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SLARS

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24

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    #32
    Nellieelephant
    Registered Users Posts: 46 ✭Nellieelephant


    amacca wrote: »
    What about schools that finish at different times different days?

    OH finishes some days at 4:25 and other days at 3:45...she was told by management start SLAR at 3:45 on the days school finishes at 3:45 as this is within school time......what are peoples feelings on this......just curious she wouldn't begrudge it but she is also reluctant to set a precedent/piss people off

    From the reading of this 3.45 is after school so NO should not be happening. Yes that would piss me off. I think most staff are having a union meeting to pre empt any issues. Ask the school steward to hold a meeting is the first port of call? No one needs to tackle this on there own. ASTI are clear on this. I feel people are lethargic to this - era it’s only a few hours. It’s a few hours on top of Croke Park, on top of S&S, on top of getting to grips with new curriculum. NO!


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    #33
    Mardy Bum
    Registered Users Posts: 3,674 ✭✭✭Mardy Bum


    Nellieelephant wrote: »
    amacca wrote: »
    What about schools that finish at different times different days?

    OH finishes some days at 4:25 and other days at 3:45...she was told by management start SLAR at 3:45 on the days school finishes at 3:45 as this is within school time......what are peoples feelings on this......just curious she wouldn't begrudge it but she is also reluctant to set a precedent/piss people off

    From the reading of this 3.45 is after school so NO should not be happening. Yes that would piss me off. I think most staff are having a union meeting to pre empt any issues. Ask the school steward to hold a meeting is the first port of call? No one needs to tackle this on there own. ASTI are clear on this. I feel people are lethargic to this - era it’s only a few hours. It’s a few hours on top of Croke Park, on top of S&S, on top of getting to grips with new curriculum. NO!

    I'm lost here. The ASTI have nothing to do with the SLAR procedures. Where does it say that they must happen during school? We get 40 minutes off every week for them. The ASTI crumbled on this and had nothing to do with the arrangements.


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    #34
    amacca
    Registered Users Posts: 6,786 ✭✭✭amacca


    Nellieelephant wrote: »
    From the reading of this 3.45 is after school so NO should not be happening. Yes that would piss me off. I think most staff are having a union meeting to pre empt any issues. Ask the school steward to hold a meeting is the first port of call? No one needs to tackle this on there own. ASTI are clear on this. I feel people are lethargic to this - era it’s only a few hours. It’s a few hours on top of Croke Park, on top of S&S, on top of getting to grips with new curriculum. NO!

    But if SS is not something that can be used to free up the relevant teachers at one time I suppose I can see managements point of view too......how the hell can you have a SLAR during school time when teachers just won't be off and if I'm interpreting it correctly they can't be covered under SS .. It just seems to be another very poorly thought out aspect of this shiny new JC ....I'm not sure she would get anywhere trying to organise a union meeting for a number of reasons...

    I do agree wholeheartedly with your sentiment above however.

    I mean....must begin during school time (fine)...but it seems theres no way to achieve that within existing rules in a lot of situations, what do you do...launch a crusade....how about the people making the rules think them out properly so they are actually workable?....then again they have already shown form for the exact opposite of that with the new JC.


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    #35
    Nellieelephant
    Registered Users Posts: 46 ✭Nellieelephant


    amacca wrote: »
    But if SS is not something that can be used to free up the relevant teachers at one time I suppose I can see managements point of view too......how the hell can you have a SLAR during school time when teachers just won't be off .. It just seems to be another very poorly thought out aspect of this shiny new JC ....I'm not sure she would get anywhere trying to organise a union meeting for a number of reasons...

    I do agree wholeheartedly with your sentiment above however.

    Yes agreed - so poorly thought out. Education in Ireland 2018.


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    #36
    Mountainsandh
    Registered Users Posts: 6,700 ✭✭✭Mountainsandh


    As the only teacher of my language in my school, there is also the added issue of finding a school to join for SLAR. I'm not too happy about having to go to another school, and I can't see other teachers being very happy with someone from the outside joining in.
    From a practical point of view, it also means that we have to find times that will suit both myself and them, with schools in our town finishing at different times different days, and that's assuming I am able to join the nearest school, where travelling time will also have to be allowed for.
    If I have to travel further, it is possible I may need to be released earlier, or join the meeting late (effectively possibly starting after school time).

