Hybrid Swing and Sliding gate system

...Ghost... · 08-10-2020 11:05am #1

I am to design and build a hybrid gate system. This is the best design choice to satisfy the requirements of the property and to allow pedestrian access which is accommodated into the design via the swing gate.

I am hoping to order the motors and related components in the coming days and have made contact with a supplier in China via Ali Express.

I was hoping someone here with experience might shed some light. Keeping the costs low is important and I have time to kill on the project.

There are 2 kits I am looking at.
1. A swing gate kit with one linear actuator. It comes with a control box, remote control fobs and brackets.
2. A sliding gate kit. Control box built into it of course. key fobs. fixing kit and the gear guide rails.

I asked the seller the following:

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/33011723420.html (single leaf door arm) and
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32832500804.html (sliding gate opener).
I am installing a hybrid gate system. One swing gate and one sliding gate will be installed. I would like to discuss the basic kits you have advertised, but I will want to include some extra items, such as sensors, RFID reader and other items. I have a few questions for you before moving forward.
1# The control box you sell with the actuator kit. Will this also work with the sliding gate motor? I would like to control both motors with one control box.
2# Can I use a single remote control fob to control both motors? I do not want to use two fobs to control the two motors. I would like to program one fob to control both motors. But I would like to have a total of 4 remote control fobs.
3# Can I choose to add, or remove items from your kits? For example, I like “kit F” for the sliding gate motor, but I do not want a flashing light.
4# The price of delivery is very high for these items. If I decided to purchase Kit 1 (Swing leaf door arm) and Kit F (800kg slide gate opener). What is the full delivery price?
5# What payment methods do you accept?

The response was:

1Swing doors and sliding doors are separate motors, they cannot use the same control box
2The two remote controls are different and cannot be used at the same time
3You can add the products you need, delete the ones you don’t need

I've ordered from Alibaba a couple of times and the sellers were....more engaged. I was surprised at the brief answers and missing answers, so I will likely find another seller.

Does anyone have any recommendation, or general input? I am planning to use this system with Amazons Alexa perhaps using arduino, but I want to focus on the basics first.

kub · 08-10-2020 4:47pm

My recommendation is to give that cheap equipment a very wide berth.

Start off with a proper Gate system with proper EU accreditation, that complies with all EU standards and most especially the safety stuff.

If someone gets hurt by your gates it is you that will face the music.

...Ghost... · 11-10-2020 5:12pm

kub wrote: »

My recommendation is to give that cheap equipment a very wide berth.

Start off with a proper Gate system with proper EU accreditation, that complies with all EU standards and most especially the safety stuff.

If someone gets hurt by your gates it is you that will face the music.

In fairness, someone is more likely to get hurt with no gates at all by simply entering the garden with open access.

The expensive equipment I looked at was made in China too, so I'm happy enough to order from China and check out the quality for myself rather than pay 10 times the price for someone else to put a logo on it.

kub · 11-10-2020 8:09pm

...Ghost... wrote: »

In fairness, someone is more likely to get hurt with no gates at all by simply entering the garden with open access.

The expensive equipment I looked at was made in China too, so I'm happy enough to order from China and check out the quality for myself rather than pay 10 times the price for someone else to put a logo on it.

Well if budget is the most important thing to you, I suppose that is why the likes of The Health and Safety authority have to release stuff like this :

https://www.hsa.ie/eng/Publications_and_Forms/Publications/Machinery_and_Work_Equipment/Guidelines_on_the_Safety_of_Powered_Gates.html

I am not the one who thinks up of safety standards but I have seen and heard of the damage that gate systems that are not properly specified and fitted cause.

All i can do is wish you all the best.

bobbyy gee · 11-10-2020 8:15pm

You are better having separate gate for pedestrians it's safer

11-10-2020 8:18pm

Can you not set one side of the gates to open half way for pedestrian access?
I know o can set my slider gate up with a second code that opens 1/4 way .

Gooey Looey · 11-10-2020 8:33pm

Don't buy Chinese crap. Get a proper installer to install something compliant and safe using Came or Faac. A motorised gate is a dangerous machine, it should be able to operate safely without risk to anyone especially young children

...Ghost... · 11-10-2020 9:21pm

bobbyy gee wrote: »

You are better having separate gate for pedestrians it's safer

This is part of the plan actually.

