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12-11-2018, 21:01   #31
AndrewJRenko
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Originally Posted by cletus View Post
There are good and bad drivers, just like there are good and bad cyclists, but you can't discount bad behaviour on a bike by saying "but they're not real cyclists"
I agree.



The best way to differentiate the bad cyclists from the bad drivers is to highlight that the bad drivers kill 3 or 4 people each week, while the bad cyclists don't.
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12-11-2018, 21:03   #32
Wishbone Ash
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.., but you can't discount bad behaviour on a bike by saying "but they're not real cyclists"
But what's the point 'preaching to the converted' here?
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12-11-2018, 21:07   #33
at1withmyself
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Cycling forum = fix cycling forums

Motoring forums = fix motoring forums

I can see the difficulty here alright, tis very confusing


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Originally Posted by AndrewJRenko View Post
I'm a motorist, like most cyclists. So I can talk about the dangers of motoring on any thread, subject to usual moderation rules. The more interesting question is why so many people are so dedicated to 'fixing' cyclists and cycling, but they seem to run out of ideas before they start when it comes to fixing the motorists who kill 3 or 4 people each week.


It's like a doctor finding a patient bleeding out due to an amputation, and giving them a sticking plaster.
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12-11-2018, 21:08   #34
cletus
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wishbone Ash View Post
But what's the point 'preaching to the converted' here?
Sorry, I don't understand what you mean
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12-11-2018, 21:11   #35
ewc78
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Originally Posted by at1withmyself View Post
But this is the cycling forum, not the motoring forum. Let the motorist have there own debate there.

Cycling without lights is against the law and just because people break debateably worse laws that is not a good argument.

As per other comments even 1 death is too much.

[B]Why not have a discussion without bringing cars into it?[\b]
That particular poster (andrewjrenko)is incapable of doing that
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12-11-2018, 21:12   #36
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Unfortunately there are a few cases who persist in chancing their arm after dark - no reflective gear or lighting rendering them almost invisible to the motorist. The rest of us then suffer cheap labelling i.e. "pesky cyclists". The Gardaí haven't the easiest job on their hands enforcing the law, but something has to give.
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12-11-2018, 21:35   #37
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So would you disqualify the use of one statistic in favour of another that apparently doesn't exist?

It's not all about deaths certainly, but it's all we have at present to indicate patterns and trends, unless you care to produce some more detailed data?
I never disqualify any stat. Just asked simple question.
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12-11-2018, 21:38   #38
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The question isn't whether the point is valid.

The question is, of all the issues on the road that need action, where abouts on the priority list of all valid issues is this one?

I don't think it is in the top 20. I'm not sure it is in the top 50.

I often wonder why the creativity and motivation of many motorists in coming up with ideas to 'fix' cycling and cyclists is not applied to fixing the real danger on the roads - the motorists who kill three or four people each week and maim many more.
But you are forgetting the bigger problem. If we allow one group away with something, all the other groups will behave the same way. Thats human behaviour.

So we need to treat all the same which in turn will make the roads safer for all and save lives.
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12-11-2018, 21:50   #39
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The problem is ENFORCEMENT or should I say lack of enforcement. People don’t use lights because the RSA give out free “immunity”vests!

We have cycle lanes on the roads, cycle paths on the pavements which assume cyclists act like pedestrians. We have motorists who see any cyclists as a tax evading freeloader who can’t afford a car, so shouldn’t be on the road!

In short no wonder people are confused!
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12-11-2018, 21:52   #40
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It's the time of year. About a month from now they'll all have bought new lights etc
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12-11-2018, 21:59   #41
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Originally Posted by AndrewJRenko View Post
The best way to differentiate the bad cyclists from the bad drivers is to highlight that the bad drivers kill 3 or 4 people each week, while the bad cyclists don't.
That's a lame enough argument though in fairness too. I mean, if I am cycling home from work and am lit up properly, get hit by a car through no fault of my own, that's the car's fault.
Conversely, if I have no lights on and a black jacket and a car driver knocks me off and kills me, do you think the vast majority of car drivers would not be completely traumatised by that, regardless of right/wrong?
The old "oh they are much worse because they can kill more people" is a lame argument.
It is up to everybody to behave on the roads.
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12-11-2018, 22:30   #42
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I think the Boards needs a 'The Visible Invisible Ninja Cyclist' super thread at this stage.
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12-11-2018, 22:31   #43
07Lapierre
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I hope their descent lights!

https://www.facebook.com/186031000051/posts/10161042261685052/
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12-11-2018, 22:42   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by average_runner View Post
If we allow one group away with something, all the other groups will behave the same way. Thats human behaviour.
.
no we/they do not!!!! FFS pedestrians get away with breaking red lights all the time, when is the last time you heard of one been prosecuted for jaywalking!! Do articulated truck drivers "behave the same way" as them!~ bizarre BS nonsense. What sort of moronic mind thinks people will behave the same walking/jogging/running/bicycle/moped/bus


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Originally Posted by average_runner View Post
So we need to treat all the same which in turn will make the roads safer for all and save lives.
the gardai thankfully quite obviously disagree with you, thanks be to christ. Ludicrously ignorant comments if you actually bothered your hole to actually think about it. Quite worrying stuff.
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12-11-2018, 22:52   #45
AndrewJRenko
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Quote:
Originally Posted by at1withmyself View Post
Cycling forum = fix cycling forums

Motoring forums = fix motoring forums

I can see the difficulty here alright, tis very confusing

The difficulty is that you've just made that up. It's not part of the forum rules for either forum.


Certainly, the cycling forum has frequent discussions about keeping cyclists safe. By and large, this involves getting motorists to comply with the law.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Berties_Horse View Post
Unfortunately there are a few cases who persist in chancing their arm after dark - no reflective gear or lighting rendering them almost invisible to the motorist. The rest of us then suffer cheap labelling i.e. "pesky cyclists". The Gardaí haven't the easiest job on their hands enforcing the law, but something has to give.

The best way to avoid the rest of us suffering is to point out how ridiculous any kind of collective responsibility is.


Do the rest of motorists suffer 'pesky drivers' labelling because of the few idiots driving round with no back lights because they don't know how their DRLs work?

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Originally Posted by average_runner View Post
But you are forgetting the bigger problem. If we allow one group away with something, all the other groups will behave the same way. Thats human behaviour.
Great, so let's stop motorists from getting away with routinely breaking speed limits and red lights, and then cyclists will certainly follow. The bigger problem is the motorists that kill and maim.


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Originally Posted by average_runner View Post
So we need to treat all the same which in turn will make the roads safer for all and save lives.
I don't think that's how policing works.

Quote:
Originally Posted by incentsitive View Post
That's a lame enough argument though in fairness too. I mean, if I am cycling home from work and am lit up properly, get hit by a car through no fault of my own, that's the car's fault.
Conversely, if I have no lights on and a black jacket and a car driver knocks me off and kills me, do you think the vast majority of car drivers would not be completely traumatised by that, regardless of right/wrong?
The old "oh they are much worse because they can kill more people" is a lame argument.
It is up to everybody to behave on the roads.
If I'm a pedestrian with no lights and a black jacket crossing the road and a car driver knocks me off, who are we going to blame?
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