Suicide

PTH2009 · 14-09-2017 10:23pm

freshpopcorn wrote: »

I find that there is a lot of pressure on people Today(I'm not saying our parents had it easy) however when my parents left school. Some did go off to college/unersity but others got jobs locally in factories/shops/offices/etc.
The main aim of school is third level which is not for everyone. It's almost like your not meant to be happy if you haven't gone to third level.
People ask a person just finished school. What are you up to? If the person replies I'm tipping around or doing this and that. Don't press them further. If the person replies oh I got a job locally. Former classmates often snigger and others basically say is that all. Basically saying your useless and unmotivated.

Different times and sadly in today's Ireland it's very hard to skip third level and find a decent job. Even the simplest of jobs would need third level education

Im from Waterford and back in the day there was many factories that took on people without proper education (early school leavers) ie Waterord Glass, the Foundry, etc. Both those factories have since closed down or are a shadow of them former selves. It's prob the same for many places in Ireland

Gael23 · 14-09-2017 10:29pm

Know of someone that done it recently. He had lots of issues but also an elderly mother in declining health who has had her fair share of misfortune in life. I can't help thinking how could he hurt her like that again.

freshpopcorn · 14-09-2017 10:35pm

PTH2009 wrote: »

Different times and sadly in today's Ireland it's very hard to skip third level and find a decent job. Even the simplest of jobs would need third level education

Im from Waterford and back in the day there was many factories that took on people without proper education (early school leavers) ie Waterord Glass, the Foundry, etc. Both those factories have since closed down or are a shadow of them former selves. It's prob the same for many places in Ireland

I'm from Cork and 25 and local factories have taken on people from my area who were out of school and had no real qualifications apart from maybe a cert from the community college for a course and it's the same with people who got jobs in local hotels/bars/shops. If you tell people your doing these jobs your basically looked down on and have no ambition.

pumpkin4life · 14-09-2017 10:41pm

Like a lot of things, it's a complicated, whirling mess of an issue that seems to be getting worse and worse as time goes on and touches nearly everyone, every lad and wan to some degree.

What I will say though is that the "toxic masculinity, men should talk more and that is the solution" line that is often pushed is a gross oversimplication of a multifaceted problem. It's bum basically. It's also a tumultuous, Black Lodge descending issue that needs to be looked at properly, if there's any sniff of getting a good handle on it.

One: How Irish Culture Works

I think one of the key characteristics of Irish people is that we are very communal, very tribal, and very homogeneous in our thinking. We are not particularly creative; a very go along to get along group of lads in all fairness. We like big institutions telling us what to do and say; that classic Irish begrudgery stereotype that you see in movies: authors like James Joyce and Flann O Brian, all of that craic is very true and very strong. We don't like people who stand out. Nail. Stand Up. Knockdown.

If you are any bit different in Ireland, you are going to struggle. If you deviate (and I say this as one of these people) from the GAA loving, Love Island watching, Father Ted quoting, Conor MacGregor psuedo MMA punditing, Saturday night binge drinking, left wing but not too left leaning Sunday Independent reading, Eamonn Dunphy Wes Hooli lovin, kind of average, you're going to find it harder to fit in. Lads be going "wha?" and it only gets trickier from there like.

I've seen it before whereby people from their local community are different in some way growing up, and these lads will be stuck perpetually outsiders from a community of Galway/Cork/Dublin etc lads who all grew up with each other and go to the same universities and ride the same wans and think this lad is a bit different so don't go there. That's fine but you can't really reinvent yourself in Ireland to the degree you could in another country.

Having rigid communities has advantages in that we seem to suffer less of the crap some of the West does in terms of nihilism and atomization, and in all honesty, we're probably happier as a collective than say, America, but it leads individuals more prone to messy behaviour, that leads to suicide.

Keep an ear to the ground everyone.

PTH2009 · 14-09-2017 10:45pm

freshpopcorn wrote: »

I'm from Cork and 25 and local factories have taken on people from my area who were out of school and had no real qualifications apart from maybe a cert from the community college for a course and it's the same with people who got jobs in local hotels/bars/shops. If you tell people your doing these jobs your basically looked down on and have no ambition.