    As it stands I may not have to do the CBA since I may work in another function in the school next year, I will be only too happy to drop the burden of this new Junior Cycle, but the issues will remain for whoever will take over.


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    #37
    doc_17
    Registered Users Posts: 6,852 ✭✭✭doc_17


    Benicetomonty wrote: »
    0015 - 2017

    What page in the circular does it say that?


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    #38
    SligoBrewer
    Registered Users Posts: 2,632 ✭✭✭SligoBrewer


    Mardy Bum wrote: »
    I'm lost here. The ASTI have nothing to do with the SLAR procedures. Where does it say that they must happen during school? We get 40 minutes off every week for them. The ASTI crumbled on this and had nothing to do with the arrangements.

    It's workers' conditions so the ASTI are of course going to stand up for what was agreed and is set out in multiple circulars and clarifications. The ASTI didn't crumble on anything to do with SLARs. The Junior Cycle reform as a whole is a different question entirely and I would argue that it was a minority who forced that through rather than the union as a union.
    Circular 24/2016 p. 21

    Since professional collaboration meetings can only be held when the relevant subject teachers can be present, a limited number of meetings may need to draw on teachers’ bundled time to run beyond normal school tuition hours for some of the duration of the meeting.
    Circular 15/2017 p. 26

    Since professional collaboration meetings can only be held when the relevant subject teachers can be present, a limited number of meetings may need to draw on teachers’ bundled time to run beyond normal school tuition hours for some of the duration of the meeting. A SLAR meeting should take place in one two-hour session

    The Department are quite clear on SLARs. They start inside the timetable, and can overrun. We use some of our timetabled time for this. It's since been clarified that S&S can't be used to cover classes. That is a management/department problem, not a teacher one.

    The TUI took the view that the school day on a half day extends to the full day. Which is a crock of nonsense.

    That the TUI aren't standing up for its members isn't any of the ASTI's concern.


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    #39
    evolving_doors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭evolving_doors


    Mountainsandh wrote: »
    As the only teacher of my language in my school, there is also the added issue of finding a school to join for SLAR. I'm not too happy about having to go to another school, and I can't see other teachers being very happy with someone from the outside joining in.
    From a practical point of view, it also means that we have to find times that will suit both myself and them, with schools in our town finishing at different times different days, and that's assuming I am able to join the nearest school, where travelling time will also have to be allowed for.
    If I have to travel further, it is possible I may need to be released earlier, or join the meeting late (effectively possibly starting after school time).

    As it stands I may not have to do the CBA since I may work in another function in the school next year, I will be only too happy to drop the burden of this new Junior Cycle, but the issues will remain for whoever will take over.

    I'm wondering is there a data issue here. Shouldn't students have to give consent for their material to be used in such a manner by another school?
    Or is it all to be anonymous?
    Are there any pieces of work that contain the student's image (video's etc)


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    #40
    Mardy Bum
    Registered Users Posts: 3,674 ✭✭✭Mardy Bum


    SligoBrewer wrote: »
    Mardy Bum wrote: »
    I'm lost here. The ASTI have nothing to do with the SLAR procedures. Where does it say that they must happen during school? We get 40 minutes off every week for them. The ASTI crumbled on this and had nothing to do with the arrangements.

