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CTA flights at DUB. Why are they not segregated?

  • 18-02-2020 1:28pm
    #1
    Crock Rock
    Closed Accounts Posts: 616 ✭✭✭


    I flew yesterday with Mrs. Rock to LGW from DUB. We were able to just swan off as if we were doing an intra-Schengen flight from HEL to CDG for example. It was brilliant not having to queue at passport control.

    To contrast this, when I return to DUB later this week I'll be in the same queue as arrivals from LHR, LGW, CDG, JFK and even Hong Kong.

    Even flights from Donegal to Dublin are forced through passport control. Are we in the CTA or not?


«1

Comments

  • #2
    un5byh7sqpd2x0
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,862 ✭✭✭un5byh7sqpd2x0


    Here we go again...


  • #3
    Nijmegen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,086 ✭✭✭Nijmegen


    I think there's a whole discussion on this in the infrastructure thread. tl;dr they could but it'd be inefficient or they're lazy halfwits, depending on who you believe.


  • #4
    trellheim
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,965 ✭✭✭trellheim


    Unfortunately this is a topic banned on this board much as I and others share your views. There is a thread - not the infrastructure one but one titled "passport control at Dub" or something like that, where views were aired at length, feel free to search.

    tl'dr you are right , CTA however is not a legal obligation and therefore the airport and agencies working there can do what they wish.


  • #5
    PommieBast
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,806 ✭✭✭PommieBast


    In the past I have got through Dublin and Shannon without a passport when flying from London. Having said that the inspectors have become very arsey about people doing so the last 2-3 years, and I doubt the CTA will survive Brexit.

    I've also noticed that they always scan passports these days.


  • #6
    Cookiemunster
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 12,193 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cookiemunster


    PommieBast wrote: »
    In the past I have got through Dublin and Shannon without a passport when flying from London. Having said that the inspectors have become very arsey about people doing so the last 2-3 years, and I doubt the CTA will survive Brexit.

    I've also noticed that they always scan passports these days.

    The CTA predates our and the UKs entry into the EEC, so is not affected by Brexit.


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  • #7
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,924 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    Crock Rock wrote: »
    I flew yesterday with Mrs. Rock to LGW from DUB. We were able to just swan off as if we were doing an intra-Schengen flight from HEL to CDG for example. It was brilliant not having to queue at passport control.

    To contrast this, when I return to DUB later this week I'll be in the same queue as arrivals from LHR, LGW, CDG, JFK and even Hong Kong.

    Even flights from Donegal to Dublin are forced through passport control. Are we in the CTA or not?

    Basically the CTA applies only to Irish and British citizens.

    Everyone else needs a passport to enter either country and many require separate visas to do so.

    For better or not, the Irish immigration authorities have decided to check everyone entering Ireland at Irish airports, and from other posts on this topic by INIS staff there is still apparently a significant number of arriving passengers from airports within the CTA who are not entitled to enter the country and get sent back.

    FYI UK Border Force do random checks on flights from Ireland (I’ve had them), but I would assume that they view the risk of illegal immigration into the UK is less from Ireland, than the Irish authorities do in the opposite direction.

    There is no excuse however for the two Irish domestic routes - arriving passengers on them should be facilitated with a dedicated secure channel but for whatever reason the DAA haven’t done so.


  • #8
    donvito99
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,818 ✭✭✭donvito99


    SI No 227 of 1997 allows for this situation.

    "(a) An immigration officer may examine an alien arriving in the State from Great Britain or Northern Ireland (referred to subsequently in this paragraph as "an alien to whom this paragraph applies") for the purpose of determining whether he or she should be given leave to land and the provisions of paragraphs (1) to (6) and (8) of this Article shall apply in the case of such a person as they apply in the case of a person coming from a place outside the State other than Great Britain or Northern Ireland with any necessary modifications."

    So basically, the Brits pull their weight and we don't in this regard.


  • #9
    Noxegon
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,560 ✭✭✭Noxegon


    Cookiemunster wrote: »
    The CTA predates our and the UKs entry into the EEC, so is not affected by Brexit.

    You forget that the UK and Ireland entered the EU on the same day.

    With the UK out of the EU the CTA represents a potential back door into Europe. I'd be surprised if Brussels was enthusiastic about that.

