What do you do about Club Membership fees if courses are closed

blackwhite · 25-03-2020 11:14am

the.red.baron wrote: »

Is it an imaginary one?

how many people do you think are out there playing who aren't paid up

I'd say zero is the answer, I bet you don't know any

Good friend of mine is a member in same club as Greebo (unless Greebo has changed clubs in last 2 years).

New baby due next month and after buying a new house meant that golf membership was under pressure. Club were happy for him to switch to Pavillion membership for next 2/3 years with no re-application of their joining fee whenever he decides to rejoin as a full member.

Euphoriasean · 25-03-2020 11:29am

Rikand wrote: »

Big time over reaction by the GUI. Golf always considered one of the most low risk things you could do.

We cant golf, but the streets are still thronged with people walking. Theres far greater social distancing on the golf course.

GUI dropped a turd big time on this one

Golf is low risk but also not a necessary risk,its a none essential movement/gathering of people. IMO The GUI had no other option but to shut courses down. Bigger things at play than missing a couple of weeks/months of Golf. In the current climate I find it hard to understand the outrage at their decision.

Would have loved a round with this weather today, might jump the fence later.

blue note · 25-03-2020 11:45am

My membership is relatively low and I'll continue to pay, but I wouldn't judge people for considering it. I know personally speaking I'm worried for my job and my wife's income could drop dramatically too because of all of this. If making mortgage payments gets tight or you start eating away at our savings, you'd have to consider if you can afford to remain a golf club member.

Golf clubs will suffer and it won't just be out of meanness of it's members.

DuckSlice · 25-03-2020 11:48am

I think most clubs are willing to make some sort of deal. Some money is better than no money at all.

Reading this now is making me feel a bit bad for not paying up my sub, but I haven't played at all this year and don't know when I will be able to play with all this. If I can get back playing in May I think I would pay the full membership but that's probably unlikely. I think if the club were to ask members for the help in this time then I probably would pay it up.

Like many I haven't cancelled the gym direct debits, but the gym has decided not to take any for now.

I think the GUI have made the right call, too many people are slack when it comes to washing hands and keeping distance. and you don't know who has touched anything before you.

BraveDonut · 25-03-2020 11:53am

I would like my club to still be there when all of this is over, so I will continue to support them in every way that I can.
Even one month of no DD's from a significant enough number of members could cause major problems for some clubs and force them to close.

GreeBo · 25-03-2020 11:55am

Rikand wrote: »

That's a good point.

Just ban the over 60s then

Ah, but they are the ones with all the money and free time!

GreeBo · 25-03-2020 12:01pm

etxp wrote: »

I think most clubs are willing to make some sort of deal. Some money is better than no money at all.

Reading this now is making me feel a bit bad for not paying up my sub, but I haven't played at all this year and don't know when I will be able to play with all this. If I can get back playing in May I think I would pay the full membership but that's probably unlikely. I think if the club were to ask members for the help in this time then I probably would pay it up.

Like many I haven't cancelled the gym direct debits, but the gym has decided not to take any for now.

I think the GUI have made the right call, too many people are slack when it comes to washing hands and keeping distance. and you don't know who has touched anything before you.

If you expect the course and clubhouse to be in the same condition when you return to golf, then you have to expect to pay to keep it in that condition.

Grass growth isnt on lockdown (yet!)

GreeBo · 25-03-2020 12:02pm

Euphoriasean wrote: »

Would have loved a round with this weather today, might jump the fence later.

My back garden overlooks a (currently empty) pristine golf course....the force will need to be strong with this one later...

Euphoriasean · 25-03-2020 12:05pm

GreeBo wrote: »

My back garden overlooks a (currently empty) pristine golf course....the force will need to be strong with this one later...

stay strong

DuckSlice · 25-03-2020 12:24pm

GreeBo wrote: »

If you expect the course and clubhouse to be in the same condition when you return to golf, then you have to expect to pay to keep it in that condition.

Grass growth isnt on lockdown (yet!)

Well I never knew the grass wouldn't stop growing :eek:

Mantis Toboggan · 25-03-2020 1:15pm

GreeBo wrote: »

If you expect the course and clubhouse to be in the same condition when you return to golf, then you have to expect to pay to keep it in that condition.