    It's workers' conditions so the ASTI are of course going to stand up for what was agreed and is set out in multiple circulars and clarifications. The ASTI didn't crumble on anything to do with SLARs. The Junior Cycle reform as a whole is a different question entirely and I would argue that it was a minority who forced that through rather than the union as a union.
    Circular 24/2016 p. 21

    Since professional collaboration meetings can only be held when the relevant subject teachers can be present, a limited number of meetings may need to draw on teachers’ bundled time to run beyond normal school tuition hours for some of the duration of the meeting.
    Circular 15/2017 p. 26

    Since professional collaboration meetings can only be held when the relevant subject teachers can be present, a limited number of meetings may need to draw on teachers’ bundled time to run beyond normal school tuition hours for some of the duration of the meeting. A SLAR meeting should take place in one two-hour session

    The Department are quite clear on SLARs. They start inside the timetable, and can overrun. We use some of our timetabled time for this. It's since been clarified that S&S can't be used to cover classes. That is a management/department problem, not a teacher one.

    The TUI took the view that the school day on a half day extends to the full day. Which is a crock of nonsense.

    That the TUI aren't standing up for its members isn't any of the ASTI's concern.
    There is nothing clear there at all. It doesn't say meetings MUST start during school. Those that have classes free can obviously start during school but an English/Irish department with 8 teachers is unlikely to be this lucky and must use their professional time.


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    #41
    Mountainsandh
    Registered Users Posts: 6,700 ✭✭✭Mountainsandh


    evolving_doors wrote: »
    I'm wondering is there a data issue here. Shouldn't students have to give consent for their material to be used in such a manner by another school?
    Or is it all to be anonymous?
    Are there any pieces of work that contain the student's image (video's etc)

    I suppose within an educational context this shouldn't really matter, and yet I work with a high proportion of special needs students (and not) whose parents are often not supportive of their child's image being used.

    I have had to explain quite clearly to first years that they will indeed be recorded and possibly video-ed for educational purposes, regardless of the parents "consent to photos" signature or lack thereof at the start of the year.

    I did this because in previous years when I was already using audio/video as part of learning, the issue arose. It is a conflict or source of tension I really don't need as part of my teaching, yet while parents are often quite happy to let their child plaster their image all over social media, they will react antagonistically to schools recording the child's oral expression in a language.


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    #42
    doc_17
    Registered Users Posts: 6,852 ✭✭✭doc_17


    SLARs don’t have to start during school time. Nowhere does it say that in the circular.


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    #43
    Benicetomonty
    Registered Users Posts: 1,578 ✭✭✭Benicetomonty


    Mardy Bum wrote: »
    There is nothing clear there at all. It doesn't say meetings MUST start during school. Those that have classes free can obviously start during school but an English/Irish department with 8 teachers is unlikely to be this lucky and must use their professional time.

    A LIMITED number of meetings MAY RUN beyond school hrs for SOME of the duration of the meeting.

    Yes it is clear. Very clear. Meetings may run beyond, but cannot start, outside of school hrs. A limited number of them. Which means the majority should take place entirely within school hrs. For SOME of the duration is not ALL of the duration. Simples.


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    #44
    doc_17
    Registered Users Posts: 6,852 ✭✭✭doc_17


    Benicetomonty wrote: »
    A LIMITED number of meetings MAY RUN beyond school hrs for SOME of the duration of the meeting.

    Yes it is clear. Very clear. Meetings may run beyond, but cannot start, outside of school hrs. A limited number of them. Which means the majority should take place entirely within school hrs. For SOME of the duration is not ALL of the duration. Simples.

    No. They can start after school ends. How you could even attempt to get 3/4 teachers free for the same two hours during school time to have the meeting without using S&S, which you are not allowed to do, is beyond me


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    #45
    Benicetomonty
    Registered Users Posts: 1,578 ✭✭✭Benicetomonty


    doc_17 wrote: »
    No. They can start after school ends. How you could even attempt to get 3/4 teachers free for the same two hours during school time to have the meeting without using S&S, which you are not allowed to do, is beyond me

    No they cant. No reading of the quoted paragraph allows for that inference to take precedence over the other, which is that SLARs happen inside school hrs. They can happen during house exams because teachers can be off for several hrs on days during the exams. There is no other alternative that I can see. But Im not the one who has to visualise such an alternative if one is deemed necessary.