    I develop Superior Solitaire when I'm not procrastinating on boards.ie.



  • #10
    sweet_trip
    Closed Accounts Posts: 275 ✭✭sweet_trip


    possibly unrelated but I flew to Manchester recently and when I arrived there was no passport control, no customs. nothing.

    Got off the plane, walked into the terminal, straight onto the street.


    Not one check, literally open doors the entire way bar a little unmanned corridor if you had anything to declare.


    Was a bit mad.


  • #11
    Bit cynical
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,338 ✭✭✭Bit cynical


    Noxegon wrote: »
    You forget that the UK and Ireland entered the EU on the same day.

    With the UK out of the EU the CTA represents a potential back door into Europe. I'd be surprised if Brussels was enthusiastic about that.
    However migrants from the UK in Ireland would still need a passport with valid visa to travel to other EU countries as we are not in Schengen. Our non-membership of Schengen permits our continued operation of the CTA.


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  • #12
    Locker10a
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 4,185 Mod ✭✭✭✭Locker10a


    sweet_trip wrote: »
    possibly unrelated but I flew to Manchester recently and when I arrived there was no passport control, no customs. nothing.

    Got off the plane, walked into the terminal, straight onto the street.


    Not one check, literally open doors the entire way bar a little unmanned corridor if you had anything to declare.


    Was a bit mad.

    This is normal landing in the UK from Ireland or any domestic flight


  • #13
    Charles Babbage
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,904 ✭✭✭Charles Babbage


    Noxegon wrote: »
    You forget that the UK and Ireland entered the EU on the same day.

    With the UK out of the EU the CTA represents a potential back door into Europe. I'd be surprised if Brussels was enthusiastic about that.


    Since Ireland is not in Schengen, the only part of Europe it allows you in is Ireland.


  • #14
    sweet_trip
    Closed Accounts Posts: 275 ✭✭sweet_trip


    Locker10a wrote: »
    This is normal landing in the UK from Ireland or any domestic flight


    Liverpool, and all the London airports have stringent checks last time I used them. So I don't know.


  • #15
    Locker10a
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 4,185 Mod ✭✭✭✭Locker10a


    sweet_trip wrote: »
    Liverpool, and all the London airports have stringent checks last time I used them. So I don't know.

    I’ve never landed in London from an Irish flight and had my passport checked to be honest


  • #16
    Caranica
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,141 ✭✭✭✭Caranica


    Bristol force Irish flights through passport control while ushering domestic flights straight through. First time I flew through there I thought it was all flights until a visit last year my friend's flight from Edinburgh arrived at the same time as mine from Dublin.


  • #17
    VG31
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,474 ✭✭✭VG31


    Locker10a wrote: »
    I’ve never landed in London from an Irish flight and had my passport checked to be honest

    I've flown into LHR, LCY, MAN, EDI and INV in the last year and have never had my passport checked.


  • #18
    Crock Rock
    Closed Accounts Posts: 616 ✭✭✭Crock Rock


    Imagine the following scenario:

    I have an eastern European name, my parents are Ukrainian but I was born and raised here.

    I fly from Donegal to Dublin using my work ID as identification, as EI accepts this.

    I had a e-boarding pass on my phone which died in the long queue

    I arrive in at the same time as the flight from Kyiv.

    What happens at the booth?


  • #19
    Charles Babbage
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,904 ✭✭✭Charles Babbage


    There will be an issue with the CTA in that it will be like pre 1992 in that there will be customs checks.
    At DUB they would be wise to segregate flights for this reason alone.


  • #20
    goingnowhere
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,206 ✭✭✭goingnowhere


    Caranica wrote: »
    Bristol force Irish flights through passport control while ushering domestic flights straight through. First time I flew through there I thought it was all flights until a visit last year my friend's flight from Edinburgh arrived at the same time as mine from Dublin.

    Depends on the gate, walked through 'Isle of Man/Republic of Ireland' in Bristol on Friday last arriving from Dublin, that dumps you into the baggage hall and customs

    The UK channel skips customs


  • #21
    Crock Rock
    Closed Accounts Posts: 616 ✭✭✭Crock Rock


    Crock Rock wrote: »
    Imagine the following scenario:

    I have an eastern European name, my parents are Ukrainian but I was born and raised here.