Grass growth isnt on lockdown (yet!)

The grass is only starting to grow now for the first time in 6 months!

Mantis Toboggan · 26-03-2020 10:39am

2 months credit announced by my club. Good move imo, keeps everyone happy and encourages people to pay their sub.

willabur · 26-03-2020 11:21am

I think clubs that are proactive on this and make some kind of a gesture will have that investment returned to them

GreeBo · 26-03-2020 11:28am

willabur wrote: »

I think clubs that are proactive on this and make some kind of a gesture will have that investment returned to them

Based on some of the posts I have seen on this forum in the past, I strongly suggest that will not be the case.

Mantis Toboggan wrote: »

The grass is only starting to grow now for the first time in 6 months!

etxp wrote: »

Well I never knew the grass wouldn't stop growing :eek:

Erm, grass grows year round in Ireland, if you think your course hasn't been cutting the grass multiple times per week over the last few months then you are misinformed.

londonred · 26-03-2020 1:13pm

Membership up at end of month planning to upgrade course this year , expect the top courses will be ok as they have waiting lists the clubs in the middle with poor drainage will be in trouble the bottom feeders will always have a market .

Macker1 · 26-03-2020 1:49pm

Will be continuing to pay my membership sub no question and I'm fortunate that I'm able to do so. My club is financially well ran and I would expect it will continue to be carefully managed during this unfortunate crisis. Its a members owned club and most people have been there for a significant length of time so this is just another challenge (albeit fairly tough) to face up to and overcome.

I was recently discussing with the Club Pro some issues with my game and my plan to finally get fitted for a new set of clubs for the first time ever. Had my eyes on nice set of Ping G410's so it will be something to look forward too after we come out of the crisis.

I do completely understand that some people unfortunately will have serious financial issues after been impacted job wise by Covid-19 and in their cases a golf sub may be a luxury that they can ill-afford. I would hope that clubs in this case can be sympathetic with genuine cases.

Ah_go_on · 31-03-2020 11:46pm

Mantis Toboggan wrote: »

2 months credit announced by my club. Good move imo, keeps everyone happy and encourages people to pay their sub.

Sounds like a good idea. I’m feeling a bit of pain, just joined new club 2 weeks ago and handed over €1700+ sub for the year up front, managed a single game before the lockdown. I knew at the time there was a risk of closure but was happy to get my foot in the door. Hopefully they will freeze or extend renewal.

ted1 · 31-03-2020 11:47pm

Golfhead65 wrote: »

Just wondering what everyone will do about membership fees if golf clubs are forced to close ?? If you paid upfront will you be credited, if you are on DD do you suspend ??

If your financial situation hasn’t changed I’d say the moral thing is to keep paying it. Otherwise the club will close. If you have lost your earnings you need to look after number 1.

Kiith · 01-04-2020 9:26am

I'm paying by DD, and i'll keep paying i think. Only a new member, but i'm lucky enough to not be massively impacted by the lockdown (financially speaking).

If things were to change, i would definitely consider stopping though.

redzerdrog · 01-04-2020 10:15am

My ex club you pay a year in advance. So everyone has paid for this year already and the direct debits currently being paid are for next seasons subs.

Few of the lads have stopped their subs but that still gona have to pay for next season regardless

GolfNut33 · 01-04-2020 10:37am

Hearing of lads stopping their DD. I'm thinking they mustn't be too attached to their club or its well being. I'm a club man through and through and would be happy to pay a little extra if they asked for some help. That's just me though.

youcancallmeal · 01-04-2020 11:15am

I wouldn't say I'm a true 'club man' but I'll still be paying my DD because my job is safe(for now) and I would be hard pressed to find another good course near me that doesn't have ridiculous joining fees. I think it's understandable if some people are stopping their DD, they don't want to be paying for something and getting nothing in return. Obviously it isn't nothing if it keeps the club afloat and course in good condition but I guess many will be happy to go elsewhere if their club does close permanently.

GreeBo · 01-04-2020 11:57am

In a strange way, the current situation is likely to see the return of demand outstripping supply and the re-introduction of entrance fees.