Very true but What about all the immigrants who travel over here have family's depending on them etc who work low level and are quite happy too

I'd take a full time factory job if I was offered it, I'd love to have the intelligence to train to be a doctor, teacher, bank manager etc but sadly that kind of profession is above my skills. **** Mary and the likes down the road gloating about her Grandson going off too Trinity too study medicine (don't get me wrong people like that are proud and have every right to be) but as I said some people have brains too burn others struggle academically

tomwaterford · 14-09-2017 10:47pm

freshpopcorn wrote: »

I'm from Cork and 25 and local factories have taken on people from my area who were out of school and had no real qualifications apart from maybe a cert from the community college for a course and it's the same with people who got jobs in local hotels/bars/shops. If you tell people your doing these jobs your basically looked down on and have no ambition.

Local factory in my area pays about 5 euro an hour more than what I get paid for a trade plus 7 years qualified experience

Lickin2me · 14-09-2017 10:59pm

There are many types of anti depressents. A good doctor or shrink will keep changing different medications and doses until find one that suits. In meantime they will keep in contact with patient. Will advise things to keep active and warn of dangers of alcohol etc. They are out there but very hard to find. But you cant give up. Sorry its selfish unless uve no family and nobody left to deal with ur death. Unless u commit to trying to get help no matter how many doors close. If then and only then u are still suffering and u cant take life anymore then il say go ahead. But after say 2 year commitment to trying to solve issue. Or if ur in pain physically and no cure. It drives me mad someone gets in crisis and goes straight for suicide. Thats been selfish and a wimp. Who knows whats there after death. Could be great could be hell. Could be nothing. Reason everyone doesnt go do it in crisis. Afraid whats behind other door. And knowing devasting effects will have on family. I remember a doctor saying many moons back when i was ill. That he has so many adult children come in years later and ask why did my mam/dad do it. There lost and broken adults now. Unless no other way. Then its selfish and i mean no other way. Not excuse o i lost my job, my wife/husband screwing around. Thats part life deal with it

14-09-2017 11:05pm

Lickin2me wrote: »

There are many types of anti depressents. A good doctor or shrink will keep changing different medications and doses until find one that suits. In meantime they will keep in contact with patient. Will advise things to keep active and warn of dangers of alcohol etc. They are out there but very hard to find. But you cant give up. Sorry its selfish unless uve no family and nobody left to deal with ur death. Unless u commit to trying to get help no matter how many doors close. If then and only then u are still suffering and u cant take life anymore then il say go ahead. But after say 2 year commitment to trying to solve issue. Or if ur in pain physically and no cure. It drives me mad someone gets in crisis and goes straight for suicide. Thats been selfish and a wimp. Who knows whats there after death. Could be great could be hell. Could be nothing. Reason everyone doesnt go do it in crisis. Afraid whats behind other door. And knowing devasting effects will have on family. I remember a doctor saying many moons back when i was ill. That he has so many adult children come in years later and ask why did my mam/dad do it. There lost and broken adults now. Unless no other way. Then its selfish and i mean no other way. Not excuse o i lost my job, my wife/husband screwing around. Thats part life deal with it

Well. At least you have compassion.

*rolleyes*

dense · 15-09-2017 12:25am

Lickin2me wrote: »

There are many types of anti depressents. A good doctor or shrink will keep changing different medications and doses until find one that suits. In meantime they will keep in contact with patient. Will advise things to keep active and warn of dangers of alcohol etc. They are out there but very hard to find. But you cant give up. Sorry its selfish unless uve no family and nobody left to deal with ur death. Unless u commit to trying to get help no matter how many doors close. If then and only then u are still suffering and u cant take life anymore then il say go ahead. But after say 2 year commitment to trying to solve issue. Or if ur in pain physically and no cure. It drives me mad someone gets in crisis and goes straight for suicide. Thats been selfish and a wimp. Who knows whats there after death. Could be great could be hell. Could be nothing. Reason everyone doesnt go do it in crisis. Afraid whats behind other door. And knowing devasting effects will have on family. I remember a doctor saying many moons back when i was ill. That he has so many adult children come in years later and ask why did my mam/dad do it. There lost and broken adults now. Unless no other way. Then its selfish and i mean no other way. Not excuse o i lost my job, my wife/husband screwing around. Thats part life deal with it

Lecturing might be counter productive. Some people are sensitive some will say F U. It's hard to know unless you've been there.

But the doctor should have told the kids that their father/mother didn't do it as some sort of punishment to the children, they did it because they couldn't cope. Cope with what, no one may know.

We seem to be caught up about how WE feel in the aftermath of suicide, as in we take it as the person having done something on us.
Think of how the person felt. Think of them, not us. It's not about us. Particularly when we don't even know the people.

But then if someone blows their head off in the kitchen, as opposed to in a field you'd wonder was there a message there.