    I fly from Donegal to Dublin using my work ID as identification, as EI accepts this.

    I had a e-boarding pass on my phone which died in the long queue

    I arrive in at the same time as the flight from Kyiv.

    What happens at the booth?

    Well???


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  • #22
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,924 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    Crock Rock wrote: »
    Imagine the following scenario:

    I have an eastern European name, my parents are Ukrainian but I was born and raised here.

    I fly from Donegal to Dublin using my work ID as identification, as EI accepts this.

    I had a e-boarding pass on my phone which died in the long queue

    I arrive in at the same time as the flight from Kyiv.

    What happens at the booth?

    You won’t clash, as the flight from Donegal arrives into T2, into which there are no flights from Eastern Europe.


  • #23
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,924 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    VG31 wrote: »
    I've flown into LHR, LCY, MAN, EDI and INV in the last year and have never had my passport checked.

    As I posted above, UK Border Force do carry out intelligence led spot checks - I’ve experienced them at London City in the past.


  • #24
    Crock Rock
    Closed Accounts Posts: 616 ✭✭✭Crock Rock


    LXFlyer wrote: »
    You won’t clash, as the flight from Donegal arrives into T2, into which there are no flights from Eastern Europe.

    Switch Ukrainian for American.


  • #25
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,924 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    Crock Rock wrote: »
    Switch Ukrainian for American.

    You’ll surely have an Irish accent in that scenario if you were born and raised here - that surely would be a give away..

    The immigration officials make judgements as outlined in the other threads on the topic.

    I’m sure they could find a charger to boot up your phone if they doubted your honesty!

    The scenario you outline clearly hasn’t happened much or we would have heard about it in the media.

    Perhaps take this up with the DAA as they’re responsible for the airport layout?


  • #26
    thenightman
    Registered Users Posts: 561 ✭✭✭thenightman


    Only time I've ever had my passport checked in UK was in the early 90's in Heathrow when I was 12 and travelling alone to stay with my uncle in London for the weekend. Special branch detective looked at my passport, asked me who was collecting me and left it at that.

    Been through EDI, LGW, MAN, LHR, LLA & LCY probably a combined 50 or 60 times over past 20 odd years and not one check. Tis annoying arriving back in Dublin and having to queue up at passport control, but at least the passport machines speed things up a bit these days.


  • #27
    VG31
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,474 ✭✭✭VG31


    LXFlyer wrote: »
    As I posted above, UK Border Force do carry out intelligence led spot checks - I’ve experienced them at London City in the past.

    I never said they don't happen but they can't be that frequent as I've never experienced them.

    I've never had ID checks on intra Schengen flights either (haven't taken anywhere near as many of these as flights to the UK admittedly). I have experienced checks at land borders though.


  • #28
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,924 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    VG31 wrote: »
    I never said they don't happen but they can't be that frequent as I've never experienced them.

    I've never had ID checks on intra Schengen flights either (haven't taken anywhere near as many of these as flights to the UK admittedly). I have experienced checks at land borders though.

    I think we have to accept (whether we agree with it or not!), that the two countries have a different set up - the UK chooses to use intelligence led checks as explained in other threads, presumably on the basis that they assess the risk of mass illegal immigration off Irish flights to be low, while our immigration authorities view it the opposite way around.

    The one thing for certain in my view is that the domestic flight arrivals should not be subject to checks - that’s just daft.


  • #29
    trellheim
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,965 ✭✭✭trellheim


    Arriving into the UK I have been subject to random/intelligence-led Border Force checks at ALL of the UK airports.


  • #30
    GBX
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,020 ✭✭✭✭GBX


    Will Ireland join the Schengen area agreement going forward with Brexit in progress? Why did the govt decide not to go ahead and join previously?


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  • #31
    rainbow kirby
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,928 ✭✭✭✭rainbow kirby


    I travel back and forth between the UK and Ireland with my children around 6 times a year - usually MAN-DUB (we live in Manchester) but I lived in London for a good while so have travelled out of all the airports there too. I've only ever had a passport checked on landing at Gatwick once about 5 years ago. Usually if there is any check the boarding pass is enough.