I'm expecting a significant number of closures, which will lead to increased demand when this is all over.
Also many clubs will have been burned by members abandoning them (at no loss to the member) a joining fee would severely limit any future occurrences of that IMO.

Ah_go_on · 01-04-2020 12:05pm

GreeBo wrote: »

In a strange way, the current situation is likely to see the return of demand outstripping supply and the re-introduction of entrance fees.

I'm expecting a significant number of closures, which will lead to increased demand when this is all over.
Also many clubs will have been burned by members abandoning them (at no loss to the member) a joining fee would severely limit any future occurrences of that IMO.

That’s quite a good point, members very unlikely to swap clubs if a joining fee has already been paid.

dan_ep82 · 01-04-2020 12:12pm

GreeBo wrote: »

Why would you expect a payment holiday? What expenses have disappeared from your course while you are not playing?

Because I cannot afford to pay it at present, what other reason would there be?

Paying later is the only thing I can do. My expenses have not disappeared, in fact they are looking bigger than ever with hours being cut down dramatically and I know its worse for others who are out of work completely.

Sultan_of_Ping · 01-04-2020 12:13pm

etxp wrote: »

I haven't paid yet, and don't intend to pay unless I can start playing which wont be anytime soon. at this stage I think I will hold out for membership for next year. Club usually does an 15 month offer around October time.

Quite possible that a number of clubs deprived of membership fees, green fees, catering and bar revenues etc won't be around in October to offer anything.

I think clubs that have a strong "local" membership will struggle but be ok - members like me who live close to their club will pay because the convenience of having a club in close proximity is valuable.

Members of clubs travelling from further afield, who maybe don't get a chance to play mid-week or be involved in a greater range of club activities probably don't feel as great a connection with their club - and may be less willing to stump up for their membership.

It's also quite possible that no deals will be forthcoming - if more than a few clubs go to the wall, then fewer clubs means less opportunities to play golf, means higher demands on clubs that survive - combine that with an understandable desire for clubs to try and recover some losses and the probability of deals on any decent course being offered is likely to be low.

GreeBo · 01-04-2020 1:56pm

dan_ep82 wrote: »

Because I cannot afford to pay it at present, what other reason would there be?

Paying later is the only thing I can do. My expenses have not disappeared, in fact they are looking bigger than ever with hours being cut down dramatically and I know its worse for others who are out of work completely.

Yep, but its also worse for your club who have no income and still have pretty much the same expenses....that was my point.
How do you expect your club to survive?

dan_ep82 · 01-04-2020 2:52pm

GreeBo wrote: »

Yep, but its also worse for your club who have no income and still have pretty much the same expenses....that was my point.
How do you expect your club to survive?

I have my priorities, and golf comes second to my home and family, how could it not?

If you have the money for both great but don't try to shame me because I can't afford it in the middle of a pandemic.

Mantis Toboggan · 01-04-2020 3:04pm

If golf clubs go under it will be more than covid 19 which will have caused it. Until recently we had a general manager of the course on 90k a year and he did very little around the place. Mostly was unpaid volunteers that did a lot of the donkey work.

These clubs aren't charities and in some cases are badly run. My club won't go under but this virus will expose the poorly run clubs.

GreeBo · 01-04-2020 3:48pm

dan_ep82 wrote: »

I have my priorities, and golf comes second to my home and family, how could it not?

If you have the money for both great but don't try to shame me because I can't afford it in the middle of a pandemic.

I'm not trying to shame you tbf, just pointing out the implications for your club.

GreeBo · 01-04-2020 3:48pm

Mantis Toboggan wrote: »

If golf clubs go under it will be more than covid 19 which will have caused it. Until recently we had a general manager of the course on 90k a year and he did very little around the place. Mostly was unpaid volunteers that did a lot of the donkey work.

These clubs aren't charities and in some cases are badly run. My club won't go under but this virus will expose the poorly run clubs.

Did you expect the GM to be out filling divots or running the business?

FixdePitchmark · 01-04-2020 3:52pm

GreeBo wrote: »

If you expect the course and clubhouse to be in the same condition when you return to golf, then you have to expect to pay to keep it in that condition.

Grass growth isnt on lockdown (yet!)

I don't think this is accurate. Nobody expects everything to be as it was from the off - it will be a rebuild.

