Old Young Farmers

agriman27 · 20-01-2015 1:54pm #1

Is there anyone else on boards an 'old young farmer' like myself aged 28, a group of people who missed out on the installation aid when it ended and started farming around the years around 08, 09 and are not eligible for the 'young farmer top up'. I think the top up isn't fair for anyone who started between 08 and 14 really seems a bit flawed

Username John · 20-01-2015 2:04pm

agriman27 wrote: »

Is there anyone else on boards an 'old young farmer' like myself aged 28, a group of people who missed out on the installation aid when it ended and started farming around the years between 07-10 and are not eligible for the 'young farmer top up'. I think the top up isn't fair for anyone who started between 07 and 14 really. It's not fair either that someone who started out in 2010 only gets one years top up and 2011 two years and so on

I think it was 08 or maybe start 09 that the Young Farmers installation Aid stopped?

agriman27 · 20-01-2015 2:12pm

Username John wrote: »

I think it was 08 or maybe start 09 that the Young Farmers installation Aid stopped?

I'm not sure either,just curious to see are there any people on boards in the same boat as me

fulljonny · 20-01-2015 2:17pm

I'm 31 and started in 2011.
Seems very unfair on those who miss out all together especialy when the government are supposed to be encouraging young farmers. You would imagine the money would be there to accommodate those who are caught in between.

agriman27 · 20-01-2015 2:30pm

fulljonny wrote: »

I'm 31 and started in 2011.
Seems very unfair on those who miss out all together especialy when the government are supposed to be encouraging young farmers. You would imagine the money would be there to accommodate those who are caught in between.

The department was putting a case forward, didn't hear much about it lately. Even for you though its not fair that you'll only get one or two years top up. It's not like the whole farming scene was booming in them years and we are rollin in money:pac:

fulljonny · 20-01-2015 2:40pm

Completely agree.
Besides in general any bit of extra money a young farmer were to get would go back into the farm and the local economy.
Makes sense to everyone involved.

Dunedin · 20-01-2015 2:54pm

Username John wrote: »

I think it was 08 or maybe start 09 that the Young Farmers installation Aid stopped?

it was in the budget of 08 I think that it went.

I literally had the forms filled out, ticking all the boxes and then - bang. Sent it off anyway as it said at the time that it was temporarily suspended.

missed out on 15k just like yourself.

:(:(

AP2014 · 20-01-2015 2:57pm

Dunedin wrote: »

it was in the budget of 08 I think that it went.

I literally had the forms filled out, ticking all the boxes and then - bang. Sent it off anyway as it said at the time that it was temporarily suspended.

missed out on 15k just like yourself. :(:(

15k? Jesus was that over many years or what had you to do for it?

mahoney_j · 20-01-2015 3:04pm

Missed out on 15 k InstallAtion aid and dad missed early retirement .that 15 k would of been some start to me as in my head I had spent it on yard improevements,cubicles and slurry storage.and my dad would of been sorted financially.missing out on both since has cost me over 110 k euro since.dont begrudge the parents one cent I'm giving them but when I think what that money could of done for me since it makes me angry at the way both schemes were pulled so quick.i was on honeymoon when announcements were made and had all forms more or less ready to submit

agriman27 · 20-01-2015 3:08pm

fulljonny wrote: »

Completely agree.
Besides in general any bit of extra money a young farmer were to get would go back into the farm and the local economy.
Makes sense to everyone involved.

That's the truth, I would love to fence the whole farm and do some badly needed land drainage, but it difficult to budget for land work because it always gets into big money quickly even on a smallish job and not much return from it really just upkeep

Dunedin · 20-01-2015 3:17pm

AP2014 wrote: »

15k? Jesus was that over many years or what had you to do for it?

15k in one lump with no stipulation of how you spent it - you could use it for a holiday if you wished.

as far as I remember, you had to have the green cert, have the herd number and place in your name (signed over) and be under 35 I think. maybe there was more but that's all I remember.

Twas a hard blow I tell ya at the time.

AP2014 · 20-01-2015 3:53pm

Dunedin wrote: »

15k in one lump with no stipulation of how you spent it - you could use it for a holiday if you wished.

as far as I remember, you had to have the green cert, have the herd number and place in your name (signed over) and be under 35 I think. maybe there was more but that's all I remember.

Twas a hard blow I tell ya at the time.

Jesus sounds like a knockout blow alright!

agriman27 · 20-01-2015 4:15pm

Dunedin wrote: »

it was in the budget of 08 I think that it went.

I literally had the forms filled out, ticking all the boxes and then - bang. Sent it off anyway as it said at the time that it was temporarily suspended.

missed out on 15k just like yourself. :(:(

Are you missing out on the top-up altogether or will you get a year or two

ellewood · 20-01-2015 4:55pm

Dunedin wrote: »

it was in the budget of 08 I think that it went.

