Irish Times article - Dart expansion project set to cost over €600m more

Praetorian · 07-02-2020 1:48pm #1

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/dart-expansion-project-set-to-cost-over-600m-more-than-estimate-1.4164672

It pains me the lack of progress we are making with our railways. I'm angered by the now €600m extra the Irish times is claiming these badly needed projects will cost. Perhaps if they had started earlier we could have avoided these cost increases.

Some of this stuff truly isn't rocket science. We need to order trains and we need to erect some overhead lines. I know it's not as simple as that, but it's now 2020 and we still have no concrete plans. It's so hugely frustrating

CatInABox · 08-02-2020 11:59pm

Yes, I mentioned over on the infrastructure forum that the argument to be made here is that this needs to be done regardless of cost.

These guys are quibbling over €600m spread over 7 years while the chronic congestion in Dublin costs the country €2 billion EACH FECKING YEAR.

dowlingm · 09-02-2020 4:08am

I think it is understandable that the public is frustrated when public bodies produce estimates which are well below budgets which in turn, even with contingency, are dwarfed by the final cost. At some point you would think the law of averages would bring something in under. Instead there is the persistent sense of knowing initial underestimate to get political lock in.

Infini · 15-02-2020 2:16am

They need to stop whinging about costs and just BUILD IT. It's core infrastructure were talking about here not some red herring or vanity project it needs to be built and the more those up there complain about cost the more its gonna cost regardless and Dublin's infrastructure at this point is under serious strain, roads cant handle the traffic they're too small and the only thing that gets people out of cars is reliable transport. Can't overly rely on busses either so they should just stop complaining and just build it's a long term investment that does pay out in the long run.

Fred Cryton · 15-02-2020 4:07pm

We need to understand here it's not that the costs have increased, it's just they always hopelessly underestimate what the actual costs are at initial stages. Same thing with the Childrens hosptial, it would always cost north of 1.2 billion based on that design, it's just they were hopelessly bad at estimating at the beiginning.

As previous poster said, this needs to be done regardless of cost. It is utterly essential to preventing the city completely collapsing from congestion.

munchkin_utd · 17-02-2020 1:35pm

ffs, railways are expensive, but capital expenditure is more or less a one off - buy now, use for 20 - 30 years, a bit longer even all going well.

For example Munich is getting a new signal system for Ostbahnhof in the next few years which will cost about €220 million - to essentially do the same thing as the old one, but they got 50 years out of that so when you work out the cost per year its a pittance really - just like the Dart investment will be - if it ever happens in the next 1000 years.

donvito99 · 17-02-2020 8:28pm

munchkin_utd wrote: »

ffs, railways are expensive, but capital expenditure is more or less a one off - buy now, use for 20 - 30 years, a bit longer even all going well.

For example Munich is getting a new signal system for Ostbahnhof in the next few years which will cost about €220 million - to essentially do the same thing as the old one, but they got 50 years out of that so when you work out the cost per year its a pittance really - just like the Dart investment will be - if it ever happens in the next 1000 years.

But for €220m you could bypass a few towns in Mayo and maybe take 2/5 seats in the constituency.

Lord Glentoran · 17-02-2020 8:48pm

donvito99 wrote: »

But for €220m you could bypass a few towns in Mayo and maybe take 2/5 seats in the constituency.

Short term ballixology as usual. Given how volatile the electorate is now that would be a waste of time and money, and puts off the day when infrastructure provision in the Republic goes beyond a five year timescale.

Jem72 · 18-02-2020 9:47am

The reality is there should be a long-term nationwide electrification programme. With the average lifespan of a rail vehicle being greater than 30 years, anything ordered today most likely still be in use in 2055 given that it won't be delivered much before 2025. With combustion engines due to be banned from cars in less than 10 years, it seems to be utter madness that we'll be either burning diesel on the railways in 2055 or throwing out perfectly good railcars long before their useful life has expired.

The idea of bi-modal probably makes sense but in my experience very few things designed to perform two functions do either particular well. It also makes the whole order a lot more expensive.

n1ey · 24-02-2020 1:31pm

Jem72 wrote: »

The reality is there should be a long-term nationwide electrification programme. With the average lifespan of a rail vehicle being greater than 30 years, anything ordered today most likely still be in use in 2055 given that it won't be delivered much before 2025. With combustion engines due to be banned from cars in less than 10 years, it seems to be utter madness that we'll be either burning diesel on the railways in 2055 or throwing out perfectly good railcars long before their useful life has expired.

The idea of bi-modal probably makes sense but in my experience very few things designed to perform two functions do either particular well. It also makes the whole order a lot more expensive.

Metro-North (NYC) has run bimode. There are different places running bimode. The transition to hybrids running from battery instead of directly from a generator might improve fuel efficiency.

Fares in Ireland are expensive. The commuter tickets from a 20 mile range are higher than the same in Boston. Usage is low outside the corridors.

I think that the low usage from outside the corridors suggests that you need feeder service, which is essentially non-existent. Upgrade signaling, add track capacity, and increase average velocity. As far I am concerned, Irish rail is equivalent 1960s American railroading. You can do a lot more with the right management and some spending on the core.

There should be shame that it takes 2 hours in 2020 to make a run for Cork. You can do it faster with 1950s technology. The Illinois Central used to make Champaign Il in 1:10. This is 100 miles.

Bill

Irish Times article - Dart expansion project set to cost over €600m more

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