Friends of mine have let go 20/30 people in the space of a week - golf courses are going to let people go into the Covid Scheme. That is the function of the scheme ?

All non critical golf course services haves stopped.

Golf courses could be maintained to a much lesser standard - as was the case during Nama - Rathsalalgh / Killerig were closed with minimal maintenance for years.

All significant large scale projects in golf courses have stopped.

Energy / Heating / rates / insurance / materials / will all be reviewed altered / reduced.

I'm going to support my club fully.

But the operational costs will reduce at golf clubs , if it is managed right.
as difficult as that is going to be - it is our new reality.

Even if I intend to fully support them, the clubs that will ride this out successfully are the ones that engage with the new realities quickly, cut costs quickly and support their members quickly.

Very wealthy clubs could ride this out fully (a handful) - but that is not the reality for the vast majority.

fullstop · 01-04-2020 11:45pm

blackwhite wrote: »

Good friend of mine is a member in same club as Greebo (unless Greebo has changed clubs in last 2 years).

New baby due next month and after buying a new house meant that golf membership was under pressure. Club were happy for him to switch to Pavillion membership for next 2/3 years with no re-application of their joining fee whenever he decides to rejoin as a full member.

Why on earth would they make someone pay the joining fee twice, even if he did have to step away for a couple of years?

GreeBo · 02-04-2020 6:59am

fullstop wrote: »

Why on earth would they make someone pay the joining fee twice, even if he did have to step away for a couple of years?

Well if you leave and you subsequently want to rejoin then you pay the joining fee...?

fullstop · 02-04-2020 8:59am

GreeBo wrote: »

Well if you leave and you subsequently want to rejoin then you pay the joining fee...?

You’ve already paid the joining fee, to join...asking someone to pay it twice is ridiculous.

Sultan_of_Ping · 02-04-2020 9:12am

fullstop wrote: »

You’ve already paid the joining fee, to join...asking someone to pay it twice is ridiculous.

Maybe, but we live in fairly "ridiculous" (as in exceptional) times - it's quite possible, in my view, that if a club is lokoing to fill membership slots and the choice is between a prodigal member and a new member who they can also get a joining fee from, they may well be inclined to go for the latter over the former.

I'd suggest anyone consider suspending their membership or deferring paying, or not paying with the intention of re-joining next year talk to their club - most clubs, you'd hope, would be understanding of the fact that a lot of people are out of work or on much reduced earnings, and would look to accommodate people to help them get through and get back, eventually, to golf - it would be counter-productive not to, as no one is going to prioritise feeding their family over their golf....

.....although a few more weeks locked up with them and I just might

GreeBo · 02-04-2020 9:16am

fullstop wrote: »

You’ve already paid the joining fee, to join...asking someone to pay it twice is ridiculous.

Yeah, you joined and paid the fee...you then left

fullstop · 02-04-2020 9:29am

GreeBo wrote: »

Yeah, you joined and paid the fee...you then left

But you’re paying your annual subs to play the course, on top of the joining fee. The joining fee, IMO, is to get your foot in the door with the club (and probably to separate the wheat from the chaff in a way) so should be a once off, IMO, unless you leave for a number of years. If it’s a case of not having time to play for a couple of years or not having the finances I’d expect any club worth joining would waive paying a second joining fee.

GreeBo · 02-04-2020 9:45am

fullstop wrote: »

But you’re paying your annual subs to play the course, on top of the joining fee. The joining fee, IMO, is to get your foot in the door with the club (and probably to separate the wheat from the chaff in a way) so should be a once off, IMO, unless you leave for a number of years. If it’s a case of not having time to play for a couple of years or not having the finances I’d expect any club worth joining would waive paying a second joining fee.

I've already said that if you talk to your club they may be willing to help you out, I know mine has in the past.
But if you just stop paying the club has to assume that you are done with them and want to leave.
I certainly wouldnt expect the joining fee to be waived, why would the club ignore that income if there is someone else willing to pay it?

blackwhite · 02-04-2020 10:04am

fullstop wrote: »

Why on earth would they make someone pay the joining fee twice, even if he did have to step away for a couple of years?

In his specific case he'd come through as a junior member, and as a result paid a significantly discounting joining fee when he became a full member.