I literally had the forms filled out, ticking all the boxes and then - bang. Sent it off anyway as it said at the time that it was temporarily suspended.

missed out on 15k just like yourself. :(:(

Same as that here as well.
Its not looking goos now either was on to IFA bout it few weeks ago - havent hrre anything back yet.

solerina · 20-01-2015 5:00pm

The entire system is flawed, we have old lads around us who had large farms/flocks back in the reference years and now are barely ticking over (getting the pension) who are pulling in huge payments. Mean while young lads needing to get started are getting screwed, even those who are eligible are getting max 3,400 per year apparently (better than nothing but a lot less than advertised)

bogman_bass · 20-01-2015 5:05pm

Macra have been fighting this point since it happened. Probably the best we're going to get at this stage is a "Old young farmer" category for the National Reserve

agriman27 · 20-01-2015 6:23pm

Minister addresses ‘old’ young farmer issues in Dail committee
http://www.agriland.ie/news/minister-addresses-old-young-farmer-issues-dail-committee/. This is a complete coincidence today, but I'm afraid it doesn't look good lads!

sh1tstirrer · 20-01-2015 7:07pm

solerina wrote: »

The entire system is flawed, we have old lads around us who had large farms/flocks back in the reference years and now are barely ticking over (getting the pension) who are pulling in huge payments. Mean while young lads needing to get started are getting screwed, even those who are eligible are getting max 3,400 per year apparently (better than nothing but a lot less than advertised)

Life is tough back in the 80's many young farmers were stuck with small milk quotas and spent years buying and leasing milk quota at a huge cost. Some of them could be the old lads you talk of.

grazeaway · 20-01-2015 7:20pm

Started in 07 so was just in before the IA finished but have never been able to get anything for the SFP national reserve so not sure if I can get any time round either.

The IA was a godsend for me as I needed to do a significant amount of building upgrades at the time.

grazeaway · 20-01-2015 7:21pm

sh1tstirrer wrote: »

Life is tough back in the 80's many young farmers were stuck with small milk quotas and spent years buying and leasing milk quota at a huge cost. Some of them could be the old lads you talk of.

My folks fell into that trap in the 80's

Farrell · 20-01-2015 7:45pm

Started fresh in 09 & got a loan from AIB For setup (stock etc). Was worth the venture, nice to be your own person. The Installation would of definitely given us a good start, but like everyone else we got on with it

amacca · 20-01-2015 8:45pm

Yep…I too am an old young farmer….I may not even get into the system this time around after being screwed last time out.

Sunset V · 20-01-2015 9:10pm

There's a meeting in Athlone on evening of the 6th of February on the whole old young farmer thing, I think.

solerina · 20-01-2015 9:35pm

sh1tstirrer wrote: »

Life is tough back in the 80's many young farmers were stuck with small milk quotas and spent years buying and leasing milk quota at a huge cost. Some of them could be the old lads you talk of.

They are not...the lads I am talking about are not dairy farmers, sheep and sucklers who had big numbers back in the ref years and now have practically nothing, just a few 'hobby' animals, but are still getting huge payments. If these lads were removed from the system (as they are not really farming) there would be more money available to support young farmers who are trying to get up and running !!

ihatewinter · 20-01-2015 9:49pm

^^^^^^^^^^^^
And spend most of the day driving around looking 'busy and killing themselves'

Few around here where I live, pity there's no measure in place to put them into retirement.

Username John · 20-01-2015 10:00pm

solerina wrote: »

They are not...the lads I am talking about are not dairy farmers, sheep and sucklers who had big numbers back in the ref years and now have practically nothing, just a few 'hobby' animals, but are still getting huge payments. If these lads were removed from the system (as they are not really farming) there would be more money available to support young farmers who are trying to get up and running !!

I cant agree with this. We know that we cant return to a headage / production based system.

I do think young farmers should be supported, but I don't think that should used as a justification for taking SFP off some people who you think shouldn't have it.
There should be proper funding allocated to it, as there was before...

And, I will say I got the Installation Aid when twas there, and I started farming in April 2008.

And the mistake I made was using it on the farm - the smart thing to do would have been to buy SFP entitlements (as the ones that were on the farm were very low value) But sure we live and learn...

ihatewinter · 20-01-2015 10:38pm

I know it's irrelevant but if farmers got the Installation Aid back then, did they get entitlements from some scheme like the National Reserve.

Or was the Installation Aid, the other thing they got.

Username John · 20-01-2015 10:43pm

ihatewinter wrote: »

I know it's irrelevant but if farmers got the Installation Aid back then, did they get entitlements from some scheme like the National Reserve.

Or was the Installation Aid, the other thing they get.

