The Left-Oriented Pendulum Of Irish Politics

JoeFritzl · 17-02-2020 2:58am #1

This is just my opinion. Politics in Ireland can, of course, not easily be compared with politics in other countries but it is clear that we lack the far-right wing resurgence we are seeing in other countries. I think this is bad, as diversity is the key to a stability and progress.

We have pretty far-left parties here. SLD/PBP, Sinn Féin, Social Democrats and even the green party are all considered to be left wing. They are written in order of magnitude. The important thing to note here is that their right-wing counterparts are FG/FF. Two quiet centralist, by foreign standards, parties who carry with them an uneasy populist vibe. Irish politics has always been populist/trendist and always lacked creative political vision, but this just seems like we are being presented with options that are innately left-orientated and our country is never exposed to true right-wing politics.

It's very easy for people to discount the likes of Gemma O'Doherty, the Nationalist Party and the remaining few entities of Irish society which do indeed express such ideals. But in doing so we are denying our youth of an opportunity to be cultured, to be exposed to all forms of politics as we, for some arrogant reason, deem them not to be trustworthy of handling such a dangerous species of politics. Our vision is diluted by a sea of extreme left-wing politics that the likes of FF/FG juxtapose these parties so much so they seem almost far-right in nature. I can see why people get so scared of far-right politics because it is alien to us. What do people think about this?

Peregrinus · 17-02-2020 3:21am

Far from having a "left-oriented" pendulum, Irish politics has seen government alternate between two dominant right-of-centre parties throughout the history of the state. Left parties have at best been junior partners in coalitions from time to time.

Even now, with the rise of the left and the vote for change, it's impossible to see a viable government without at least one of the major centre-right parties being formed. And the centre-right vote, if you aggregate FF, FG and votes for independents who are close to FF or FG, exceeds 50%.

It's true that the far-right has got little traction in Ireland, but it's absurd to suggest that this imperils stability or progress - quite the opposite, I would have thought - or that it means that we lack diversity. There is no sense in which "we are denying our youth of an opportunity to be cultured, to be exposed to all forms of politics" - you yourself point to far-right parties active in Ireland. But because we do have diverse options, people have viable alternatives to the far right, and the way they vote tells us that they prefer those options, which is what diversity is supposed to facilitate. The far right has large failed here not because we "lack diversity" but because our political culture is such that fascism finds little appeal.

As for being adrift in a sea of extreme left-wing politics, if you have to categorise Sinn Fein, the Greens or the Social Democrats as "far left" to arrive at that conclusion, you're not going to find much support.

JoeFritzl · 17-02-2020 3:55am

Peregrinus wrote: »

Far from having a "left-oriented" pendulum, Irish politics has seen government alternate between two dominant right-of-centre parties throughout the history of the state. Left parties have at best been junior partners in coalitions from time to time.

Even now, with the rise of the left and the vote for change, it's impossible to see a viable government without at least one of the major centre-right parties being formed. And the centre-right vote, if you aggregate FF, FG and votes for independents who are close to FF or FG, exceeds 50%.

It's true that the far-right has got little traction in Ireland, but it's absurd to suggest that this imperils stability or progress - quite the opposite, I would have thought - or that it means that we lack diversity. There is no sense in which "we are denying our youth of an opportunity to be cultured, to be exposed to all forms of politics" - you yourself point to far-right parties active in Ireland. But because we do have diverse options, people have viable alternatives to the far right, and the way they vote tells us that they prefer those options, which is what diversity is supposed to facilitate. The far right has large failed here not because we "lack diversity" but because our political culture is such that fascism finds little appeal.

As for being adrift in a sea of extreme left-wing politics, if you have to categorise Sinn Fein, the Greens or the Social Democrats as "far left" to arrive at that conclusion, you're not going to find much support.

Read it again, I didn't say those 3 were far left, and listed them as the 4 left wing parties of Ireland, in order of magnitude.

You also cemented my point in saying that we have been dominated by right-wing politics all our history. FF/FG are definitely not right wing, and the opposition has always been left. You have to see that right-wing politics has been blinded. We want to get in, but can't, because "we've had our time with FF/FG".

Breezer · 17-02-2020 4:09am

We had an economically right wing party once, the Progressive Democrats. They did very well for a time and then faded away for several reasons. I think there will in the future be room for a party with similar politics, but not right now.

If you’re talking about far right social politics, e.g. AfD, there doesn’t, I’m delighted to say, appear be any appetite amongst the general Irish populace for it. I personally think we in Ireland can do without this particular cultural enrichment. And I’m not what you’d call a left winger. If anyone feels they’re missing out, there are numerous examples within Europe and North America that they can look to and see what it’s all about.

Peregrinus · 17-02-2020 4:25am

JoeFritzl wrote: »

Read it again, I didn't say those 3 were far left, and listed them as the 4 left wing parties of Ireland, in order of magnitude.

