Mirror-Signal-Mirror-Maneuvere when turning

briany · 16-02-2020 10:37pm #1

Quick one on this. In terms of what a tester wants to see - I'm getting mixed messages on it. Some guys seem to say that you want to check your rear mirror, then side mirror, then signal, then a quick check of both again before the turn. But an instructor told me today that this is too much and it ought to be check rear mirror, signal, check side mirror, then turn. The idea for the latter being that a tester could fail you on the basis of over-checking the mirrors and not actually looking at the road ahead. Thoughts?

J_R · 18-02-2020 2:59am

briany wrote: »

Quick one on this. In terms of what a tester wants to see - I'm getting mixed messages on it. Some guys seem to say that you want to check your rear mirror, then side mirror, then signal, then a quick check of both again before the turn. But an instructor told me today that this is too much and it ought to be check rear mirror, signal, check side mirror, then turn. The idea for the latter being that a tester could fail you on the basis of over-checking the mirrors and not actually looking at the road ahead. Thoughts?

Hi.

When the last "New" rules of the road booklet came out, (now good few years back now), it used the acronym MSMM in a few places. I sent off an email to the RSA stating that I had been an instructor for I think ten years and always taught MSM. And gave an explanation and a half dozen reasons why I believed it was correct. MSM standing for Mirrors, Signal, Manoeuvre

Stated that I always fully explained to my pupils any instructions and gave reasons and examples why.

Re. MSM I would explain that before taking any action that they should assimilate all available information in order to make a good rational decision based on all the facts available. (Same goes for any situation in life)

Therefore say, for example, moving off, do ALL necessary obs before taking any action, Check mirrorS and blind spot. they are now in a position to make a rational decision as to whither it is safe to go or stay, if safe, Signal, release handbrake and go.

Added for an example if they did not check their right mirror and indicated in front of an approaching car the driver could panic, assume the car was pulling out and swerve or slam on the brakes.

Same goes when changing lanes, turning etc, check interior mirror, appropriate side mirror if necessary blind spot, indicate or postpone indicator if would be inappropriate. (And gave a few examples, of pros and cons)

Ended by asking would I have to change to this new MSMM system or continue on with MSM. Got very short reply. Continue with MSM.

One question would like to ask instructors who say check mirror, indicate then check mirror again. How long does it actually take to flick the indicator stalk ? why should they check a mirror again in such a short period of time. It screams indecisiveness, lack of confidence in their ability to read a mirror.

PS
Memory not what it was. Here actual reply

Dear John,

Thank you for your email in relation to the rules of the road.

The ‘system of car control’ is commonly known as MSM (Mirror, Signal, Maneuver) with the Maneuver element then further broken down to Position Speed & Look. Many training manuals use the MSM abbreviation to highlight the need for constant observation and to make additional checks whilst keeping in mind that conditions around you may change very quickly and constant observation and scanning of the environment is necessary.

I do not believe that you have been teaching incorrectly, the real issue comes in the way you communicate the need for a systematic approach to hazards. This is usually done with the basic MSM to start with, moving onto MSM + PSL and so on. (my bold)

briany · 22-02-2020 7:08pm

Thanks for the detailed reply, but I can't find an answer in it as to whether rear mirror - signal - side mirror - maneuver is an acceptable observation sequence for, say turning a corner (this being the sequence suggested by my current instructor).

MascotDec85 · 23-02-2020 9:32am

What I teach is this (eg. turning right into a side road).

Right mirror
Right signal
Centre mirror
Braking gently
Position (start drifting over to the centre line)
Down through gears
Look into the new road (for hazards)
Re-check right mirror
Turn if safe

Some instructors teach centre mirror and right mirror then signal. I think this is overkill. Effective use of the mirrors is important. As you drive you should be making use of your mirrors regularly so that you know who’s behind you etc.

briany · 23-02-2020 11:50am

Now I'm completely confused. Do I have to go back to my instructor and start arguing with him as to why his method might be wrong?

MascotDec85 · 23-02-2020 3:13pm

briany wrote: »

Now I'm completely confused. Do I have to go back to my instructor and start arguing with him as to why his method might be wrong?

As long as you’re observing effectively slight differences in order will make no difference. Sometimes orders/sequences need to be tweaked based on what’s actually happening around you. Awareness of your surroundings will help with this from regular mirror checks.

If you like your instructor, going back and arguing with him/her will simply get their back up.

J_R · 23-02-2020 9:35pm

briany wrote: »

Thanks for the detailed reply, but I can't find an answer in it as to whether rear mirror - signal - side mirror - manoeuvre is an acceptable observation sequence for, say turning a corner (this being the sequence suggested by my current instructor).