Hi IhateWinter,

The installation aid was seperate to the national reserve. You applied for both seperate.
I can't remember the exact rules, I think they didn't have exactly the same rules though.

stretch film · 20-01-2015 11:02pm

Dunedin wrote: »

it was in the budget of 08 I think that it went.

I literally had the forms filled out, ticking all the boxes and then - bang. Sent it off anyway as it said at the time that it was temporarily suspended.

missed out on 15k just like yourself. :(:(

yeah it closed in late 08, thankfully I snuck in before closing .it was closed for a good while during naughties iirc and a lot of good younger guys lost out when that trance I got was re-opened due to being progressive and getting on with farm transfers or setting up with their own herd no etc.

an earlier version of the "old" young farmer , punished for having a bit of go in them. timing is everything:(:(

Dunedin wrote: »

15k in one lump with no stipulation of how you spent it - you could use it for a holiday if you wished.

as far as I remember, you had to have the green cert, have the herd number and place in your name (signed over) and be under 35 I think. maybe there was more but that's all I remember.

Twas a hard blow I tell ya at the time.

not true about no stipulation re spending .
had to complete 3 aspects of farm development or farmer training.

I had buildings done under FWMS which suited , quota purchased and a health and safety course . in fairness the money would have been found for first two anyway but a tax free lump sum like it was a huge help no doubt

was only asked during summer 14 to prove these had been completed. someone must have dusted off an old folder somewhere:)

Username John · 20-01-2015 11:06pm

stretch film wrote: »

was only asked during summer 14 to prove these had been completed. someone must have dusted off an old folder somewhere:)

Same here, had to send off forms to prove I had done what I said I would. No harm though to follow up on these things.

stretch film · 20-01-2015 11:11pm

Username John wrote: »

Same here, had to send off forms to prove I had done what I said I would. No harm though to follow up on these things.

I thought for a long time that it had fallen through the cracks.
considering it was an eu financed scheme the least that could be expected is that the dept would be competent enough to administer it.

wool521 · 20-01-2015 11:38pm

Im 31,never held entitlements and am doing green cert at the minute.I got herd no in 2011 and just reared a few calves for a couple of years as land was leased until this year.I bought 40 suckler cows this year.I can't apply to national reserve because I started before 2013:-(

Timmaay · 20-01-2015 11:59pm

Missed out on the installation aid by a few months here also. Certainly would have helped me the 1st few yrs at the wheel, when the farm was making a loss and stock needed to be bought etc. But back then utterly everything in the economy was going to the wall, I remember just being thankful they didn't hit the capital gains /stamp duty reductions, which would have made farming for me totally unrivalled.

Bitten & Hisses · 21-01-2015 8:36am

solerina wrote: »

The entire system is flawed, we have old lads around us who had large farms/flocks back in the reference years and now are barely ticking over (getting the pension) who are pulling in huge payments. Mean while young lads needing to get started are getting screwed, even those who are eligible are getting max 3,400 per year apparently (better than nothing but a lot less than advertised)

Tut tut, didn't you listen to the IFA over the last few years? These guys you mention above are the "productive" farmers in their book :rolleyes:

DieselPowered · 22-01-2015 3:52am

Applications for the National Reserve will be taken late Feb/early Mar for 2015.
Is anyone applying and what is required?

Limofarmer · 22-01-2015 9:01am

Same boat here . Took over farm 2011 . No IA or early retirement . Was aproaching 35 at the time and had green cert done . Got stamp duty relief on the transfer. Will only get 1 year top up now. Better than nothing but would have been nice to see all the farmers that fell into the "old young farmer" catergory looked after .

22-01-2015 9:10am

stretch film wrote: »

an earlier version of the "old" young farmer , punished for having a bit of go in them. timing is everything

How is not being given a handout punishment?

amacca · 22-01-2015 12:42pm

Deleted User wrote: »

How is not being given a handout punishment?

Because others got it that were no more deserving or possibly even less so?

If a cake is put on the table and little Johnny gets none simply because he's 12 but 6 year old Ruari gets a slice cos he's just come into the room and so does 15 year old Tom because he's already been getting a slice all along then Johhny might feel he was being punished even though he's no worse of than he was before.

Now scale that up to those around you being much more competitive in their business because they are getting the handout and this is more or less due to timing….consider what your feelings would be then.

ps: Johhny was mostly a good boy all along and tried his best to play by the rules but that god awful smug bolox Tom was simply lucky to get into the whole cake giving thing long ago and now has an off farm income way above the threshold for someone like Johhny to qualify for a much much smaller slice of the cake than Tom --- and don't even get me started on Ruari he just got handed cake and he doesn't even know what a cake is!

I just hope Johnny doesn't end up having to pay for their diabetes treatments to add insult to injury.