You also cemented my point in saying that we have been dominated by right-wing politics all our history. FF/FG are definitely not right wing, and the opposition has always been left. You have to see that right-wing politics has been blinded. We want to get in, but can't, because "we've had our time with FF/FG".

I think maybe we are just arguing about terms.

"The right" embraces a range, from the centre-right to the far-right. Irish politics has always been dominated by the centre-right; it still is. The far right has always struggled to find any traction in Ireland, not because we lack diversity but simply because it has never succeeded in commending itself to any significant number of Irish voters.

Similarly "the left" runs from the centre-left to the far left. The centre-left in Ireland has never been as popular as the centre-right (and still isn't), while the far-left in Ireland has done a bit better than the far-right, though that's not saying much. But it's still the case that the Irish left wing tends strongly to the centre-left.

It's a feature of Irish politics, in fact, that on both the right and the left parties maximise their support by tending towards the centre, and marginalise it by tending away from the centre.

I can't agree that "FF/FG are definitely not right wing"; they definitely are. Nor can I accept that "the opposition has always been left"; the norm in Ireland has been that the centre-right provides both the governing party and the dominant opposition party, with the left being relegated to the margins of the opposition or, sometimes, the minority party in a coalition government.

When you say "We want to get in, but can't, because 'we've had our time with FF/FG'" it seems to me that you are coming out as a far-right supporter yourself. (My apologies if I am misreading you here.) I think your problem here is that Irish political parties are extraordinarily durable, by comparison with what is normal in European politics. They rarely split, and new parties find it difficult to get traction. In most European countries, new political ideas frequently advance and acheive influence through the foundation and growth of new parties, but in Ireland this is far more likely to happen by new ideas being taken up by existing parties.

Of the top five parties in Dail Eireann, FF was founded in 1927; SF in 1905; FG in 1933; the Greens in 1981 and Labour in 1912. The Greens are the only party that could be considered a new foundation that has introduced new ideas. Interestingly, while you can (and do) classify them as a left-wing party they themselves would say that their placement on a left-right spectrum is a secondary issue, not what they are about, and an almost arbitrary by-product of the social and philosophical ideas that really motivate them, which have little to do with the struggle between capital and labour.

IRISHSPORTSGUY · 17-02-2020 5:33am

Are our right wing parties really THAT right wing though? I'd argue FF are more populist than tied to a particular ideology (most vividly during the Bertie years) and FG have committed to gay marriage/abortion referendums on their watch?

ittakestwo · 17-02-2020 5:53am

Irish culturally is left wing. Comes from the fact the rich Britsh kicked the the poor Irish of thier land and the poor Irish had to spend the next 500 years fight the rich British to get thier land back... its ingrained into our national phych to be left.

Peregrinus · 17-02-2020 6:30am

IRISHSPORTSGUY wrote: »

Are our right wing parties really THAT right wing though? I'd argue FF are more populist than tied to a particular ideology (most vividly during the Bertie years) and FG have committed to gay marriage/abortion referendums on their watch?

ittakestwo wrote: »

Irish culturally is left wing. Comes from the fact the rich Britsh kicked the the poor Irish of thier land and the poor Irish had to spend the next 500 years fight the rich British to get thier land back... its ingrained into our national phych to be left.

I don't agree. If you take the view that the right/left dichotomy is mainly about the balance between capital/property on the one hand and labour on the other, then Irish politics is definitely centre-right.

As regards land, the whole thrust of Irish policy has been that farmers should own the land they farm, and people should (so far as practicable) own the homes they live in; in both cases the central importance of property rights is taken as a given. A left-wing approach to these issues would be quite different; left-wingers would default to limiting the rights of property owners in the interests of the farmers who work land which they do not own, or the people who live in houses which they do not own. Our approach affirms the necessity of owning land/houses in order to have security/control; it builds up and reinforces the rights of property-owners.

As for same-sex marriage and abortion, it's perfectly possible to support these for right-wing reasons. On this very board I have seen people argue in favour of liberal abortion regimes because they think this will tend to reduce crime rates, and so serves the interest of property owners, and you can (and people do) argue for marriage equality, abortion and indeed sexual liberation generally on the premise that people "own" their own bodies, reducing the issue again to the primacy of property rights. While I don't disagree with the conclusions reached - yes to marriage equality, yes to choice - these particular arguments in favour of it seem to be just bizarre, and only likely to find traction from people who proceed from fundamentally right-wing values and principles.

derfderf · 17-02-2020 6:41am

Socially, none of our major parties are right wing. Some FF & FG TD's are conservative, but the parties themselves aren't.

Peregrinus · 17-02-2020 7:37am

derfderf wrote: »

Socially, none of our major parties are right wing. Some FF & FG TD's are conservative, but the parties themselves aren't.

I disagree. If you look at a social issue like housing, for example, FF and FG only consider right-of-centre solutions to the housing crisis. On health, both have resisted nationalisation of health services on the scale of the NHS.

Not necessarily saying that more left-of-centre solutions would work better; that's a separate argument. I'm saying that they don't even consider left-of-centre solutions.

