry Attrick wrote: »

All sounds good to me.

But then again, I've nothing to hide, and unlike Herrick or the Data Protection Commissioner I don't particularly want to see criminals and fraudsters benefitting from the GDPR and other "privacy is more important that putting scumbags away" legislation.

I've got all my private stuff to hide.

0lddog · 14-06-2021 2:13pm

MrMusician18 wrote: »

Such powers will only be of use against non sophisticated criminals. Encrochat like phones run parallel operating systems with one touch destruction... .

You seem to be very well up in this topic

For myself, I've lost count of the number of email accounts that people tell me I had but I cant remember. Will I get a fine for each account that I cant remember ?

pioneerpro · 14-06-2021 2:14pm

Smee_Again wrote: »

I might be watching too many US cop dramas but, in general, is it enough to tell the accused(?) that you have a warrant or do you have to give them a physical copy?

Not only is it enough to just tell them, but you don't need a Judge for a search warrant. The Courts of Justice Act 1924 gives Peace Commissioners the power to issue summons and warrant - a nice loophole that the Gardai in Dublin have been abusing for years in terms of getting weekend/late hours warrants with less than two hours turnaround.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/leaving-cert-party-host-told-gardai-get-a-warrant-they-did-and-now-hes-in-court-on-drugs-charge-30123285.html

ratracer · 14-06-2021 2:14pm

Great!
I think Gardaí should have a lot more powers, but unless the courts and legal system are overhauled also, they are wasting their time, as the legal eagles tend to always find a loop-hole somewhere to get convictions quashed/ overturned/ thrown out, and the judiciary uphold it.

pioneerpro · 14-06-2021 2:18pm

The saddest thing is the arguments from the hoi polloi on basic questions of governance and society that were indisputably answered centuries ago. Case in point.

Jerry Attrick wrote: »

All sounds good to me.

But then again, I've nothing to hide

If you give me six lines written by the hand of the most honest of men, I will find something in them which will hang him.
- Cardinal Richelieu

I don't particularly want to see criminals and fraudsters benefitting from the GDPR and other "privacy is more important that putting scumbags away" legislation.

Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety
- Ben Franklin

pioneerpro · 14-06-2021 2:20pm

ratracer wrote: »

Great!
I think Gardaí should have a lot more powers, but unless the courts and legal system are overhauled also, they are wasting their time, as the legal eagles tend to always find a loop-hole somewhere to get convictions quashed/ overturned/ thrown out, and the judiciary uphold it.

As with any erasure of civil rights, this only has a chilling effect on the civil liberties and social justice afforded to the ordinary and the innocent. The rich and the criminal classes, by definition, live outside of the normal constraints of civil society and its associated justice system.

punisher5112 · 14-06-2021 2:21pm

If it's used wrongly for personal vendetta then no it's a bad thing but if it's done legally and within the correct procedure set out to protect people's personal data etc and not leaked or so on when that person has committed no crime.

If this can be used to catch criminals, to disrupt their gains from crime and all that then I'm happy....
To be honest we should be hearing of huge raids daily and crime gangs squashed and all assets removed.

Tacitus Kilgore · 14-06-2021 2:23pm

Seems to be soemwhat pointed at roaming burglary gangs and human trafficking?

Head 10 provides a power for a Garda to stop and search a vehicle and any persons in the
vehicle where the member has reasonable grounds to suspect that a specified serous or terrorist
offence is occurring or is about to occur for evidence of that offence. The Garda does not need
to reasonably suspect that the vehicle or person being searched is involved in the offence. This
power allows for random searches, for instance at roadblocks. The power can be exercised in
a public place or any other place where the member is, at that time, entitled to be.

Although, unless I'm mistaken, the above pretty much gives carte blanche to search anyone and or any vehicle at any time - whether suspected of being involved in a schedule 2 crime or not - sched 2 is quite detailed but seeing as the gardai don't need to consider you a suspect in order to stop and search - i would read it as open to serious abuse?

pioneerpro · 14-06-2021 2:24pm

Tacitus Kilgore wrote: »

Seems to be soemwhat pointed at roaming burglary gangs and human trafficking?

It's somewhat pointed at parallel construction based on the Graham Dwyer case about to fall apart.

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/technology/concern-over-graham-dwyer-phone-records-case-a-crisis-of-state-s-own-making-1.4412864

There are over 18,000 requests for data retention information every year, 98% of these by Gardai. All of these are incompatible with EU law, with no oversight.

Yurt2 · 14-06-2021 2:24pm

If there was proper judicial oversight (which let's be real, there probably won't be) this wouldn't be much of an issue. I think I recall an ICCL report where they dug into judicial oversight of bugging or wiretapping (I think, something to do with privacy at its heart), and they came to the conclusion that a nominated High Court judge does a quick scan of the previous year's snooping approved by the Garda Comish, does a plaintive check and rubberstamps it and is out the gap in a half day.

On balance, such powers are probably needed, but the Gardai (and in fairness most police forces and intelligence agencies) are maximalists, and will press for as much power as they can get away with without too much thought for civil liberties concerns.