DieselPowered · 22-01-2015 1:21pm

amacca wrote: »

Tom was simply lucky to get into the whole cake giving thing long ago and now has an off farm income way above the threshold for someone like Johhny to qualify for a much much smaller slice of the cake than Tom

What is the off farm income thresholds? link?

thanks

solerina · 22-01-2015 3:25pm

Username John wrote: »

I cant agree with this. We know that we cant return to a headage / production based system.

I do think young farmers should be supported, but I don't think that should used as a justification for taking SFP off some people who you think shouldn't have it.
There should be proper funding allocated to it, as there was before...

And, I will say I got the Installation Aid when twas there, and I started farming in April 2008.

And the mistake I made was using it on the farm - the smart thing to do would have been to buy SFP entitlements (as the ones that were on the farm were very low value) But sure we live and learn...

As far as I know the SFP is to support production, these farmers produce nothing therefore they shouldn't be supported !!! This will leave more money to support people who are actually farming now...not 20 years ago !!

Username John · 22-01-2015 5:27pm

solerina wrote: »

As far as I know the SFP is to support production, these farmers produce nothing therefore they shouldn't be supported !!! This will leave more money to support people who are actually farming now...not 20 years ago !!

As I understand it, the link to production was broken when the SFP was introduced (it was linked to production when it was paid as headage)

But it is a good question - what is the SFP? Is it to support production, or to support farmers? Given there is no link to production, it would seem it is to support farmers, regardless of what they are doing....

Is it 2016 there will be no requirement to have physical hectares to buy entitlements?
So it wont just be farmers that will own them, so I think we will be moving even further away from a position of "leaving more money to support people who are actually farming"

Dunedin · 22-01-2015 11:35pm

stretch film wrote: »

not true about no stipulation re spending .
had to complete 3 aspects of farm development or farmer training.

my planner was off the radar a little so as they were his exact words - you can spend it on a holiday.

I cannot remember what was on the form that I filled out but needless to say when the scheme closed, so did my intentions at that rate:D:D

but sur' I got on without it.

whitetail · 22-01-2015 11:55pm

Started farming in 08 missed out on all grants etc have Green cert done and still under 35 and looks like i am going to miss out again! Very Small amount of Farmers in this position cant understand why it couldn't be sorted beforehand, hopefully Meeting in athlone on the 6th of february will help

rangler1 · 23-01-2015 9:17am

whitetail wrote: »

Started farming in 08 missed out on all grants etc have Green cert done and still under 35 and looks like i am going to miss out again! Very Small amount of Farmers in this position cant understand why it couldn't be sorted beforehand, hopefully Meeting in athlone on the 6th of february will help

For some reason the department won't roll back, I doubt if another new lobby group will move them

saranac1 · 23-01-2015 9:28am

Would talk of Scottish derogation help?

LivInt20 · 23-01-2015 2:01pm

wool521 wrote: »

Im 31,never held entitlements and am doing green cert at the minute.I got herd no in 2011 and just reared a few calves for a couple of years as land was leased until this year.I bought 40 suckler cows this year.I can't apply to national reserve because I started before 2013:-(

Not true.

You can apply to National Reserve if you have low entitlements.

Young Farmers scheme is for five years for start date of farming which would be 2011.

LivInt20 · 23-01-2015 2:02pm

DieselPowered wrote: »

What is the off farm income thresholds? link?

thanks

€40,000

All info on department agriculture website

Sunset V · 07-02-2015 12:54am

Anyone go to the meeting in Athlone tonight? I'm just home.

Big crowd, plenty of passion but no answers still. "Ming" and his Fitzmaurice lad spoke well and they promised us all a trip to Brussels to get our voices heard but no answers. I'm holding out no hope.

ellewood · 07-02-2015 1:07am

Yea ming was on fire alright

Fair play to yer man for orgaising twould have been embarrasing if small no. showed but it was packed

Id be of same view thothey might get something small but that it

I think Ill hold off a bit longer booking shuttering man for new tank on thw strength of it anyways:-)

Englebert Humperdink · 07-02-2015 1:12pm

I'm in the same boat myself. Started farming in 2011. Just missed out on installation aid as hadn't finished green cert at the time. I'm only entitled to one year of the five announced in the grant. It's a ridiculous situation that my entitlements are based on what my father was farming in the first reference years! He wasn't well at the time and was limited in what he could do. As far as I can see if your a small farmer the IFA don't give a fiddlers about you. They were quick enough to take money off me when I sell at the mart until I stopped them!

wool521 · 07-02-2015 5:34pm

LivInt20 wrote: »

Not true.

You can apply to National Reserve if you have low entitlements.

Young Farmers scheme is for five years for start date of farming which would be 2011.

I don't have any entitlements

Old Young Farmers

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