Godot. · 17-02-2020 9:25am

derfderf wrote: »

Socially, none of our major parties are right wing. Some FF & FG TD's are conservative, but the parties themselves aren't.

Varadkar FG are essentially Ireland's version of Cameron's One Nation Tories. Socially liberal, economically right.

LuckyLloyd · 17-02-2020 10:24am

I’m personally delighted that we haven’t seen any breakthrough from the fringe right wing nonsense that aims to destabilise our societal conversation while funded from outside the state. No thanks.

derfderf · 17-02-2020 10:26am

Peregrinus wrote: »

I disagree. If you look at a social issue like housing, for example, FF and FG only consider right-of-centre solutions to the housing crisis. On health, both have resisted nationalisation of health services on the scale of the NHS.

Not necessarily saying that more left-of-centre solutions would work better; that's a separate argument. I'm saying that they don't even consider left-of-centre solutions.

That's still based on economics though. They're not ideologically opposed to something like the NHS.

Peregrinus · 17-02-2020 10:31am

I'm not sure that it is based on economics. UK public expenditure on healthcare is lower, per capita, than Ireland's. I don't see any reason to assume that an Irish NHS would cost more than the current setup. But it would challenge more vested interests; in particular the interests of those engaged in the provision of private healthcare. And I think the dominant parties in Ireland have been reluctant to attack what they see as the rights of those people.

ELM327 · 17-02-2020 10:47am

Godot. wrote: »

Varadkar FG are essentially Ireland's version of Cameron's One Nation Tories. Socially liberal, economically right.

+1
And this is why I am a FG voter.

Economically right is a reasoned political viewpoint based on fiscal prudence and low taxation.
Socially right is not, it discriminates against personal freedoms.

I'm quite extreme towards the right in terms of Irish politics, and often feel that there's no party in Ireland that is right enough fiscally but still socially left for my preference. I do think that this is a gap that is missing since the PDs

super_furry · 17-02-2020 10:54am

JoeFritzl wrote: »

It's very easy for people to discount the likes of Gemma O'Doherty, the Nationalist Party and the remaining few entities of Irish society which do indeed express such ideals. But in doing so we are denying our youth of an opportunity to be cultured, to be exposed to all forms of politics as we, for some arrogant reason, deem them not to be trustworthy of handling such a dangerous species of politics. Our vision is diluted by a sea of extreme left-wing politics that the likes of FF/FG juxtapose these parties so much so they seem almost far-right in nature. I can see why people get so scared of far-right politics because it is alien to us. What do people think about this?

Nah.

https://twitter.com/PoppintreePat/status/1227681181174575104?s=20

People reject O'Doherty, Barrett and their far-right politics because this is what it is. Endlessly and incoherently screaming and shrieking at the world.

There's nothing cultured here and there's nothing being repressed. They were there on the ballot forms in the election and the nation, once again, rejected them.

Eric Cartman · 17-02-2020 12:02pm

I think its multi factored

1. The old ways of the Catholic Church being associated with the right
2. The Irish reluctance to be disliked or do anything that causes the rabbling class to complain
3. The power of sob stories Ala Joe Duffy culture
4. The ingrained view from cromwellian days that makes Irish people automatically hate landlords.
5. The governments desire to attract FDI from centre left Europe so must appear centre left to encourage them in.

Eric Cartman · 17-02-2020 12:03pm

super_furry wrote: »

Nah.

https://twitter.com/PoppintreePat/status/1227681181174575104?s=20

People reject O'Doherty, Barrett and their far-right politics because this is what it is. Endlessly and incoherently screaming and shrieking at the world.

There's nothing cultured here and there's nothing being repressed. They were there on the ballot forms in the election and the nation, once again, rejected them.

people reject nut jobs who want 'catholic super states' and a mentally ill woman, 23% voted for Peter Casey, Verona Murphy and Noel Grealish were both elected.

LuckyLloyd · 17-02-2020 12:09pm

Casey got 20% of the vote in the presidential campaign and a wide platform to express his views. He was given another platform in the EU elections, this time performing less well. All the way to receiving a mere 1.5% of the vote this time out.

There was appetite for a shake up of a staid presidential campaign, but maybe the more Casey talked the more voters didn’t buy into what he said? Similarly, we’ve had plenty of conversation in the media about direct provision centres and where they should go, etc - including reporting of incidents of unease on a local level regarding same. And Justin Barrett’s Party et al were right there to capitalise.

Fundamentally the choice is there for the electorate. The conversation is there. They just aren’t wanted. And that’s very much a positive reflection on our societal conversation.

Dyr · 17-02-2020 12:11pm

super_furry wrote: »

Nah.

https://twitter.com/PoppintreePat/status/1227681181174575104?s=20

People reject O'Doherty, Barrett and their far-right politics because this is what it is. Endlessly and incoherently screaming and shrieking at the world.