  • #32
    Cookiemunster
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 12,193 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cookiemunster


    GBX wrote: »
    Will Ireland join the Schengen area agreement going forward with Brexit in progress? Why did the govt decide not to go ahead and join previously?


    We didn't join because the UK didn't join. We can't be in both the Schengen and the CTA and it's unlikely to change.


  • #33
    Crock Rock
    Closed Accounts Posts: 616 ✭✭✭Crock Rock


    Sorry to sidetrack. This is something I'm curious about.

    What if someone flew a small private aircraft from France for example to Weston.

    Who would do the Schengen exit checks and where would the be done? Who would check the documents of passengers landing in Ireland? Assuming all passengers are EU citizens.

    What if I flew Russian or Chinese passport holders in with me?


  • #34
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,924 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    Crock Rock wrote: »
    Sorry to sidetrack. This is something I'm curious about.

    What if someone flew a small private aircraft from France for example to Weston.

    Who would do the Schengen exit checks and where would the be done? Who would check the documents of passengers landing in Ireland? Assuming all passengers are EU citizens.

    What if I flew Russian or Chinese passport holders in with me?

    Well such a flight would require 48 hours advance notice, and INIS officials would be required to meet the flight at Weston.

    You can’t simply fly in on the spur of the moment without prior notification if that’s what you’re thinking.

    Look at www.westonairport.ie


  • #35
    LiamaDelta
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 824 ✭✭✭LiamaDelta


    GBX wrote: »
    Will Ireland join the Schengen area agreement going forward with Brexit in progress? Why did the govt decide not to go ahead and join previously?

    We can't join Schengen while we have an open border with a non-schengen country.


  • #36
    Crock Rock
    Closed Accounts Posts: 616 ✭✭✭Crock Rock


    LXFlyer wrote: »
    Well such a flight would require 48 hours advance notice, and INIS officials would be required to meet the flight at Weston.

    You can’t simply fly in on the spur of the moment without prior notification if that’s what you’re thinking.

    Look at www.westonairport.ie

    Thanks. People here really know their stuff.

    Would INIS have to meet a private flight from the UK to Ireland?

    Can a person be charged with illegal immigration into their own country?

    What if I flew my own private helicopter from the north of France and just landed in my own garden?

    Sorry for the stupid questions, folks.


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  • #37
    dfx-
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 15,694 Mod ✭✭✭✭dfx-


    VG31 wrote: »
    I never said they don't happen but they can't be that frequent as I've never experienced them.

    I've never had ID checks on intra Schengen flights either (haven't taken anywhere near as many of these as flights to the UK admittedly). I have experienced checks at land borders though.

    There are frequent boarding pass checks and/or passport checks coming into BHX with the utterly stupid arrivals set up at the Ryanair gates for EI flights. Dublin does it well by comparison.


  • #38
    Spook_ie
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,896 ✭✭✭✭Spook_ie


    Crock Rock wrote: »
    I flew yesterday with Mrs. Rock to LGW from DUB. We were able to just swan off as if we were doing an intra-Schengen flight from HEL to CDG for example. It was brilliant not having to queue at passport control.

    To contrast this, when I return to DUB later this week I'll be in the same queue as arrivals from LHR, LGW, CDG, JFK and even Hong Kong.

    Even flights from Donegal to Dublin are forced through passport control. Are we in the CTA or not?

    I flew back from a funeral in Birmingham last Tuesday, there are signs saying EU and UK ( CTA )


  • #39
    Stevieluvsye
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,907 ✭✭✭Stevieluvsye


    Crock Rock wrote: »
    Thanks. People here really know their stuff.

    Would INIS have to meet a private flight from the UK to Ireland?

    Can a person be charged with illegal immigration into their own country?

    What if I flew my own private helicopter from the north of France and just landed in my own garden?

    Sorry for the stupid questions, folks.

    Drug run is it?


  • #40
    x567
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 214 ✭✭x567


    Slightly off-topic, but I can't see how the current CTA arrangements can possibly work going in to the UK once their new immigration rules announced today take effect? If it continues like it is today (I am another that has rarely if ever had my passport checked going in to the UK over many trips), then any EU citizen without a visa could probably just walk into the UK from Ireland and bypass the new UK controls.


  • #41
    0lddog
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,292 ✭✭✭0lddog


    I wonder if some of the posters on this thread are aware that there is a Legal Forum ?