BrownFinger wrote: »

Can you not set one side of the gates to open half way for pedestrian access?
I know o can set my slider gate up with a second code that opens 1/4 way .

One gate will be a sliding gate and will span less than half the opening. The other gate will be a bifold design split into panels 1 meter wide each. The panel nearest the perpendicular wall will be operated by an actuator arm and the other panel will be hinged to this, but will be completely manual for pedestrian use.

Gooey Looey wrote: »

Don't buy Chinese crap. Get a proper installer to install something compliant and safe using Came or Faac. A motorised gate is a dangerous machine, it should be able to operate safely without risk to anyone especially young children

Having someone else do the work is not an option. I'd rather not share too much personal information on an online forum, but suffice to say that this is a final year engineering project and every safety precaution will be taken. The components will undergo rigorous testing prior to installation. The links posted in the OP are not the exact items I plan to buy, but I will be looking to find a reputable dealer on Alibaba as I have done before for other products. I just haven't purchased this type of product before from China and I am looking for guidance and opinions from those familiar in the area. I understand the safety concerns if sub-standard equipment was used, but I will be on top of these concerns myself.

Gooey Looey · 11-10-2020 9:33pm

...Ghost... wrote: »

Having someone else do the work is not an option. I'd rather not share too much personal information on an online forum, but suffice to say that this is a final year engineering project and every safety precaution will be taken. The components will undergo rigorous testing prior to installation. The links posted in the OP are not the exact items I plan to buy, but I will be looking to find a reputable dealer on Alibaba as I have done before for other products. I just haven't purchased this type of product before from China and I am looking for guidance and opinions from those familiar in the area. I understand the safety concerns if sub-standard equipment was used, but I will be on top of these concerns myself.

To do this right you need to identify the crush zones and draw in points and use lasers/photocells and safety edges to protect these areas. Start by reading the HSA guidelines. How to you plan to force test the gate? To have a compliant gate you will need to force test the gate and record the results.

You can design and fabricate the gate alright but you really need to employ a competent installer to automate it to a proper standard ensuring it's safe and compliant. The first this to be looking for in a motor is an encoder, where it detects obstructions by a sudden rise in current and backs off instantly. No competent installer will use Chinese crap bought on AliExpress.

enricoh · 11-10-2020 9:33pm

Dunno if you are doing this on your own house or someone else's. If it's someone else's you're mad to do it. The buck stops with you and it's fairly complicated with a slider and a bi-fold.

At least as someone else said get a decent italian kit, can be got cheap enough from eBay uk etc.

...Ghost... · 11-10-2020 10:08pm

Gooey Looey wrote: »

To do this right you need to identify the crush zones and draw in points and use lasers/photocells and safety edges to protect these areas. Start by reading the HSA guidelines. How to you plan to force test the gate? To have a compliant gate you will need to force test the gate and record the results.

You can design and fabricate the gate alright but you really need to employ a competent installer to automate it to a proper standard ensuring it's safe and compliant. The first this to be looking for in a motor is an encoder, where it detects obstructions by a sudden rise in current and backs off instantly. No competent installer will use Chinese crap bought on AliExpress.

Good advice. I have looked at force testing and it's different for sliding gates and swing gates, so this will be a bit of a pain, but I will get my hands on a force tester and record the newton measurements. I plan to have photocells installed on both sides, so there will be at least 4 cells. The supervisor will be able to arrange for the final product to be tested and checked by an engineer and can probably do it himself.

enricoh wrote: »

Dunno if you are doing this on your own house or someone else's. If it's someone else's you're mad to do it. The buck stops with you and it's fairly complicated with a slider and a bi-fold.

At least as someone else said get a decent italian kit, can be got cheap enough from eBay uk etc.

It will be my own property. I've put a fair bit of consideration into it and I am aware of the challenges and risks in this type of project. I'm not a typical snot nosed student with no experience and have been involved in a number of building projects. Automated gates are just outside of my area of knowledge, but I am sure I can do a good job and I have until March to get it done.

Please feel free to link to kits you think are worth a look.

