Time to call out the horse racing industry

CrankyHaus · 02-04-2020 12:14pm

Deleted User wrote: »

The money racing gets from the government comes from a levy on betting and is only a fraction of the billions the racing industry is worth to the economy.

That's a bit dishonest though. Levies on vices are normal because of the harm they cause, which we end up paying for elsewhere, eg in health, welfare and justice expenditure. Pretending that the taxpayer's money going to horseracing isn't really taxpayer's money because it comes from a levy on betting would be like Guinness getting the state to fund beer festivals and saying it's not really state expenditure because we levy sales of alcohol.

Montage of Feck · 02-04-2020 12:32pm

Only really started the thread as a bit of a piss take and cheeky sly dig at insufferable "punters". But for me this thread has brought to light some serious questions of the industry.

The Tetrarch · 02-04-2020 1:10pm

Much of the thread is about hearing someone lost a bet on a horse race, and as a result their life was ruined.
The rest of the thread is about the cruelty of horses running about ten races in their lives taking about 15 minutes in total, and being cruelly whipped by small people with a foam padded wand.

Worse things have happened.

02-04-2020 1:15pm

The Tetrarch wrote: »

Much of the thread is about hearing someone lost a bet on a horse race, and as a result their life was ruined.
The rest of the thread is about the cruelty of horses running about ten races in their lives taking about 15 minutes in total, and being cruelly whipped by small people with a foam padded wand.

Worse things have happened.

Some people like being cruelly whipped with a foam padded wand.......

Randy Archer · 02-04-2020 3:24pm

dreamers75 wrote: »

Thats literally missing the point by a few hundred furlongs.

I make it simples if you banned betting on sports, Horse racing would die instantly, all those other sports would survive.

I find it odd HRI gets a stupid amount of money from the goverment yet other sports employ far more people get **** all.

Simples lol, Your argument went way out into the countryside and ain’t coming back

Die instantly ? Again, as pointed out multiple times by another poster, there’s no gambling permitted in the UAE and they are pretty tight with their internet if you try to be smart by doing online gambling while at their race track . Racing drives cities like Dubai

As for the laughable notion about gambling. How does one ban that ? Impossible , just as it’s impossible to ban drugs . You think the rich people, who can spend millions on horses and who have done so this the history of time are going to worry about legalities when they bet that their horse would beat the horse of the other rich dude

The bookies contribute peanuts in comparison to what they get out of horse racing .moreover, horse racing is NO LONGER THEIR MAIN SOURCE OF INCOME ! Despite the over saturation of races during the week . They got more from FOOTBALL

That Ban includes the lottery too

And now for the utter behind Idiotic claim that there are other sports that employ more people. Good luck back that up with credible facts, or any facts

Employ far more people ? &#55357;&#56834;

The Tetrarch · 02-04-2020 7:24pm

I'm going to call out the racing toffs who went to Cheltenham and "brought back cononavirus".
The Cheltenham race meeting ended on 13th March, and I assume Irish racegoers came back that evening or the following day.
By 13th March Ireland had 90 coronavirus cases.
Below are the first 20 cases, showing the virus was in Ireland, probably introduced by people returning from skiing holidays.

Case Announced Origin
1 29-Feb-20 Northern Italy
2 3-Mar-20 Northern Italy
3 4-Mar-20 Northern Italy
4 4-Mar-20 Northern Italy
5 4-Mar-20 Northern Italy
6 4-Mar-20 Northern Italy
7 5-Mar-20 Unknown
8–11 5-Mar-20 Northern Italy
12–13 5-Mar-20 Case(s) in West of country
14 6-Mar-20 Northern Italy
15 6-Mar-20 Case(s) in West of country
16 6-Mar-20 Case 7
17 6-Mar-20 Unknown
18 6-Mar-20 Northern Italy
19 7-Mar-20 Northern Italy
20 7-Mar-20 Ireland

Perhaps Cheltenham is in northern Italy, and racegoers time-travelled backwards one week.
Given the level of knowledge of horse racing by a few on this thread that might fit in with their theories.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_coronavirus_pandemic_in_the_Republic_of_Ireland

gozunda · 02-04-2020 8:00pm

Gretas Gonna Get Ya! wrote: »

I know plenty about horses.

I was referring to their temperment, not their physical capabilities. The reason it's even possible to saddle a horse, is because they're quite gentle by nature relative to their size and strength. They have been exploited and turned into slaves, because of this natural timidness.

You don't need to be involved with the horse racing or equestrian industry etc, to have knowledge on horses. Many people make this mistake.

Putting a saddle on any animal, and riding around on its back is cruelty... simple as that. Nothing anyone has ever said to me over the years, has ever managed to convince me otherwise... if you did this to any other animal, it would be a very clear act of cruelty. And most would call it out as such... but for some reason it's okay to do it to horses?