There's nothing cultured here and there's nothing being repressed. They were there on the ballot forms in the election and the nation, once again, rejected them.

Gemmas may be mental in the head but if shes bitching about 500 student dog boxes beng thrown up acrooss the road from a hotel full of homeless families then no harm.

Fr D Maugire · 17-02-2020 12:12pm

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Casey got 20% of the vote in the presidential campaign and a wide platform to express his views. He was given another platform in the EU elections, this time performing less well. All the way to receiving a mere 1.5% of the vote this time out.

There was appetite for a shake up of a staid presidential campaign, but maybe the more Casey talked the more voters didn’t buy into what he said? Similarly, we’ve had plenty of conversation in the media about direct provision centres and where they should go, etc - including reporting of incidents of unease on a local level regarding same. And Justin Barrett’s Party et al were right there to capitalise.

Fundamentally the choice is there for the electorate. The conversation is there. They just aren’t wanted. And that’s very much a positive reflection on our societal conversation.

Didn't Peter Casey stand as an indepedentent in Donegal for the recent GE and got more or less nada, or am I mixing him up with some other Casey.

LuckyLloyd · 17-02-2020 12:13pm

Fr D Maugire wrote: »

Didn't Peter Casey stand as an indepedentent in Donegal for the recent GE and got more or less nada, or am I mixing him up with some other Casey.

Yep, got 1.5%

JoeFritzl · 17-02-2020 12:22pm

Fr D Maugire wrote: »

Didn't Peter Casey stand as an indepedentent in Donegal for the recent GE and got more or less nada, or am I mixing him up with some other Casey.

Yes he did, although you must appreciate that there are huge geographical aspects to this election and he didn't exactly follow through with a right-wing stance on most other issues. He ran in Dublin and Donegal from what I recall.

You can't discount the fact he came second in the presidential election though; and it reflects the anger/frustration felt by people across Ireland with a lack of representation at Dáil level.

JoeFritzl · 17-02-2020 12:28pm

Eric Cartman wrote: »

people reject nut jobs who want 'catholic super states' and a mentally ill woman, 23% voted for Peter Casey, Verona Murphy and Noel Grealish were both elected.

Exactly, right-wing politics is supported where it exists, but it's being suffocated by this rhetoric that having such an opinion degrades your humanity and it is something to be ashamed of. Nobody is really going to be right-wing because of any other reason than it being their opinion. If you're forcing people to not express their opinion, it leads to real violence/racism. If we all actually spoke about things and had a truly diverse society, we'd never have issues with "xenophobia", "islamaphobia" and racism.

nthclare · 17-02-2020 12:30pm

The irony is Sinn Feinn are left in opposition but in power they'll go right.

If they could sort out our finances and manage the infrastructure better.
Then they'll be more right than Fine Fail or Fine Gael

seamus · 17-02-2020 12:40pm

JoeFritzl wrote: »

You can't discount the fact he came second in the presidential election though; and it reflects the anger/frustration felt by people across Ireland with a lack of representation at Dáil level.

Well you can really. Since it's an entirely different kind of election, and people know that.

People, Irish people in particular, Given a vote on matters that people don't consider of much importance, they will pick the joke or mem option given half a chance. Look at the number of times Irish rebels songs have topped a BBC online poll, or the infamous Boaty McBoatface event.

"Could you imagine yer man as president?".

Lots of people latched onto Casey's presidential figures as being proof that there was an underlying element in Irish society who wanted travellers bet into the ground and immigrants sent away on the next boat.

When it came to casting votes in areas where Casey might have actually had some power, his vote evaporated.

Irish people are much more discerning and clever voters than we give ourselves credit for, helped a lot by the fairness of the PR-STV system.

You insistence that Irish people should be force-fed far-right politicians has a very authoritarian slant to it. Unsurprisingly. "If they knew what was best for them, they'd bring in the far right".

If Irish people wanted far-right candidates, they'd vote for them. The fact that they don't tells us that there's no desire for them, so the idea that "we are denying our youth of an opportunity to be cultured" is pure authoritarianism. The notion that "I know best, everyone just needs to agree with me".

Culturally I don't see the far-right getting a foothold here. Our country was founded out of centuries of oppression by jackboot monarchy, and we thrust ourselves headfirst into jackboot theocracy.
The cultural memory alone will be enough to keep them out for a century.

nthclare · 17-02-2020 12:41pm

seamus wrote: »

Well you can really. Since it's an entirely different kind of election, and people know that.

People, Irish people in particular, Given a vote on matters that people don't consider of much importance, they will pick the joke or mem option given half a chance. Look at the number of times Irish rebels songs have topped a BBC online poll, or the infamous Boaty McBoatface event.

"Could you imagine yer man as president?".

Lots of people latched onto Casey's presidential figures as being proof that there was an underlying element in Irish society who wanted travellers bet into the ground and immigrants sent away on the next boat.

When it came to casting votes in areas where Casey might have actually had some power, his vote evaporated.