Gooey Looey · 11-10-2020 10:27pm

On a sliding gate you will need safety edges also, the one on the gate front edge (and possibly also back) of a moving gate will need a wireless transmitter and receiver. A sliding gate will have draw in points at the pillar/A frame it returns by/into, these will also need edges to protect draw in. Also on a sliding gate there are 10 force tests required at different measurements and heights front (and possibly back) of the sliding gate. That's 20 tests when you do both sides, the force of the gate must be adjusted so that they all pass.

https://images.app.goo.gl/ajRmGatGxomNRDC57

Honestly, you need an installer, you are taking a huge risk getting all these things right. What is HSA guidelines in this country is actual regulation in the UK and we are going to follow, our guidelines are based on their regs

https://www.hse.gov.uk/work-equipment-machinery/faq-powered-gates.htm

...Ghost... · 11-10-2020 10:40pm

Gooey Looey wrote: »

On a sliding gate you will need safety edges also, the one on the gate front edge (and possibly also back) of a moving gate will need a wireless transmitter and receiver. A sliding gate will have draw in points at the pillar/A frame it returns by/into, these will also need edges to protect draw in. Also on a sliding gate there are 10 force tests required at different measurements and heights front (and possibly back) of the sliding gate. That's 20 tests when you do both sides, the force of the gate must be adjusted so that they all pass.

https://images.app.goo.gl/ajRmGatGxomNRDC57

Honestly, you need an installer, you are taking a huge risk getting all these things right. What is HSA guidelines in this country is actual regulation in the UK and we are going to follow

The HSA PDF you linked is one I have on file and is leading the design for me. I also have the crush bulletins issued by the UK HSE which republished on the HSA site.

The concern is appreciated, but supervisors are appointed to certain projects for good reason and each project idea has to be approved before pushing ahead. Safety and regulations are part of every project with the exception of research only projects.

Gooey Looey · 11-10-2020 10:42pm

...Ghost... wrote: »

The HSA PDF you linked is one I have on file and is leading the design for me. I also have the crush bulletins issued by the UK HSE which republished on the HSA site.

The concern is appreciated, but supervisors are appointed to certain projects for good reason and each project idea has to be approved before pushing ahead. Safety and regulations are part of every project with the exception of research only projects.

I ninja edited the UK regs while you were posting

...Ghost... · 11-10-2020 10:45pm

Gooey Looey wrote: »

I ninja edited the UK regs while you were posting

I am using both the HSE and HSA for this. Although the HSA is pretty much copy and paste on this form what I have seen. Most of the regs don't apply to domestic installations, but I will treat mine like a commercial one for the most part.

Gooey Looey · 11-10-2020 10:52pm

...Ghost... wrote: »

I am using both the HSE and HSA for this. Although the HSA is pretty much copy and paste on this form what I have seen. Most of the regs don't apply to domestic installations, but I will treat mine like a commercial one for the most part.

But they do apply on domestic gates in the UK and will here when these guidelines become our regs. When that happens any future changes to your gate, replacement of a motor etc would mean your gate would need to be made compliant, made manual hold to run or disabled as being unsafe!

...Ghost... · 11-10-2020 10:59pm

Gooey Looey wrote: »

But they do apply on domestic gates in the UK and will here when these guidelines become our regs. When that happens any future changes to your gate, replacement of a motor etc would mean your gate would need to be made compliant, made manual hold to run or disabled as being unsafe!

"While health and safety law does not apply to owners of powered gates on domestic (privately owned) premises, it is strongly recommended that they are checked regularly."

In any case, I will be treating it very much like a commercial install. This will all be managed. If you have any recommendations for components, that would be most helpful. I'm still looking around.

Gooey Looey · 11-10-2020 11:05pm

...Ghost... wrote: »

"While health and safety law does not apply to owners of powered gates on domestic (privately owned) premises, it is strongly recommended that they are checked regularly."

In any case, I will be treating it very much like a commercial install. This will all be managed. If you have any recommendations for components, that would be most helpful. I'm still looking around.

My advice is to go with something Italian, Came or Faac, not the crap you were looking at on AliExpress. You can buy the basic kits on eBay

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/283417890412
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/281897200930

Edit: these are older models without encoders. You may need to contact Came Ireland for the latest models, they may sell direct to you

...Ghost... · 11-10-2020 11:11pm

Gooey Looey wrote: »

My advice is to go with something Italian, Came or Faac, not the crap you were looking at on AliExpress. You can buy the basic kits on eBay

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/283417890412
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/281897200930

Edit: these are older models without encoders. You may need to contact Came Ireland for the latest models, they may sell direct to you

Those are way over specced, but I will check out the brands and see what else is available.

Hybrid Swing and Sliding gate system

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