Nope, it's not okay!

You evidently know fek all about horses.

I presume from the above bolded bit - you've developed your deep insight of horses from the back of a cornflakes package or similar trustworthy sources.

If a horse does not want to be ridden - no power on this earth will change that.

Horses can be naturally aggressive, timid or down right lunatics. Bit like any other animal.

Your imaginations and sugar coating of what you believe horses to be is at best hilarious and at worst - little better than the usual rantings of the deranged extreme animal rights crowd who funnily enough would like to see all domestic animals eradicated.

And no thats not ok ..

Feisar · 02-04-2020 8:09pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Some people like being cruelly whipped with a foam padded wand.......

I took a few lashes from a riding crop one time, fuppin' hurt!

Randy Archer · 02-04-2020 10:13pm

gozunda wrote: »

You evidently know fek all about horses.

I presume from the above bolded bit - you've developed your deep insight of horses from the back of a cornflakes package or similar trustworthy sources.

If a horse does not want to be ridden - no power on this earth will change that.

Horses can be naturally aggressive, timid or down right lunatics. Bit like any other animal.

Your imaginations and sugar coating of what you believe horses to be is at best hilarious and at worst - little better than the usual rantings of the deranged extreme animal rights crowd who funnily enough would like to see all domestic animals eradicated.

And no thats not ok ..

Lol, speaking of horses who had no interest of running, remember Gordon Elliott’s Supreme Novice winner a few years ago, Jack Kennedy rode him that Cheltenham and over in near Bettystown,(the beach races up in Louth /Dublin ) almost ever other race, if he wasn’t interested in running, no one was going to make him, and thus, the racing authorities banned him from running thereafter

gozunda · 03-04-2020 12:43am

Randy Archer wrote: »

Lol, speaking of horses who had no interest of running, remember Gordon Elliott’s Supreme Novice winner a few years ago, Jack Kennedy rode him that Cheltenham and over in near Bettystown,(the beach races up in Louth /Dublin ) almost ever other race, if he wasn’t interested in running, no one was going to make him, and thus, the racing authorities banned him from running thereafter

I do indeed. Though I've known several horses which would have given Labaik a run for the money in the non running sweepstakes :pac: All good horses funnily enough ...

jimgoose · 03-04-2020 10:13am

Granted the Cheltenham shambles was a SNAFU, but Irish thoroughbreds are respected and desired all over the world, particularly those portions of the world that have serious money. The bloodstock industry is huge. And regarding the old "animal cruelty" chestnut, the cruelty would be in not allowing such horses to run.

CrankyHaus · 03-04-2020 10:29am

jimgoose wrote: »

Granted the Cheltenham shambles was a SNAFU, but Irish thoroughbreds are respected and desired all over the world, particularly those portions of the world that have serious money. The bloodstock industry is huge. And regarding the old "animal cruelty" chestnut, the cruelty would be in not allowing such horses to run.

If it's such a world-beater why does it need taxpayer support?

jimgoose · 03-04-2020 10:33am

CrankyHaus wrote: »

If it's such a world-beater why does it need taxpayer support?

To give the little guy a bit of encouragement - it makes for more and better racing and helps counter the recent trend of every decent race turning into the Mick & Willie Show, with support from Gordon Eliot. And of course the industry has a lot of rather, shall we say, influential people involved.

Such an approach is not unheard-of. F1 Valley in Surrey gets fairly generous treatment by HMRC, I believe.

CrankyHaus · 03-04-2020 10:41am

jimgoose wrote: »

To give the little guy a bit of encouragement - it makes for more and better racing and helps counter the recent trend of every decent race turning into the Mick & Willie Show, with support from Gordon Eliot. And of course the industry has a lot of rather, shall we say, influential people involved.

SUch an approach is not unheard-of. F1 Valley in Surrey gets fairly generous treatment by HMRC, I believe.

Sorry, I don't think that's a strong case for allocating scarce public money to a pastime for millionaires (the "little guys" you refer to) and billionaires, before we even consider the harm caused by the gambling that's baked-in to the sport.

jimgoose · 03-04-2020 10:42am

CrankyHaus wrote: »

Sorry, I don't think that's a strong case for allocating scarce public money to a pastime for millionaires (the "little guys" you refer to) and billionaires, before we even consider the harm caused by the gambling that's baked-in to the sport.

You should write a strongly-worded letter to the Times.

The Tetrarch · 03-04-2020 10:45am

CrankyHaus wrote: »

Sorry, I don't think that's a strong case for allocating scarce public money to a pastime for millionaires (the "little guys" you refer to) and billionaires, before we even consider the harm caused by the gambling that's baked-in to the sport.