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    #46
    SligoBrewer
    Registered Users Posts: 2,632 ✭✭✭SligoBrewer


    doc_17 wrote: »
    No. They can start after school ends. How you could even attempt to get 3/4 teachers free for the same two hours during school time to have the meeting without using S&S, which you are not allowed to do, is beyond me

    It’s not for the full two hours (I’d argue the circular does lay out that the some/most should be fully inside the school day but no point in arguing that) that teachers are needed to relieved for. It’s for a minimum of one class period. How you cover it? I’d say you pay subs out if the school’s budget from teachers who have opted out of S&S.

    It was agreed by the department that they start in school. For them to start outside contradicts an agreement made.

    SLARs can’t all happen during house exams because there are time limits in place as to when they have to be done by. Business is early May I think, well before house exams.


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    #47
    deiseindublin
    Registered Users Posts: 2,259 ✭✭✭deiseindublin


    SligoBrewer wrote: »
    The TUI took the view that the school day on a half day extends to the full day. Which is a crock of nonsense.
    Absolute crock of s***. I tried arguing that point in my school at the time and all the back up I got from some was that there wouldn't be that many of them. Very convenient that the only example TUI gave of SLARs was a timetabled half day.

    I might start a poll here late to see how many school do have a timetabled half day, usually Wed or Fri.


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    #48
    deiseindublin
    Registered Users Posts: 2,259 ✭✭✭deiseindublin


    Does anybody have a complete list of when the SLARS happen:

    Business - Early May
    Maths
    Science
    ...


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    #49
    Mardy Bum
    Registered Users Posts: 3,674 ✭✭✭Mardy Bum


    Benicetomonty wrote: »
    doc_17 wrote: »
    No. They can start after school ends. How you could even attempt to get 3/4 teachers free for the same two hours during school time to have the meeting without using S&S, which you are not allowed to do, is beyond me

    No they cant. No reading of the quoted paragraph allows for that inference to take precedence over the other, which is that SLARs happen inside school hrs. They can happen during house exams because teachers can be off for several hrs on days during the exams. There is no other alternative that I can see. But Im not the one who has to visualise such an alternative if one is deemed necessary.

    I'm afraid that is wishful thinking. The circular is purposely ambiguous and unclear. The department are not paying for supervision and S & S is not suppose to be used. If it was it would say so. It doesn't say it must start during school. It says all teachers must be present. Obviously some subjects will be able to run during the day but no where does it say teachers must be given time off to take part in SLARS. The sentence you have quoted means nothing really as there is nothing before or after it with details about how this can be facilitated.

    I would love if it was during school btw.


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    #50
    Mountainsandh
    Registered Users Posts: 6,700 ✭✭✭Mountainsandh


    I wonder how it would pan out for someone (like myself) on job sharing. I am not in school 2 days per week, and am the only teacher of my subject in my school. What if the other schools are having their SLARS on my days off ?

    I have regular medical appointments and many commitments on my days off school, it may not be practical for me to attend at all.


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    #51
    Benicetomonty
    Registered Users Posts: 1,578 ✭✭✭Benicetomonty


    Mardy Bum wrote: »
    I'm afraid that is wishful thinking. The circular is purposely ambiguous and unclear. The department are not paying for supervision and S & S is not suppose to be used. If it was it would say so. It doesn't say it must start during school. It says all teachers must be present. Obviously some subjects will be able to run during the day but no where does it say teachers must be given time off to take part in SLARS. The sentence you have quoted means nothing really as there is nothing before or after it with details about how this can be facilitated.

    I would love if it was during school btw.

    I agree that it is ambiguous, and no doubt its deliberate. But if it continues to be challenged it will eventually come down to semantics and there is simply no other way to read that section that allows for SLARs to be scheduled outside school time.

    I know the JMB are looking for the whole issue to be clarified so Im sure it will be soon. I would expect theyl just push back the dates for when they can be held so that they can happen during house exams. Easiest solution.


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    #52
    deiseindublin
    Registered Users Posts: 2,259 ✭✭✭deiseindublin


    Chancer3001 wrote: »
    i signed up to a SLAR information meeting.
    Where is the SLAR info meeting on?