You insistence that Irish people should be force-fed far-right politicians has a very authoritarian slant to it. Unsurprisingly. "If they knew what was best for them, they'd bring in the far right".

If Irish people wanted far-right candidates, they'd vote for them. The fact that they don't tells us that there's no desire for them, so the idea that "we are denying our youth of an opportunity to be cultured" is pure authoritarianism. The notion that "I know best, everyone just needs to agree with me".

Culturally I don't see the far-right getting a foothold here. Our country was founded out of centuries of oppression by jackboot monarchy, and we thrust ourselves headfirst into jackboot theocracy.
The cultural memory alone will be enough to keep them out for a century.

Any chance you could explain this in layman's terms.

seamus · 17-02-2020 12:45pm

nthclare wrote: »

Any chance you could explain this in layman's terms.

OK. Casey was a joke candidate. He never had any real support. He was the "Boaty McBoatface" of the Presidential Election.

Ireland was run by the far-right in the UK for centuries and then for the first 40-odd years as a free republic, was run by the religious far-right. And a lot of harm was done by them.

The Irish won't forget that for at least five generations. We are allergic to authoritarians.

JoeFritzl · 17-02-2020 12:54pm

seamus wrote: »

Well you can really. Since it's an entirely different kind of election, and people know that.

People, Irish people in particular, Given a vote on matters that people don't consider of much importance, they will pick the joke or mem option given half a chance. Look at the number of times Irish rebels songs have topped a BBC online poll, or the infamous Boaty McBoatface event.

"Could you imagine yer man as president?".

Lots of people latched onto Casey's presidential figures as being proof that there was an underlying element in Irish society who wanted travellers bet into the ground and immigrants sent away on the next boat.

When it came to casting votes in areas where Casey might have actually had some power, his vote evaporated.

Irish people are much more discerning and clever voters than we give ourselves credit for, helped a lot by the fairness of the PR-STV system.

You insistence that Irish people should be force-fed far-right politicians has a very authoritarian slant to it. Unsurprisingly. "If they knew what was best for them, they'd bring in the far right".

If Irish people wanted far-right candidates, they'd vote for them. The fact that they don't tells us that there's no desire for them, so the idea that "we are denying our youth of an opportunity to be cultured" is pure authoritarianism. The notion that "I know best, everyone just needs to agree with me".

Culturally I don't see the far-right getting a foothold here. Our country was founded out of centuries of oppression by jackboot monarchy, and we thrust ourselves headfirst into jackboot theocracy.
The cultural memory alone will be enough to keep them out for a century.

I wholly disagree. I think the presidential election is the closest you will get to a true reflection of the Irish public's opinion. GE's are tragic; there's a lack of representation for everyone and a massive lack of quality options. 90% of the candidates in my area promise the same thing. People vote for the best candidate on a local level in the GE, and never think about party politics, because their vote probably won't make a different to the outcome of the local election, and certainly won't make a difference to the outcome of the general election and who becomes Taoiseach.

The PE is great, everyone votes on the same candidates, they all get a level playing field and people are voting for the person, not the party. President can't do anything but speak, so people choose the alternative voice that they believe will have a positive impact on society.

JoeFritzl · 17-02-2020 1:02pm

seamus wrote: »

OK. Casey was a joke candidate. He never had any real support. He was the "Boaty McBoatface" of the Presidential Election.

Ireland was run by the far-right in the UK for centuries and then for the first 40-odd years as a free republic, was run by the religious far-right. And a lot of harm was done by them.

The Irish won't forget that for at least five generations. We are allergic to authoritarians.

I think this is the problem. You brand a specific part of politics as Nazi or British and then claim that people are unpatriotic for having such an opinion.

You're obviously ignoring the fashion in which this state was created - By far right Irish nationalists. Fine Gael was previously Cumman na nGael, lead by Eoin O'Duffy, the founder of Fine Gael. He was somewhat a Nazi, and very right wing.

Countless other examples exist of far-right Irish nationalism which existed at the time this state was created, and completely blows your theory out of the water that the Irish ever resented such politics, when they actually elected O'Duffy's party to lead the country.

seamus · 17-02-2020 1:52pm

A lot of projection there Joe, me thinks.

Not only did I not even allude to Nazis or patriotism, I also explicitly mentioned that the far-right ran the country at the creation of the state. Which is why they're nowhere to be seen now.

LuckyLloyd · 17-02-2020 2:29pm

JoeFritzl wrote: »

I wholly disagree. I think the presidential election is the closest you will get to a true reflection of the Irish public's opinion. GE's are tragic; there's a lack of representation for everyone and a massive lack of quality options. 90% of the candidates in my area promise the same thing. People vote for the best candidate on a local level in the GE, and never think about party politics, because their vote probably won't make a different to the outcome of the local election, and certainly won't make a difference to the outcome of the general election and who becomes Taoiseach.

Really amazing that you can write the above, after we’ve just had an election where unknown SF candidates who couldn’t get a local council seat romped home to top the poll in numerous constituencies due to their parties manifesto and leader. Like this just happened two weeks ago.