I do think we have an oversight issue and a presumption that just because the Gardai say they need it, it should be given to them no questions asked. AGS are just like any organisation, yes there are outstanding committed people of integrity in there, but there will also be dunderheads, incompetents and even the malevolent by the law of averages.

ratracer · 14-06-2021 2:27pm

Interesting that the first thoughts of commentators on here is that the gardai will abuse the powers/ innocents will suffer etc……. I must be from a different time/ place.

Witcher · 14-06-2021 2:29pm

Gardai already have this power when executing a Section 48 warrant.

14-06-2021 2:30pm

Jerry Attrick wrote: »

All sounds good to me.

But then again, I've nothing to hide, and unlike Herrick or the Data Protection Commissioner I don't particularly want to see criminals and fraudsters benefitting from the GDPR and other "privacy is more important that putting scumbags away" legislation.

There’s always one.

Give me a copy of the keys to your house please, I’d like to have a rummage around. I know you won’t mind as you’ve nothing to hide.

pioneerpro · 14-06-2021 2:31pm

ratracer wrote: »

Interesting that the first thoughts of commentators on here is that the gardai will abuse the powers/ innocents will suffer etc……. I must be from a different time/ place.

Really? Because the Mainstream media, the State, and the Policing Commission thought abuse of Gardai power and inherent corruption was so endemic in the organisation they had no choice other than to bring in someone from the PSNI as head of the unit.

Susan O'Keefe in that noted bastion of wishy-washy liberal thinking, the Sunday Business Post, makes a very succinct and deeply disturbing summary of exactly how incredibly serious the scale of the problem has been over the last 30 years.

https://www.businesspost.ie/crime/susan-okeeffe-garda-anti-corruption-unit-is-decades-overdue-84676158

Hell, lets take a recognised authority in Ireland in this area instead:

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40264043.html

A top legal expert has said it is “doubtful” An Garda Síochána will address the threat posed by internal corruption in spite of a recent hard-hitting report by the Garda Inspectorate.

Professor Dermot Walsh, who specialises in criminal justice and policing, said that while the report was comprehensive and incisive, he felt the recommendations were less impressive and could reflect a “resignation” at the prospects of real change.

The inspectorate’s report flagged a range of serious corruption issues, including: A “poor grasp” in the force of the threat posed by gardaí abusing their power for sexual gain; the threat posed by inadequate vetting procedures, and the need for a properly empowered and resourced Garda Anti-Corruption Unit (ACU).

In a lengthy analysis of the report, Prof Walsh said: "Given the resilience of internal garda corruption over the years, it is doubtful that the report will prove to be a gamechanger.”

The professor of law at University of Kent said shelves “were stacked” with the findings and recommendations of many reports on individual instances and systemic forms of corruption.

He said that despite all the official commitments and programmes of action for reform, the contents of the inspectorate’s report suggested that there had been “little actual progress”.

The academic said the topic and recommendations of the report had a “depressingly familiar ring”, which he said included abuse of garda powers.

He said it was a “poor reflection” on garda management that “basic and banal” recommendations from the inspectorate had to be made in 2021.

Prof Walsh said that a “more profound culture shift” will be required to deliver meaningful change.

In relation to concerns on abuse of garda discretion, he said the inspectorate’s recommendations “do not inspire confidence that change will be realised on the ground”.

So the question isn't 'Are the Gardai systemically corrupt' its 'How do we curb their unconstitutional/non-EU aligned powers and introduce oversight equivalent to the rest of Europe'

tayto lover · 14-06-2021 2:34pm

This is great news in the battle against criminals.

sprucemoose · 14-06-2021 2:42pm

pioneerpro wrote: »

Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety
- Ben Franklin

i was waiting till someone threw out one of these quotes which are usually either out of context or just made up https://www.npr.org/2015/03/02/390245038/ben-franklins-famous-liberty-safety-quote-lost-its-context-in-21st-century?t=1623677475480 have a read of that

Yurt2 · 14-06-2021 2:49pm

Batrachotox wrote: »

There’s always one.

Give me a copy of the keys to your house please, I’d like to have a rummage around. I know you won’t mind as you’ve nothing to hide.

Indeed. I know someone who had their house raided, an amount of weed for personal use was found, and who found themselves in front of a judge on serious charges as if he was part of a Pablo Escobar-like conspiracy. Luckily, he had access to good legal counsel and the case was quashed by the judge. (He's a guy that has Aspergers and would buy weed from time to time as he found it helped him day-to-day; a real harmless sort).

I also have a barrister pal who confided that he routinely sees Gardai lie through their teeth and sex-up evidence in court in an effort pot people at all costs.

Beware the bored Guard in a provincial town looking for a promotion.

In case anyone is confused, I'm not against these powers, as long as there is proper oversight in how it is used and deployed.

ratracer · 14-06-2021 2:51pm

pioneerpro wrote: »

So the question isn't 'Are the Gardai systemically corrupt' its 'How do we curb their unconstitutional/non-EU aligned powers and introduce oversight equivalent to the rest of Europe'

Should we align the Gardai with the rest of Europe in terms of being fully armed? How about body cams, which again the ICCL seem against but because the gardai might abuse it, rather than use it for evidence gathering, like the rest of European forces?

I’m not a member of AGS btw, just a member of the public.

New Garda powers to allow access to mobile phones, changes to ‘stop and search’

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