EA Requesting an Inappropriate Level of Information

Dav010 · 17-06-2021 11:18am

MacDanger wrote: »

So if you were in Savill's and (assuming for a second that data protection laws don't exist) you received information about 5000 prospective buyers and how much money they could afford to pay, you wouldn't use that information in any way to inform the setting of price for the next release of houses in that area? Really??

When you have 5000 applying for 44 houses, house prices are reportedly rising at €500 per week, there has been a slowdown in build completions, the CB publishes stats on mortgage approvals, stats on income levels etc, do I think Savills care about/use data from previous launch applicants? No, they don’t give a flying f**k about what you or the op can afford, because they don’t need to.

Again, the paranoia that the EA is some nefarious being that will punish you with your data the next time you go to buy, is mad.

Dav010 · 17-06-2021 11:21am

javaboy wrote: »

lol where do you think prices come from? Hint: they're not based on the cost of land, labour, and materials.

It's not paranoia at all. This information is a goldmine. Have a look on the other threads here about the detail people go into when analysing trends on the PPR, Daft reports, constructing detailed spreadsheets on price movements in their area etc. People on all sides of the property market are trying to glean whatever little hints they can about where prices are going next. You've got people agonising over bidding strategies and so on.

Assuming someone in Savills have even the tiniest amount of tech savvy, they can lump this data on a spreadsheet, order the buying capacity in descending order and set the price accordingly. They're not going to have to "go looking for your application from a year ago".

I'm not saying they will. Maybe they'll purge the data immediately. Maybe they won't abuse the knowledge they get but misusing this data would be baby stuff for someone with rudimentary knowledge of Excel.

You can apply the exact same logic to those dodgy landlords who offer discounts in exchange for "personal" favours.

I’m going to say prices come from demand and previous selling prices, and little consideration is given to what mortgage people can afford.

MacDanger · 17-06-2021 11:33am

Dav010 wrote: »

When you have 5000 applying for 44 houses, house prices are reportedly rising at €500 per week, there has been a slowdown in build completions, the CB publishes stats on mortgage approvals etc, do I think Savills care about/use data from previous launch applicants? No, they don’t give a flying f**k about what you or the op can afford, because they don’t need to.

Again, the paranoia that the EA is some nefarious being that will punish you with your data the next time you go to buy, is mad.

So you're saying that EAs use data from other sources (CB, daft reports, etc.) to set their house prices, right?

But if this particular dataset (related to 5000 prospective buyers in the area) were available, they wouldn't use it - why not? Because it's not relevant? Or because they already have enough datasets on which to set the house prices?

MacDanger · 17-06-2021 11:45am

Dav010 wrote: »

Again, the paranoia that the EA is some nefarious being that will punish you with your data the next time you go to buy, is mad.

BTW, if you'd consider EAs nefarious for using this data, I'd consider them stupid/incompetent if they're not using it (in a legal manner)

RotaryPhone · 17-06-2021 11:58am

Dav010 wrote: »

I understand what is going on here.

I understand there are 100 applicants for every single house in that development, tens of thousands of people trying to buy houses today. Don’t stand in your own way, every buyer hates the thought of some twit who bids beyond their means and wishes the EA was more diligent in checking proof of funds.

This is a launch where deposits on purchases are accepted on the day from those who can show proof of funds. Yes, transfer exactly the right amount you need into a savings account, jeez you can do this using your phone, it only takes a couple of seconds, then give the info you need to help yourself. This was just discussed on The Last Word, they said Savills Compliance checked to see if what they are doing is legal, and as they purge data of those who don’t buy, they are not in breach of DP.

So, stand on your principles, pay rent, or help yourself, your choice.

Everything you've said here is talking about bidding. Savills (and others) are asking for this for viewings.

And it's not just as simple as showing a screenshot of the amount in your savings. I've been asked for the pin for my Help To Buy application just to secure a viewing. Maybe you're OK with that, but many others who value their privacy are not.

So no, I don't think you fully grasp what's going on here.

ec18 · 17-06-2021 12:06pm

Dav010 wrote: »

When you have 5000 applying for 44 houses, house prices are reportedly rising at €500 per week, there has been a slowdown in build completions, the CB publishes stats on mortgage approvals, stats on income levels etc, do I think Savills care about/use data from previous launch applicants? No, they don’t give a flying f**k about what you or the op can afford, because they don’t need to.

Again, the paranoia that the EA is some nefarious being that will punish you with your data the next time you go to buy, is mad.

The point people are trying to make to you is that. If you need to weed out tyre kickers, say proof of funds is required for viewing and maybe proof of booking deposit available or sale agreed in the case of movers. It's less work for them to sort through those documents than the overhead to go through all the other details requested. (Unless they are using some sort of software package which would raise other questions)

The request for essentially what a bank requests for mortgage applications is overkill to secure a show house viewing.

You are correct in one thing though expecting the DPC to some sort of guardian angel is silly. The only way to discourage these practices is for all the buyers on the list to refuse to supply the information. Sadly that's unlikely in the current market. As less than 1% need to provide these details for the phase to sell out (44/5000 * 100 = 0.88%)

AndrewJRenko · 21-06-2021 3:25pm

ec18 wrote: »

You are correct in one thing though expecting the DPC to some sort of guardian angel is silly.

The guardian angel has landed

https://twitter.com/CBridge_Chief/status/1406966497432453127?s=19

ec18 · 21-06-2021 3:29pm

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

The guardian angel has landed

https://twitter.com/CBridge_Chief/status/1406966497432453127?s=19

That's a good result, no ambiguity in the recommendation. Wonder will we see any movement from Savills on it

Graham · 21-06-2021 3:41pm

No surprises there.