Parents will feel mmensely guilty and lacking for not seeing something that could have helped them intervene. They need to know it's not their fault and be given some comfort from hoping their child is now at peace as opposed to being forced through something they couldn't face whether it was bullying, abuse or an inability to function in the role expected of them.

They'll question why their young adult couldn't talk to them.
Their child probably could have cared so much about them they didn't want to foist a problem that wasn't of the parent's making onto them one which they thought their parent or anyone esls couldn't solve.

That brings us to the subject of discussing suicide with our sons and daughters.
Do we not bring it up for fear of being the first person to plant any knowledge of suicide in their heads? Or do we and then if the child/young adult does, do we feel as if it's our fault. If they hadn't known...

We I suppose would try to talk about mental illness instead of using the word suicide.

But then what happens when a child comes home from school and asks what's suicide, what exactly do you say?

Do we say the victim was selfish, in order to try to prevent our children from thinking too much? Do we show sympathy?

We need to change our goals a little.
We pretend to be a caring society. We're not really.
We're all out for number 1. The biggest house, newest car. Still.

There's little true community spirit, what is there is often forced or focused around alcohol, men particularly rural men in my area are at a disadvantage because if two friends go for coffee the local smarts will have comments.

Mens sheds are seen not as anything normal but as some kind of refuge for nutters. As people get older, it is the women who mainly attend weekly active retirement clubs, for some reason old men don't seem to participate.

There's a requirement for men to be tough, successful whether in business, relationships, in fact whatever they try their hand at. Failure is laughed at.

There's heavy emphasis on sports, there's little else for young lads who are not sporty in rural areas (but with the advantage that drugs aren't available at every street corner nor is the sight of injecting a common occurrence. )

Stonedpilot · 15-09-2017 12:56am

cinnamony wrote: »

I'm educated to Masters level in Data Analytics,
Do exercise everyday both cardio and strength training, I also go for walks everyday. I travel when I can, have a ton of hobbies. Not many friends but close to the few I have. I even take Vitamin D supplements just in case...but still suffer from OCD.

And this exactly here is the stigma and the most harmful aspect of it is that people think that when they make these kinds of statements they are helping. Would a person who has cancer suddenly be cured because they got a degree? Or had a run on the treadmill? Or went to Paris for a weekend? No they wouldn't. We are finding more and more evidence that there are physical defects that lead to mental illness and vice versa...

There was a suicide cluster around my area last year, all them in education, 2k+ friends on facebook and certainly enough in real life that the masses at their funerals were absolutely packed, nice family holidays too. They still killed themselves because in the end it doesn't matter.

Most of the people I know who commited suicide didn't show any signs anything was wrong, it came as an absolute shock.

There was no talk about suicide, No sad faces, no 'I'm feeling unwell today', just a call that they were gone.

We really need to stop thinking everyone with a mental illness is walking around wearing it on their sleeves.

True. Alot who speak of their woes 24/7 and suicide dont do it its the people who keep it to themselves do it sadly.

Peace of mind is what matters in life. Funny thing is one of the most serene people I ever met is a guy who lost a €500,000 business to his alcoholism. He has nothing now but he did the 12 steps prays for 2 hours a day and is easily the happiest person I know. Met coke heads with top jobs and insane salaries in RTE and certain banks before and always struck me as being false and despondent.Money cany buy happiness.

Of this I am totally convinced. If people had God in their lifes and prayed to him (properly) their would be alot less suicides. No doubt about it IMO.

freshpopcorn · 15-09-2017 2:31am

Stonedpilot wrote: »

Of this I am totally convinced. If people had God in their lifes and prayed to him (properly) their would be alot less suicides. No doubt about it IMO.

One thing I also often wondered is I often feel people Today carry around a lot of guilty over things. They either can't forgive themselves or others hold grudges over small enough things. In previous generations men/women/teenagers all nearly went to confession to confess their sins I do believe this helped people to help forgive themselves instead of dwelling on issues.
I know this wouldn't be a popular opinion either.

buzzinfly83 · 15-09-2017 2:40am

Stonedpilot wrote: »

True. Alot who speak of their woes 24/7 and suicide dont do it its the people who keep it to themselves do it sadly.

Peace of mind is what matters in life. Funny thing is one of the most serene people I ever met is a guy who lost a €500,000 business to his alcoholism. He has nothing now but he did the 12 steps prays for 2 hours a day and is easily the happiest person I know. Met coke heads with top jobs and insane salaries in RTE and certain banks before and always struck me as being false and despondent.Money cany buy happiness.