Every sentence above is wrong, pretty much. Lack of representation? It’s a prtv system that gives Dail seats to every party or candidate with a base of support.

Your issue is that the candidates you want (Casey, O’Doherty, National Party, IFP) don’t have the requisite level of support. The exit poll also demonstrated that only a mere 1% of the electorate care about your key issue in the election. That is not the fault of the system or anything else. People know what your politics is about, it just doesn’t represent 98%+ of them.

Morzadec · 17-02-2020 3:41pm

Surprised another reason (as to the lack of a far right in Ireland) which hasn't been mentioned, which is that Far-right parties are usually nationalist parties, and (if we're talking about Europe), this goes hand in hand with imperialism and a sense of national superiority.

Due to our former status as a colony, the opposite is true here - nationalism has historically been from the standpoint of being oppressed as a colony and therefore more so left wing in nature (or at least highly aware of the type of thinking that says one race/country is superior to another, as Ireland was a victim of this). Our nationalism has historically been centred on the pursuit of equality, not of superiority.

So Sinn Fein (a left wing party) still get this nationalist vote. Sinn Fein historically have received their core support from the border counties and working class Dublin communities. I would guess that a big reason for this support is still to do with nationalism.

Far right parties like the National Party will struggle to make in-roads in these areas while Sinn Fein are still seen as the nationalist party, the anti-Brit party, the party of the RA etc...

Until nationalism in Ireland predominantly moves away from the United Ireland/Brit-bashing angle, and more towards the anti-immigration angle, the far right won't take hold.

It could happen though some day. Particularly if Sinn Fein got into power and made themselves unpopular, it's possible that the nationalist vote could shift towards these parties. Or likewise, if in the future a United Ireland does happen and if the transition is smooth, it's possible that this issue becomes less from-and-centre in the national psyche and Irish nationalism moves more so towards the right like it does in other countries

seamus · 17-02-2020 4:16pm

^^ This is a good point.

Irish nationalism comes from a place where the Irish were taught to believe that they were substandard and incapable of self-governance. Irish nationalism is effectively the belief that Irish have the ability and the right to self-governance within Ireland.

Whereas other forms of nationalism are typically rooted in the supremacy of ones nationality over all others.

kowloon · 17-02-2020 5:15pm

JoeFritzl wrote: »

But in doing so we are denying our youth of an opportunity to be cultured, to be exposed to all forms of politics as we, for some arrogant reason, deem them not to be trustworthy of handling such a dangerous species of politics.

Aren't the likes of the National Party against people being exposed to different cultures?

fly_agaric · 17-02-2020 9:39pm

I'm uncharitable but I do wonder if alot of the moaning about the lack of a "real" Irish right wing option I've read here (and in other political threads) comes from frustrated immigrants...sorry expats.
There's no "proper" one in Ireland like the Tories or (God forbid) the "GOP" they would plump for back home, one that would really, really stick it to the "unproductive" members of society and clamp down on immigrants (the wrong'uns, not good ones like them that improve the native peasant stock).
As a result they feel very disenfranchised and isolated politically. Hope it continues to be the case.

derfderf · 17-02-2020 10:43pm

Peregrinus wrote: »

I'm not sure that it is based on economics. UK public expenditure on healthcare is lower, per capita, than Ireland's. I don't see any reason to assume that an Irish NHS would cost more than the current setup. But it would challenge more vested interests; in particular the interests of those engaged in the provision of private healthcare. And I think the dominant parties in Ireland have been reluctant to attack what they see as the rights of those people.

I would have thought the excess cost of Irish healthcare is due to the stranglehold of the unions.

fly_agaric · 17-02-2020 11:45pm

JoeFritzl wrote: »

Yes he did, although you must appreciate that there are huge geographical aspects to this election and he didn't exactly follow through with a right-wing stance on most other issues. He ran in Dublin and Donegal from what I recall.

I don't know if pulling a stunt like that (name down in 2 constituencies) + treating it as a sort of a joke was a good look.
I know there maybe isn't the same community closeness in Dublin or expectations that a candidate must have some deep attachment to the constituency but it was still insulting to be chancing your arm like that IMO.

JoeFritzl wrote: »

You can't discount the fact he came second in the presidential election though; and it reflects the anger/frustration felt by people across Ireland with a lack of representation at Dáil level.

I think it may reflect the fact that the presidential election isn't very important and the field was thin due to expectation Higgins would run away with it.
Caseys' comments and all the media noise generated around him were a geegaw that attracted floating voters who did not like the incumbent.

JoeFritzl · 18-02-2020 2:34am

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Really amazing that you can write the above, after we’ve just had an election where unknown SF candidates who couldn’t get a local council seat romped home to top the poll in numerous constituencies due to their parties manifesto and leader. Like this just happened two weeks ago.

Every sentence above is wrong, pretty much. Lack of representation? It’s a prtv system that gives Dail seats to every party or candidate with a base of support.