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    #53
    SligoBrewer
    Registered Users Posts: 2,632 ✭✭✭SligoBrewer


    deiseindublin wrote: »
    Where is the SLAR info meeting on?

    There was a SLAR facilitator meeting.


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    #54
    deiseindublin
    Registered Users Posts: 2,259 ✭✭✭deiseindublin


    Does anybody know if there is a list of SLAR dates compiled anywhere, or is it a case of going through each subject guideline doc to search for them?


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    #55
    Mardy Bum
    Registered Users Posts: 3,674 ✭✭✭Mardy Bum


    deiseindublin wrote: »
    Does anybody know if there is a list of SLAR dates compiled anywhere, or is it a case of going through each subject guideline doc to search for them?

    By right your jct coordinator should be on top of that. They get a few hours off for it.


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    #56
    acequion
    Registered Users Posts: 3,836 ✭✭✭acequion


    Teachers are utter idiots if they agree to do SLARS after school. An agreement was reached with the DES where SLARS do not start after school ends. The logistics of cover is not the problem of the ordinary teacher so every ordinary teacher should refuse point blank to attend a SLAR meeting scheduled to begin outside the school day. End of.


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    #57
    Icsics
    Registered Users Posts: 2,043 ✭✭✭Icsics


    acequion wrote: »
    Teachers are utter idiots if they agree to do SLARS after school. An agreement was reached with the DES where SLARS do not start after school ends. The logistics of cover is not the problem of the ordinary teacher so every ordinary teacher should refuse point blank to attend a SLAR meeting scheduled to begin outside the school day. End of.

    Completely agree acequion, & I was all ready to do battle to make sure SLARS started in school time. But when u read the circular the wording is deliberately ambiguous. We have a large dept & there’s no way all will be off together for any last class,nor do all have the 2nd yrs, but of course they all want to be there. Without a very clear directive it’s a battle we can’t win & to be honest nor am I willing to be the only one arguing with the Principal.


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    #58
    paddybarry
    Registered Users Posts: 471 ✭✭paddybarry


    Icsics wrote: »
    Completely agree acequion, & I was all ready to do battle to make sure SLARS started in school time. But when u read the circular the wording is deliberately ambiguous. We have a large dept & there’s no way all will be off together for any last class,nor do all have the 2nd yrs, but of course they all want to be there. Without a very clear directive it’s a battle we can’t win & to be honest nor am I willing to be the only one arguing with the Principal.

    If you are ASTI school, just show correspondence to school stewards. I did that, and management agreed to start within school time (they were going to do this after school).


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    #59
    acequion
    Registered Users Posts: 3,836 ✭✭✭acequion


    Or just show the correspondence to the principal. You would imagine few would have the balls to go against it.

    TBH I don't see the wording as ambiguous. It also doesn't state that SLARS take place outside class time. So again the logistics of when people are off and what to do about cover is a headache for management.

    It's just another example of the badly thought out shambles that this new JC is proving to be.


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    #60
    paddybarry
    Registered Users Posts: 471 ✭✭paddybarry


    acequion wrote: »
    Or just show the correspondence to the principal. You would imagine few would have the balls to go against it.

    TBH I don't see the wording as ambiguous. It also doesn't state that SLARS take place outside class time. So again the logistics of when people are off and what to do about cover is a headache for management.

    It's just another example of the badly thought out shambles that this new JC is proving to be.
    Managements problem not ours. If teachers stand firm JMB will force the dept to come to a solution. If not, well.........


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    #61
    acequion
    Registered Users Posts: 3,836 ✭✭✭acequion


    Urgent question here guys! In our school there will be four teachers at the SLAR, each with 4 samples of students' work. Our facilitator has informed us that we will all have to read the 16 pieces in advance to enable proper discussion on each at the meeting.

    Now I have alarm bells going off. At no point before all this got in did I hear of teachers having to prepare in advance for the SLAR,apart from the facilitator who is allowed time for this. I was under the impression that the work of the SLAR was done in the SLAR.

    Can anybody enlighten me,please?


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