Hi

The standard proper, correct procedure for altering course is MirrorS, Signal, Manoeuvre, This means that you first check all necessary relevant mirrors, then and only then indicate. Why you should indicate before checking all necessary mirrors simply does not make any sense whatsoever.

So, to alter course, interior mirror, left or right mirror, indicate, then manoeuvre and manoeuvre is further broken down to position, speed and look

No need to argue with your instructor, every time he says something that does not appear to make any sense ask him, why, explain.

Everything your instructor teaches is and must be logical.

briany · 24-02-2020 12:20pm

J_R wrote: »

Hi

The standard proper, correct procedure for altering course is MirrorS, Signal, Manoeuvre, This means that you first check all necessary relevant mirrors, then and only then indicate. Why you should indicate before checking all necessary mirrors simply does not make any sense whatsoever.

So, to alter course, interior mirror, left or right mirror, indicate, then manoeuvre and manoeuvre is further broken down to position, speed and look

No need to argue with your instructor, every time he says something that does not appear to make any sense ask him, why, explain.

Everything your instructor teaches is and must be logical.

I did ask him why the other day. His reasoning sounded sensible enough - current RSA guidelines state mirror, signal, mirror, maneuvere. MSMM, as opposed to the previous M(s)SM. So the logic goes (for standard turning maneuvere), you check the state of following traffic, you signal your intent, you check the relevant side mirror to confirm no hazards are approaching, then perform the maneuvere.

J_R · 24-02-2020 5:14pm

briany wrote: »

I did ask him why the other day. His reasoning sounded sensible enough - current RSA guidelines state mirror, signal, mirror, maneuvere. MSMM, as opposed to the previous M(s)SM. So the logic goes (for standard turning maneuvere), you check the state of following traffic, you signal your intent, you check the relevant side mirror to confirm no hazards are approaching, then perform the maneuvere.

Hi,

Why should you blindly indicate when after checking you may have to cancel that indicator ?

Why not check first, then indicate or postpone. The expression "Going off half-cocked" springs to mind. And when does he recommend the blind spot check, before or after indicating ?

All other countries in the world use MSM. - Do a "Google" you will only find results in Ireland.

I used MSM for the fifteen years I was an instructor - no problem whatsoever. I never attempted to teach something illogical to my pupils as it would only confuse, as it has with you.

Re. the RSA I have only seen them use the acronym MSMM, never a detailed explanation. Perhaps a registered driving instructor should contact them, seek clarification. ?

briany · 24-02-2020 5:57pm

J_R wrote: »

Hi,

Why should you blindly indicate when after checking you may have to cancel that indicator ?

Why not check first, then indicate or postpone. The expression "Going off half-cocked" springs to mind. And when does he recommend the blind spot check, before or after indicating ?

All other countries in the world use MSM. - Do a "Google" you will only find results in Ireland.

I used MSM for the fifteen years I was an instructor - no problem whatsoever. I never attempted to teach something illogical to my pupils as it would only confuse, as it has with you.

Re. the RSA I have only seen them use the acronym MSMM, never a detailed explanation. Perhaps a registered driving instructor should contact them, seek clarification. ?

Both instructors I've had have recommended a blind spot check as the last thing prior to completing the maneuvers which require them. On the moving off procedure, it would be 2 blind spot checks, really. One during the observation, and one just as the car gets rolling.

It wouldn't make any sense for any professional driving instructor to teach a method to a fundamental driving maneuvere which is bang wrong. Every student who takes the test under his tutelage would fail and word would get around that he was teaching an incorrect method of driving.

J_R · 25-02-2020 8:46am

briany wrote: »

Both instructors I've had have recommended a blind spot check as the last thing prior to completing the maneuvers which require them. On the moving off procedure, it would be 2 blind spot checks, really. One during the observation, and one just as the car gets rolling.

It wouldn't make any sense for any professional driving instructor to teach a method to a fundamental driving maneuvere which is bang wrong. Every student who takes the test under his tutelage would fail and word would get around that he was teaching an incorrect method of driving.