Betting revenue going into the government and government funding going out to horse racing and other equestrian sports are about equal.
You could eliminate all equestrian activity, and you would eliminate the revenue and the costs, and the employment.
Brilliant.

jimgoose · 03-04-2020 10:47am

The Tetrarch wrote: »

Betting revenue going into the government and government funding going out to horse racing and other equestrian sports are about equal.
You could eliminate all equestrian activity, and you would eliminate the revenue and the costs, and the employment.
Brilliant.

Yes, but it would also put an end to all these billionaire toffs swanning around in Range Rovers with tweed jackets and Fedoras on 'em, annoying the poor wee fella, hi! :pac:

Fann Linn · 03-04-2020 10:49am

CrankyHaus wrote: »

If it's such a world-beater why does it need taxpayer support?

To keep it on top.
The same reason for giving Irish rowers grants.

jimgoose · 03-04-2020 10:51am

Fann Linn wrote: »

To keep it on top.
The same reason for giving Irish rowers grants.

Precisely. Success breeds success, and money makes money. Birds of a feather.

CrankyHaus · 03-04-2020 11:09am

jimgoose wrote: »

You should write a strongly-worded letter to the Times.

Or just discuss it here since it is a discussion site.

The horsey set don't particularly annoy me. I say fair play if they can make Ireland among the best in this sector. I just don't see any need for the taxpayer to support them. I concede that there may have been a need when these supports were brought in and that they helped the industry get to where it is now.

Nobody in this thread has advanced a compelling argument for taxpayers money to continue to support horseracing; instead it's just been page after page of sneering non-sequitars.

jimgoose · 03-04-2020 11:15am

CrankyHaus wrote: »

Or just discuss it here since it is a discussion site.

The horsey set don't particularly annoy me. I say fair play if they can make Ireland among the best in this sector. I just don't see any need for the taxpayer to support them. I concede that there may have been a need when these supports were brought in and that they helped the industry get to where it is now.

Nobody in this thread has advanced a compelling argument for taxpayers money to continue to support horseracing; instead it's just been page after page of sneering non-sequitars.

I did. The fact that it doesn't compel you is unfortunate but ultimately neither here nor there. Several industries, including some that generate almighty amounts of profit, benefit from Exchequer revenue, be it via such intermediaries as the IDA or more directly through the tax code.

Backstreet Moyes · 03-04-2020 11:25am

Randy Archer wrote: »

Lol, speaking of horses who had no interest of running, remember Gordon Elliott’s Supreme Novice winner a few years ago, Jack Kennedy rode him that Cheltenham and over in near Bettystown,(the beach races up in Louth /Dublin ) almost ever other race, if he wasn’t interested in running, no one was going to make him, and thus, the racing authorities banned him from running thereafter

A mad horse he was not actually banned by the racing authorities

He was seized by CAB as the owners allegedly purchased him with money from criminal activities

Pity he could have been a great horse

The Tetrarch · 03-04-2020 12:00pm

CrankyHaus wrote: »

Or just discuss it here since it is a discussion site.
The horsey set don't particularly annoy me. I say fair play if they can make Ireland among the best in this sector. I just don't see any need for the taxpayer to support them. I concede that there may have been a need when these supports were brought in and that they helped the industry get to where it is now.
Nobody in this thread has advanced a compelling argument for taxpayers money to continue to support horseracing; instead it's just been page after page of sneering non-sequitars.

It is amazing how you can put up posts, have opinions, and lecture people without posting any numbers in support.

I found it a little difficult to get government figures but found these
Minister's Budget Expenditure estimates 2020
C.7 - HORSE AND GREYHOUND RACING FUND 000’s
Current 70,856; Capital 13,144; Total 84,000

Horse Racing Ireland
Perhaps the most significant figure for 2019 however was the fact that, following a series of changes in betting tax arrangements, off course betting duty receipts collected by the government in 2019 amounted to €95m.

Your turn.

Randy Archer · 03-04-2020 12:38pm

CrankyHaus wrote: »

Sorry, I don't think that's a strong case for allocating scarce public money to a pastime for millionaires (the "little guys" you refer to) and billionaires, before we even consider the harm caused by the gambling that's baked-in to the sport.

Well, the actual contribution of racing, To the economy ,be it flat or national most certainly does justify it ! No other sport makes such a contribution to the economy. It pays for itself as far as the tax payer is concerned

What other sport would have the Department of Agriculture Or any other State Department, insist that all things equine sport remains within their portfolio ie a good news story generator

Thankfully ,we can’t as a society, put a haunt to our day to day activities ,just because of a small number of weak will people who have zero control of themselves and only bet on what they can afford

Again, for the multiple time, and pointed out by others, the bookies are NOT making their main money from horse racing anymore. They generate billions each weekend from FOOTBALL . Horse racing has nothing to do with the slot machines in the shops or the online betting games that book makers have on their online platform .