Of this I am totally convinced. If people had God in their lifes and prayed to him (properly) their would be alot less suicides. No doubt about it IMO.

Religion or God has no bearing on whether a person commits suicide. I find that statement ridiculous. People that commit suicide usually have depression or some type of mental illness. Last time I checked God or praying is not a known cure for these illnesses. If it was everybody would just pray instead of going to doctors and taking medication. Very naive statement to make in my opinion.

newdriverlad · 15-09-2017 3:05am

buzzinfly83 wrote: »

Religion or God has no bearing on whether a person commits suicide. I find that statement ridiculous. People that commit suicide usually have depression or some type of mental illness. Last time I checked God or praying is not a known cure for these illnesses. If it was everybody would just pray instead of going to doctors and taking medication. Very naive statement to make in my opinion.

I have sometimes thought about ending it all but my faith has always helped me through it. Whilst in the church I never felt alone bullied or scared.
It has really helped me through dark periods of my life.

5rtytry56 · 15-09-2017 3:06am

There's heavy emphasis on sports, there's little else for young lads who are not sporty in rural areas (but with the advantage that drugs aren't available at every street corner nor is the sight of injecting a common occurrence. )

YES.
Every third ad on any Irish FM radio station.
50 percent of the ads on YouTube are sports related.
YouTubeLook at the ads on the entry to many petrol stations:
" We heard you played well today......"

buzzinfly83 · 15-09-2017 3:12am

newdriverlad wrote: »

I have sometimes thought about ending it all but my faith has always helped me through it. Whilst in the church I never felt alone bullied or scared.
It has really helped me through dark periods of 5my life.

Good for u but to suggest praying to a God that may or may not be real as a genuine way of reducing suicide rates is comical. If it works for u great but asking people who are not religious to use this as a method to prevent suicide is nonsense. Its like saying "I like music and it prevented me from commiting suicide so other people should do the same". Suggesting to a suicidal person that they should pray even if they are not religious will be of little help to them.

newdriverlad · 15-09-2017 3:22am

buzzinfly83 wrote: »

Good for u but to suggest praying to a God that may or may not be real as a genuine way of reducing suicide rates is comical. If it works for u great but asking people who are not religious to use this as a method to prevent suicide is nonsense. Its like saying "I like music and it prevented me from commiting suicide so other people should do the same". Suggesting to a suicidal person that they should pray even if they are not religious will be of little help to them.

There is no harm in giving it a go. When I was depressed I was told to go for walks, eat better, talk to family/friends, teachers, you name it and I gave it all a go, I even went to a guy to talk about my feelings.
My faith helped me when I was depressed in the past. I wouldn't have being religious in the past but I gave it a go and it helped. It was suggested to me and it helped a lot.

buzzinfly83 · 15-09-2017 3:26am

newdriverlad wrote: »

There is no harm in giving it a go. When I was depressed I was told to go for walks, eat better, talk to family/friends, teachers, you name it and I gave it all a go, I even went to a guy to talk about my feelings.
My faith helped me when I was depressed in the past. I wouldn't have being religious in the past but I gave it a go and it helped. It was suggested to me and it helped a lot.

Listen I'm a firm believer in whatever works for u then u should do it. The problem I have is that there are other known steps to take for suicidal people such as psychiatrists, hospital and medication. Saying that because praying worked for one person that it should be a standard approach for others is bad advice. There may be a lot of harm giving it a go if a person is on the brink of suicide and instead of getting immediate professional help someone suggests praying to them.

newdriverlad · 15-09-2017 3:34am

buzzinfly83 wrote: »

Listen I'm a firm believer in whatever works for u then u should do it. The problem I have is that there are other known steps to take for suicidal people such as psychiatrists, hospital and medication. Saying that because praying worked for one person that it should be a standard approach for others is bad advice. There may be a lot of harm giving it a go if a person is on the brink of suicide and instead of getting immediate professional help someone suggests praying to them.

I never said don't seek professional help. I gave it ago and it failed for me. So I found comfort in my faith. All I'm saying is people shouldn't be so quick to rule things out!

buzzinfly83 · 15-09-2017 3:37am

newdriverlad wrote: »

I never said don't seek professional help. I gave it ago and it failed for me. So I found comfort in my faith. All I'm saying is people shouldn't be so quick to rule things out!