Your issue is that the candidates you want (Casey, O’Doherty, National Party, IFP) don’t have the requisite level of support. The exit poll also demonstrated that only a mere 1% of the electorate care about your key issue in the election. That is not the fault of the system or anything else. People know what your politics is about, it just doesn’t represent 98%+ of them.

I think exactly what you're arguing for is why people are annoyed with Sinn Féin.

"There is a mandate for change, if SF don't get in then it's not democracy!"

Despite FF/FG getting more votes than SF. If you're discounting other people's opinions then you're just blatantly ignorant.

JoeFritzl · 18-02-2020 2:36am

fly_agaric wrote: »

I'm uncharitable but I do wonder if alot of the moaning about the lack of a "real" Irish right wing option I've read here (and in other political threads) comes from frustrated immigrants...sorry expats.
There's no "proper" one in Ireland like the Tories or (God forbid) the "GOP" they would plump for back home, one that would really, really stick it to the "unproductive" members of society and clamp down on immigrants (the wrong'uns, not good ones like them that improve the native peasant stock).
As a result they feel very disenfranchised and isolated politically. Hope it continues to be the case.

I don't hope this continues. At a time where people are claiming SF voters aren't getting represented at gov level, surely it's even more scandalous that right wing voters are completely under represented. To even claim that the likes of Gemma O'Doherty prove there's no appetite is ridiculous since she doesn't represent 99% of people on the far-right. We are blinded to the realities here; most of our right wing candidates suck, and they further cement this notion in people's minds that we don't deserve any form of representation ever. That's not democratic.

JoeFritzl · 18-02-2020 2:38am

kowloon wrote: »

Aren't the likes of the National Party against people being exposed to different cultures?

Not sure what your point is. I'm not a member of this party and I don't stand by what they say but they're entitled to their free speech and it's great to see them express it. I only wish more people did so and then I might feel like there are some people on the right who truly represent MY opinion.

Peregrinus · 18-02-2020 2:56am

JoeFritzl wrote: »

I don't hope this continues. At a time where people are claiming SF voters aren't getting represented at gov level, surely it's even more scandalous that right wing voters are completely under represented. To even claim that the likes of Gemma O'Doherty prove there's no appetite is ridiculous since she doesn't represent 99% of people on the far-right. We are blinded to the realities here; most of our right wing candidates suck, and they further cement this notion in people's minds that we don't deserve any form of representation ever. That's not democratic.

Your views are detached from reality, your policies are mad, your candidates are lousy and you end up with negligible electoral success. How is that "not democratic"? Surely it's the outcome you'd expect in a healthy, functioning democracy?

LuckyLloyd · 18-02-2020 8:08am

JoeFritzl wrote: »

I don't hope this continues. At a time where people are claiming SF voters aren't getting represented at gov level, surely it's even more scandalous that right wing voters are completely under represented. To even claim that the likes of Gemma O'Doherty prove there's no appetite is ridiculous since she doesn't represent 99% of people on the far-right. We are blinded to the realities here; most of our right wing candidates suck, and they further cement this notion in people's minds that we don't deserve any form of representation ever. That's not democratic.

Then stand, as Bowman would have said to this type of nonsense.

The election results indicate there are a mere ~20k voters that think like you. If you feel the parties and politicians that are there are lacking, stand yourself or form a new party. Get the right type of focus on “mass” immigration and destabilising our democracy and you’ll probably garner plenty of funding from abroad!

fergus1001 · 18-02-2020 8:15am

is this another oh my god the shinners are coming thread ?

18-02-2020 8:21am

fergus1001 wrote: »

is this another oh my god the shinners are coming thread ?

Nope it's a why don't people vote for scrotes like Justin Barrett thread.

Despite the fact that they and what they stand for are known to the public, both through traditional media, social media and their shills on here, we're not cultured enough to vote for them.

JoeFritzl · 18-02-2020 3:00pm

DubInMeath wrote: »

Nope it's a why don't people vote for scrotes like Justin Barrett thread.

Despite the fact that they and what they stand for are known to the public, both through traditional media, social media and their shills on here, we're not cultured enough to vote for them.

No we discount their opinions because of prejudice, the exact same thing we accuse them of.

If you don't see the irony then I'm surprised.

Peregrinus · 18-02-2020 3:11pm

JoeFritzl wrote: »

No we discount their opinions because of prejudice, the exact same thing we accuse them of.

If you don't see the irony then I'm surprised.

We discount their opinions because (a) no opinion has a right to be taken seriously without being scrutinised, and (b) their opinions do not stand up to scrutiny.

That's not "prejudice", Joe.

18-02-2020 3:13pm

JoeFritzl wrote: »

No we discount their opinions because of prejudice, the exact same thing we accuse them of.

If you don't see the irony then I'm surprised.

Nope, a scrote is a scrote such as Justin Barrett as identified by what they say and stand for, and it's well documented.