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  • #42
    Crock Rock
    Closed Accounts Posts: 616 ✭✭✭Crock Rock


    x567 wrote: »
    Slightly off-topic, but I can't see how the current CTA arrangements can possibly work going in to the UK once their new immigration rules announced today take effect? If it continues like it is today (I am another that has rarely if ever had my passport checked going in to the UK over many trips), then any EU citizen without a visa could probably just walk into the UK from Ireland and bypass the new UK controls.

    I just sincerely hope that our position as an integral EU member is not compromised because of the British.


  • #43
    Jamie2k9
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,756 ✭✭✭✭Jamie2k9


    x567 wrote: »
    Slightly off-topic, but I can't see how the current CTA arrangements can possibly work going in to the UK once their new immigration rules announced today take effect? If it continues like it is today (I am another that has rarely if ever had my passport checked going in to the UK over many trips), then any EU citizen without a visa could probably just walk into the UK from Ireland and bypass the new UK controls.

    What have the rules today got to do with it. Millions of people will still continue to visit the UK up for to 90 days and EU citizens will not require a Visa (regardless of deal or not). No such thing as bypassing UK controls because they receive Advanced Passenger Information when you arrive and depart UK.

    The UK are wise to people who use Ireland as a route to avoid getting caught.


  • #44
    Crock Rock
    Closed Accounts Posts: 616 ✭✭✭Crock Rock


    We arrived back yesterday, we flew with WX.

    At immigration I just showed my boarding pass and a public services card and told him I came in from LCY and he waved me through.


  • #45
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,513 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Charles Babbage wrote: »
    There will be an issue with the CTA in that it will be like pre 1992 in that there will be customs checks.
    At DUB they would be wise to segregate flights for this reason alone.

    Customs is after immigration (and baggage reclaim, obviously) so it makes no difference, still blue green and red channels and it's up to you to go through the correct one.

    Scrap the cap!



  • #46
    blackwhite
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,961 ✭✭✭blackwhite


    Crock Rock wrote: »
    I fly from Donegal to Dublin using my work ID as identification, as EI accepts this.

    My OH was refused travel from KIR-DUB a few weeks ago because she didn't have a driver's licence or passport with her. She did have her work ID.

    EI refused work ID as they stated she'd have problems in DUB on arrival, and EI could possibly be fined for accepting a non-official ID.


  • #47
    Locker10a
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 4,185 Mod ✭✭✭✭Locker10a


    blackwhite wrote: »
    My OH was refused travel from KIR-DUB a few weeks ago because she didn't have a driver's licence or passport with her. She did have her work ID.

    EI refused work ID as they stated she'd have problems in DUB on arrival, and EI could possibly be fined for accepting a non-official ID.

    I think it depends if the ID states nationality and DOB etc


  • #48
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,513 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Driving licence doesn't state nationality!

    Scrap the cap!



  • #49
    jimmycrackcorm
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,345 ✭✭✭✭jimmycrackcorm


    Hotblack Desiato wrote: »
    Driving licence doesn't state nationality!

    For domestic travel, nationality doesn't matter. The dives if the id does. A driving licences is an official government provided id


  • #50
    blackwhite
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,961 ✭✭✭blackwhite


    Locker10a wrote: »
    I think it depends if the ID states nationality and DOB etc

    Previous poster stated that they were able to travel from CFN-DUB with a work ID only. I can't imagine that there's many employers who include DOB and Nationality on their ID badges? Equally well, airlines are required to validate the ID of every passenger - if challenged by regulator, etc. then would a work ID that cannot be validated as genuine or fake qualify as suitable ID ?


  • #51
    Locker10a
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 4,185 Mod ✭✭✭✭Locker10a


    blackwhite wrote: »
    Previous poster stated that they were able to travel from CFN-DUB with a work ID only. I can't imagine that there's many employers who include DOB and Nationality on their ID badges? Equally well, airlines are required to validate the ID of every passenger - if challenged by regulator, etc. then would a work ID that cannot be validated as genuine or fake qualify as suitable ID ?

    https://www.aerlingus.com/travel-information/passports-and-visas/travel-to-from-britain/

    Actually it seems having a photos is the most important thing!


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