Glad to see the guidance is completely unambiguous.

Haven't finished reading yet but......

The DPC does not consider there can be any justification (covid 19-related restrictions included) for the extensive collection of personal data such as financial statements, proof of funds, utility bills, PPS numbers etc. from prospective purchasers at the initial stages of advertising or hosting viewings of a property.

As suspected, fails both the data minimisation and purpose principles.

Saviils might need to go shopping for some new compliance advisors. :pac:

K.Flyer · 21-06-2021 7:01pm

Over the weekend I was speaking with a fairly high up person in BoI about this carry on and they were saying that Savilles are totally out of order demanding un-redacted bank statements etc, and that Savilles were out of line on many levels.
They said that at most for the viewing stage that name and contact details and a letter from the bank stating that funds were available to cover the purchase of the property were all that the estate agents are entitled to.

Graham · 21-06-2021 7:09pm

K.Flyer wrote: »

They said that at most for the viewing stage that name and contact details and a letter from the bank stating that funds were available to cover the purchase of the property were all that the estate agents are entitled to.

I can't see how they'd be entitled to any financial/banking information from someone that hasn't yet decided if they want to buy.

That's pretty much the gist of the DPC guidance.

Bass Reeves · 21-06-2021 7:09pm

K.Flyer wrote: »

Over the weekend I was speaking with a fairly high up person in BoI about this carry on and they were saying that Savilles are totally out of order demanding un-redacted bank statements etc, and that Savilles were out of line on many levels.
They said that at most for the viewing stage that name and contact details and a letter from the bank stating that funds were available to cover the purchase of the property were all that the estate agents are entitled to.

That all an EA should be entitled to at any stage. So much for there legal opinion from there compliance officer

MacronvFrugals · 22-06-2021 4:24pm

The DPC has given their opinion -

https://twitter.com/OCallaghanCian/status/1407358460778405896?s=20

K.Flyer · 22-06-2021 5:04pm

MacronvFrugals wrote: »

The DPC has given their opinion -

https://twitter.com/OCallaghanCian/status/1407358460778405896?s=20

Means nothing..

That says "...no justification", no mention of should not, must not, stop or cease and why.
Pure waffle, nothing about which regulations may be contravened by requesting such information.
They are either told to stop and why or they will carry on.

Graham · 22-06-2021 5:11pm

K.Flyer wrote: »

Means nothing..

Means the agency in question are likely to wind their neck in fairly quick.

Moreso after the DPC said it had contacted Savills to register its concern about the practice.

A warning shot across the bow is normally enough. I don't see this case being any different.

meijin · 22-06-2021 5:33pm

Graham wrote: »

A warning shot across the bow is normally enough. I don't see this case being any different.

Great. But is there any penalty if they don't comply?

Calahonda52 · 22-06-2021 5:36pm

Savills need to lose their licence just like that pub in Dublin
Anyway, post brexit, what are they doing here

Graham · 22-06-2021 5:39pm

meijin wrote: »

Great. But is there any penalty if they don't comply?

There is:

There are two tiers of administrative fines that can be levied as penalties for non-compliance:

Up to €10 million, or 2% annual global turnover – whichever is higher.
Up to €20 million, or 4% annual global turnover – whichever is higher.

You might see why a 'friendly' registering of concern is generally sufficient.

FileNotFound · 22-06-2021 5:48pm

Not sure if many will agree with me here but:

Having gone through the process and had some dodgey stuff happen on multiple properties, the EA we finally bought through requested a lot of info pre viewing.

I asked them about it and they said it actually ensures fake bidders do not get involved and time wasters are not in the mix.

Since they would see all the financials anyway I had no issue and was happy with this.
I had been outbid on multiple properties (me and anon in bidding wars) only for the other magic bidder to disappear at the end and the property offered to me at my last top bid - of course this disappearing bidder had driven the price by 30k +
I guess given the number of collapsed sales and impacts it can have on people in chains, ensuring you can cover your bid is not the worst thing.

Guess its this mindset versus them knowing you have more to spend, I did come across a lot of questionable EA's, Castle Estate, Lisney Dundrum etc. big and small so can understand why people would not like to give all details.

Graham · 22-06-2021 5:51pm

FileNotFound wrote: »

Having gone through the process and had some dodgey stuff happen on multiple properties, the EA we finally bought through requested a lot of info pre viewing.

I asked them about it and they said it actually ensures fake bidders do not get involved and time wasters are not in the mix

Bidding stage is different, I would expect to be asked to prove I have the funds if I'm bidding.

To arrange a viewing, not a chance.

FileNotFound · 22-06-2021 5:56pm

Graham wrote: »

Bidding stage is different, I would expect to be asked to prove I have the funds if I'm bidding.

To arrange a viewing, not a chance.

Good point, we did not have to present anything for viewings, only pre bidding.

I'd agree that I would probably tell them where to go. If I was a seller and my EA was reducing potential bidders by asking for such details I'd find a new EA.

Maybe a letter in the home owners door saying Cash buyer here who loves your home but won't work with an EA that asks X, Y & Z might help.

javaboy · 22-06-2021 7:24pm

FileNotFound wrote: »

Since they would see all the financials anyway I had no issue and was happy with this.

The EA doesn't really need to see "all the financials" even if you go all the way and complete the purchase. Personally I wouldn't go beyond redacted AIP or a letter from your solicitor or bank saying you can cover the purchase amount.

They have legitimate reason to ask if you're a cash buyer or have AIP or not since it factors into the chance of the sale falling through.

EA Requesting an Inappropriate Level of Information

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