The irony of using the word prejudice when talking about him and similar political fellow travelers is funny however, given that this is a main pillar of what ye stand for.

nkl12xtw5goz70 · 18-02-2020 4:15pm

derfderf wrote: »

Socially, none of our major parties are right wing. Some FF & FG TD's are conservative, but the parties themselves aren't.

It mystifies me how anyone can insist that either FG or FF is "right-wing."

FF presided over the biggest expansion of the public sector and the welfare state in the history of the country. FG continued to preside over a €20 billion welfare state, hitting workers earning over €36k with payroll taxes exceeding a marginal rate of 50% and turning the "temporary" Universal Social Charge into a permanent feature. Ireland's capital gains tax regime is one of the most punitive in the world.

All parties appease the public-sector unions with promises of "pay restoration" (i.e., bringing public-sector pay back to the unsustainably dizzying heights of 2008). Public-sector reform was a short-lived experiment that ended with government capitulation in the Croke Park Agreement. The health system is a dysfunctional mess because of the unions protecting too many middle management paper-pushers, but no politician has the backbone to do anything about it. Even RTE is getting bailed out so they can continue paying lavish salaries to their "stars."

None of this is exactly Thatcherite politics, or even close.

In social terms, all the major parties have supported the introduction of same-sex marriage, abortion on demand, and more liberal divorce laws. There's very little debate to be had on social issues anymore because politicians are tripping over one another to show how progressive they are.

I would characterize Irish politics as a spectrum from the center-left (FG/FF) to the far-left (SF/PBP) with debate largely hinging on how much taxing, spending, and regulating a government can do without driving the economy off the edge of a cliff. But there's no debate about shrinking the size of the state, meaningfully lowering taxes, wresting control of our public services back from the unions, and meaningfully reducing welfare dependency — all things a genuine right-wing party would be talking about.

JoeFritzl · 18-02-2020 4:42pm

Ellie Repulsive Scowl wrote: »

It mystifies me how anyone can insist that either FG or FF is "right-wing."

FF presided over the biggest expansion of the public sector and the welfare state in the history of the country. FG continued to preside over a €20 billion welfare state, hitting workers earning over €36k with payroll taxes exceeding a marginal rate of 50% and turning the "temporary" Universal Social Charge into a permanent feature. Ireland's capital gains tax regime is one of the most punitive in the world.

All parties appease the public-sector unions with promises of "pay restoration" (i.e., bringing public-sector pay back to the unsustainably dizzying heights of 2008). Public-sector reform was a short-lived experiment that ended with government capitulation in the Croke Park Agreement. The health system is a dysfunctional mess because of the unions protecting too many middle management paper-pushers, but no politician has the backbone to do anything about it. Even RTE is getting bailed out so they can continue paying lavish salaries to their "stars."

None of this is exactly Thatcherite politics, or even close.

In social terms, all the major parties have supported the introduction of same-sex marriage, abortion on demand, and more liberal divorce laws. There's very little debate to be had on social issues anymore because politicians are tripping over one another to show how progressive they are.

I would characterize Irish politics as a spectrum from the center-left (FG/FF) to the far-left (SF/PBP) with debate largely hinging on how much taxing, spending, and regulating a government can do without driving the economy off the edge of a cliff. But there's no debate about shrinking the size of the state, meaningfully lowering taxes, wresting control of our public services back from the unions, and meaningfully reducing welfare dependency — all things a genuine right-wing party would be talking about.

They're not even centre-right. They're very much center, and on social issues they are a left-wing party (FG in particular). Economically they might be centre-right, but certainly not "conservative".

Chips Lovell · 18-02-2020 5:06pm

The standard narrative around why we don't have an obvious left-right divide is that, around the time politics in other countries was coalescing around moderate left and right wing parties, we were still stuck in civil war politics.

There is a large element of truth to that, but it's not the whole truth either. Because, very quickly Fine Gael and Fianna Fail established identities that went beyond their side in the civil war. Fine Gael was the middle class party of professionals, business owners, and big landowners. Fianna Fail was the working man and small farmer's party. It ended up implementing a lot of the policies that socialist parties in other European countries would have introduced, such as clearing the slums of Dublin and building social housing, socialised healthcare, free education etc. It basically colonised a lot of the territory that a socialist party would ordinarily have occupied, leaving Labour very much Dublin and trade-union based.

Now, if you can call it socialism, it was a very Irish kind of socialism because, while in other countries, the church may have been aligned with the right, here it's strongest ally was Fianna Fail. Ditto with nationalism, usually the territory of the right.

Fianna Fail had pivoted again by the 1980s and became much more aligned with big business but at that stage, the two party divide had largely set in the national psyche. There was an potential realignment on the cards in 2011 when it looked like Fianna Fail could get wiped out but they managed to cling on just enough to rebuild.

We've a few moderately socialist parties such as Labour, SD and the Greens and a few faux-socialists such as Sinn Fein and PBP, but the left has never really taken off here.

The Left-Oriented Pendulum Of Irish Politics

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