Hi,

The MSM is the only correct method. It is dead simple, easily explained, understood and therefore remembered by every student. But most important it will continue to be used by pupils after the driving test. The convoluted teaching of MSMM less likely, or common sense might kick in and they will use MSM

The Mirrors, Signal section. Check the interior mirror , the appropriate side mirror, the blind spot check if necessary, if clear, indicate, look back to the front,. All in one smooth unhurried movement. Now ready to commence the Manoeuvre

It is of course essential that you are looking where you are going as you move forward and not making some final backward check. One correctly timed blind spot check is sufficient

Don't you know, it is always that nasty examiner's fault for a fail, never the instructor.

briany · 25-02-2020 11:16am

J_R wrote: »

Hi,

The MSM is the only correct method. It is dead simple, easily explained, understood and therefore remembered by every student. But most important it will continue to be used by pupils after the driving test. The convoluted teaching of MSMM less likely, or common sense might kick in and they will use MSM

The Mirrors, Signal section. Check the interior mirror , the appropriate side mirror, the blind spot check if necessary, if clear, indicate, look back to the front,. All in one smooth unhurried movement. Now ready to commence the Manoeuvre

It is of course essential that you are looking where you are going as you move forward and not making some final backward check. One correctly timed blind spot check is sufficient

Don't you know, it is always that nasty examiner's fault for a fail, never the instructor.

"Mirror, signal, mirror, maneuvere" is what currently appears on the EDT syllabus . I'm not saying that MSM is incorrect as there are clearly a great many drivers on the roads using that method with perfect success, but if a tester failed a candidate for following the sequence currently laid out by the RSA, it seems like it would make for a lively afternoon of Liveline.

J_R · 25-02-2020 12:08pm

briany wrote: »

"Mirror, signal, mirror, maneuvere" is what currently appears on the EDT syllabus . I'm not saying that MSM is incorrect as there are clearly a great many drivers on the roads using that method with perfect success, but if a tester failed a candidate for following the sequence currently laid out by the RSA, it seems like it would make for a lively afternoon of Liveline.

Hi

The problem is that there is no definite instructions for checks. Every 2nd driving instructor that uses MSMM appears to teach a different sequence.

Also I have had pupils who had been taught MSMM and some would be swinging their heads around like Linda Blair in the film The Exorcist

briany · 25-02-2020 12:23pm

J_R wrote: »
Also I have had pupils who had been taught MSMM and some would be swinging their heads around like Linda Blair in the film The Exorcist

That sounds more like a problem of execution, though, rather than an inherent problem with MSMM. That is to say you can look in mirrors simply using your eyes instead of swinging your neck around. Although it does raise a question as to whether you have to make your mirror checks super obvious to a tester.

J_R · 27-02-2020 9:18am

briany wrote: »

Both instructors I've had have recommended a blind spot check as the last thing prior to completing the maneuvers which require them. On the moving off procedure, it would be 2 blind spot checks, really. One during the observation, and one just as the car gets rolling.

It wouldn't make any sense for any professional driving instructor to teach a method to a fundamental driving maneuvere which is bang wrong. Every student who takes the test under his tutelage would fail and word would get around that he was teaching an incorrect method of driving.

HI,

regarding the bold text.

This is a true story. I had an excellent pupil once and after a few lessons advised her she would have no problem passing the test. So, she did the test and failed on observation. She had drawn the strictest tester in the centre but I always found him very fair and was therefore very surprised. Quizzed her, and yes, she claimed she did all the necessary checks and exactly as I had taught.

As I reckoned I had not done my job properly preparing her for the test I immediately booked and paid for a re-test, and also requested a cancellation slot.

Next few weeks gave all my pupils that were doing the test a really hard time on observation. Warned them all about my fail with Mr X and to be ultra careful with him.

But I had no more fails.

After few weeks pupil phoned, she had a date so we made an appointment for a lesson.

She turned up. I watched ultra careful as she moved off, perfect obs, instructed her take the next right, absolutely perfect MSM (repeat MSM) into the junction, everything perfect, then just before she turned the wheel to take the turn she gave a full backwards blind spot check. We drove out of the junction and parked.

Very calmly asked her why did she give a blind spot check. Told me that is what her boyfriends driving instructor was teaching him and if he did not give that check he would fail the test.

And I have had several people tell me that instructor has a 100% pass rate.

Don't really expect you to believe but all, absolutely true

MascotDec85 · 27-02-2020 10:12am

All instructors will have very slight differences in the steps and sequences they instruct. Much of it is down to personal preference. Clearly, teaching to do a blind spot check prior to exiting a junction is wrong but as long as you demonstrate to the tester you are observing effectively the tester won’t get caught up in those slight differences too much so, OP, don’t get caught up too much in this thread as you’ll end up getting confused. If you’re happy with your instructor and they’ve been well recommended to you go with their advice.

MascotDec85 · 27-02-2020 10:14am

It also seems to me that there’s a bit of confusion regarding steps over and the conversation is going at cross purposes from turning to moving off etc

Mirror-Signal-Mirror-Maneuvere when turning

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