Suicide is a very serious thing and if we are talking about it responsibly regards getting help then religion and praying should be way down the list of steps a person should take when seeking help.

newdriverlad · 15-09-2017 3:44am

buzzinfly83 wrote: »

Suicide is a very serious thing and if we are talking about it responsibly regards getting help then religion and praying should be way down the list of steps a person should take when seeking help.

I never said it should be at the top of the list tough. Did I?
I tried to get help from various channels (Doctors, therapists, etc)and nothing worked for me somebody said to me give your faith ago and it worked wonders. I'm not telling people who are depressed to run out to mass but just be open to it.

buzzinfly83 · 15-09-2017 3:48am

newdriverlad wrote: »

I never said it should be at the top of the list tough. Did I?
I tried to get help from various channels (Doctors, therapists, etc)and not worked for me somebody said to me give your faith ago and it worked wonders. I'm not telling people who are depressed to run out to mass but just be open to it.

The thing is many people are not one bit religious so it would be next to impossible for them in a suicidal state to be able to pray themselves better. I think it's great that it worked for u and you are very lucky to have found something that got you through it.

dense · 15-09-2017 6:46am

5rtytry56 wrote: »

YES.
Every third ad on any Irish FM radio station.
50 percent of the ads on YouTube are sports related.
YouTubeLook at the ads on the entry to many petrol stations:
" We heard you played well today......"

For the non sporty kids in school, wouldn't it be great if there was a school band as an alternative? A kids guitar costs the same as a pair of boots.

Sport plays a great role in filling a void but it's group dependent can be a bit tribal, music can be made long after physical skill declines and can pass many an adult hour. I wasn't sporty but was in the school band, I never stop wondering how the Christian Brother managed to coax music and good music out of us, and he was a good egg.

dense · 15-09-2017 6:55am

buzzinfly83 wrote: »

The thing is many people are not one bit religious so it would be next to impossible for them in a suicidal state to be able to pray themselves better. I think it's great that it worked for u and you are very lucky to have found something that got you through it.

Its when people are at the end of their tether that they often pray. It will be helpful for some not others. If I was to push it, I'd guess suicide would be more difficult to carry out for someone who "believes". The belief/faith might carry them through the bad times better. You use whatever you can.

gctest50 · 15-09-2017 6:56am

Mod- post redacted for dragging other threads in to this thread.

sashafierce · 15-09-2017 11:04am

This post has been deleted.

NeonCookies · 15-09-2017 11:28am

corner of hells wrote:

It's worth doing a suicide prevention course called ASIST , it's recognized by the HSE and the National Office for Suicide Prevention is involved.

It's free and open to everyone with it run over two days.Lots of professionals are trained in it .

It's quite raw and and there's a three hour preparatory course called safe talk you must do first.

It's well worth doing , lots of frontline people will have it too.

100% +1 this. I did it as part of my professional training almost two years ago. Every so often I pull out the card they give which summarises the core principles just to refresh myself in case I ever need to use it professionally or personally.

I remember our trainers telling us that a phenomenon they have noticed over their time running the training is that a surprising number of very recently trained people will contact them to tell them they had to use ASIST in the days / few weeks following the training.

The trainers put that down to either the training opening people's eyes to those around them - making them 'be on the look out', or a person considering suicide feeling they can disclose to this person for one reason or another.

One story they told was of a woman driving home from the first day of training and spotting someone standing at a bridge. Something didn't feel right so she stopped and went back. Turned out the person was considering jumping and she managed to get them to a safe place.

We all need to look after each other.

smurgen · 15-09-2017 11:35am

marvin80 wrote: »

Powerful message/song by the Rubberbandits:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f4WfDafHijY

It's funny cause they seem to resent straight white males.the type they're lamenting in the video.

pilly · 15-09-2017 11:35am

sashafierce wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

I gave it up 3 years ago for that very reason.

It's so fake it's unreal and yet if you're at a very very low point in life it can make things so much worse because people "appear" to be having a great time.

People say it's a great way to connect but to me it's nothing of the sort, there's no real connections there.

pilly · 15-09-2017 11:56am

dense wrote: »

I know of a couple of cases where people received terminal prognoses and decided they didn't want to or couldn't face it.

Should they be forced to go through what they don't want to? No.

I have personally already told my children if I'm ever diagnosed with terminal cancer I will not have any treatment that prolongs my life, full stop. I've seen too many people suffer through chemo etc which makes the last living days hell. The reason they do it? For others.

No-one should be made to suffer just to stay alive longer for others.

sashafierce · 15-09-2017 11:59am

This post has been deleted.

Suicide

Comments