Booze is still present in sport sponsorship , just about of course, and we all know the destructive role that can play

Randy Archer · 03-04-2020 12:43pm

Nuts102 wrote: »

A mad horse he was not actually banned by the racing authorities

He was seized by CAB as the owners allegedly purchased him with money from criminal activities

Pity he could have been a great horse

He was effectively banned Because of his record for refusing to run in races .

The CAB issues has no relevancy whatsoever, he could have been sold by CAB at any of the auction ring had he not being banned from racing . Another owner would have happily bought such a talented horse if he showed a willingness to run

gozunda · 03-04-2020 12:52pm

jimgoose wrote: »

Yes, but it would also put an end to all these billionaire toffs swanning around in Range Rovers with tweed jackets and Fedoras on 'em, annoying the poor wee fella, hi! :pac:

Nothing like a bit of uniformed ignorance and class hatred is there?

The majority of those involved in horse racing from jockeys to to your average trainer are not "billionaire toffs swanning around in Range Rovers with tweed jackets and Fedoras

Do such individuals exist? Yes they do but they do not make up the majority of people involved in the sport.

Amazing the numbers out there who believe any one with a horse is a toff and a millionaire. Amazing but complete bollox.

Randy Archer · 03-04-2020 12:59pm

gozunda wrote: »

Nothing like a bit of uniformed ignorance and class hatred is there?

The majority of those involved in horse racing from jockeys to to your average trainer are not "billionaire toffs swanning around in Range Rovers with tweed jackets and Fedoras

Do such individuals exist? Yes they do but they do not make up the majority of people involved in the sport.

Amazing the numbers out there who believe any one with a horse is a toff and a millionaire. Amazing but complete bollox.

I detect sarcasm from Jim there

cj maxx · 03-04-2020 1:00pm

The ONLY reason horse racing is an ' industry' is gambling.
Gambling is the modern opiate of the people and is fcucking pushed on people through ads, sponsorship. Fcuk it.

jimgoose · 03-04-2020 1:49pm

gozunda wrote: »

Nothing like a bit of uniformed ignorance and class hatred is there?

The majority of those involved in horse racing from jockeys to to your average trainer are not "billionaire toffs swanning around in Range Rovers with tweed jackets and Fedoras

Do such individuals exist? Yes they do but they do not make up the majority of people involved in the sport.

Amazing the numbers out there who believe any one with a horse is a toff and a millionaire. Amazing but complete bollox.

Chief, my better half breeds them and is a former point-to-point pilot. I just drive the truck and shovel shit. :pac:

Randy Archer wrote: »

I detect sarcasm from Jim there

Emm, quite!

The Tetrarch · 03-04-2020 2:28pm

cj maxx wrote: »

The ONLY reason horse racing is an ' industry' is gambling.
Gambling is the modern opiate of the people and is fcucking pushed on people through ads, sponsorship. Fcuk it.

Again a post without a fact.
Government tax take from betting Euro 95,000,000.
Population of Ireland 4,830,000
Average betting tax paid per baby (or adult) Euro 19.67 a year. or 5.4 cent a day.
A nation of problem gamblers? Sounds nice on TV. I am outraged.

gozunda · 03-04-2020 2:29pm

jimgoose wrote: »

Chief, my better half breeds them and is a former point-to-point pilot. I just drive the truck and shovel shit. :pac:

Emm, quite!

Fair enough. :pac:

You forgot your sarcasm emoji!

Randy Archer · 03-04-2020 3:25pm

cj maxx wrote: »

The ONLY reason horse racing is an ' industry' is gambling.
Gambling is the modern opiate of the people and is fcucking pushed on people through ads, sponsorship. Fcuk it.

Really ?

Care to explain the fact that the bloodstock side of things sees tb bloodstock generating any from from 100,000 to 350,000 euro for a decent bred tb to silly numbers of a cool million euro in the sales rings of Ireland, France , Kentucky USA and the U.K. ? Even national hunt horses have got pricey

Care to explain how many stallions, some of whom were only mediocre on the race track or not as proven with progeny , can command the princely cost of 5,000 to 10,000 a covering or the more proven Stallions can command 120k + a covering . Multiply that by 50-100 mares in a season ....

The bookie plays zero role in that , zero

You haven’t a bloody clue . Stop embarrassing yOurself on something that you patently don’t know what you are talking about .

“Gambling is the modern ..”

You do realise that gambling has existed for centuries ,right ? What about the lottery ?

Think you’ll find that booze and fags are still king. Hell, look hard enough you’d find a few lines of coke and actually opiate with little difficulty

Pushed on people ? Lol, if you don’t like it , turn away now . Yes, it’s all over the tv channels like racing U.K., Rte etc but the bookies aren’t paying a fraction to racing authorities compared to what they get out of racing . The race courses certainly aren’t either . And what goes on the tv screen has little do do with the race authorities

Time to call out the horse racing industry

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