No idea how they handle it for someone who paid full rate when originally joining.

Sultan_of_Ping · 02-04-2020 10:13am

GreeBo wrote: »

I've already said that if you talk to your club they may be willing to help you out, I know mine has in the past.
But if you just stop paying the club has to assume that you are done with them and want to leave.
I certainly wouldnt expect the joining fee to be waived, why would the club ignore that income if there is someone else willing to pay it?

+1 on this.

I know our place has facilitated people when they've had to work away, or gone to uni or for whatever reason were looking like they were going to be away from the club for a year or more.

I think if you just disappear, they'll assume you've gone elsewhere and probably within their rights to treat any future application as an application to join, rather than re-join.

Plus if people are planning to let their memberships lapse can I suggest it might be good manners to let the club know? It probably helps with planning etc if they definitely know someone is not coming back, rather than them wondering.

blue note · 02-04-2020 10:13am

GreeBo wrote: »

I've already said that if you talk to your club they may be willing to help you out, I know mine has in the past.
But if you just stop paying the club has to assume that you are done with them and want to leave.
I certainly wouldnt expect the joining fee to be waived, why would the club ignore that income if there is someone else willing to pay it?

Communication is key. Clubs will appreciate it and be more likely to help you out.

Will the joining fee be waived? It depends. I'd certainly ask to freeze my membership rather than cancel it if I was taking a break from the club rather than leaving permanently. If you've a genuine reason such as illness or financial difficulty I'd hope clubs would be understanding and I suspect most would. That would be the most likely way to not have to pay now but get back into the club without paying a joining fee later.

I expect we'll have a bit of a repeat of the financial crisis with clubs doing what they can to survive now. And joining fees will only remain in the top clubs and the ones in affluent highly populated areas like clontarf or the likes.

GreeBo · 02-04-2020 1:46pm

blue note wrote: »

Communication is key. Clubs will appreciate it and be more likely to help you out.

Will the joining fee be waived? It depends. I'd certainly ask to freeze my membership rather than cancel it if I was taking a break from the club rather than leaving permanently. If you've a genuine reason such as illness or financial difficulty I'd hope clubs would be understanding and I suspect most would. That would be the most likely way to not have to pay now but get back into the club without paying a joining fee later.

I expect we'll have a bit of a repeat of the financial crisis with clubs doing what they can to survive now. And joining fees will only remain in the top clubs and the ones in affluent highly populated areas like clontarf or the likes.

I think the best approach for both sides is to temporarily downgrade your membership to lower your sub. Switch to distance or house member for example.

Glebee · 02-04-2020 1:58pm

I suppose like the banks the best thing to do is talk to your club about membership payments. I usually pay mine and sons in parts over Jan, Feb and March. Club are only too happy to oblige. I knew this lock down was coming but paid the final part the week before last. Our club is in bother money wise and without these subs they would fold. A lot of clubs that have money issues or are just about staying above water will be in serious bother if this lock down continues for a long time. I dont know how many of my fellow club members are all paid up or intend too at this stage

Seve OB · 02-04-2020 7:18pm

GolfNut33 wrote: »

Hearing of lads stopping their DD. I'm thinking they mustn't be too attached to their club or its well being. I'm a club man through and through and would be happy to pay a little extra if they asked for some help. That's just me though.

maybe you should keep thinking.

maybe they have lost their job, or had their income dramatically reduced and just can't afford it.

its not always about choice, sometimes life changes and your have to adapt accordingly.

morrga · 02-04-2020 10:35pm

Seve OB wrote: »

maybe you should keep thinking.

maybe they have lost their job, or had their income dramatically reduced and just can't afford it.

its not always about choice, sometimes life changes and your have to adapt accordingly.

Income subsidies have been provided by government to protect incomes. Most who play golf haven’t had their income too badly impacted. A golf sub is an annual contract not a monthly subscription that you can cancel on a whim.

xgronkjabv6pcl · 02-04-2020 11:15pm

morrga wrote: »

Income subsidies have been provided by government to protect incomes. Most who play golf haven’t had their income too badly impacted. A golf sub is an annual contract not a monthly subscription that you can cancel on a whim.

How could you possibly know that?

Seve OB · 02-04-2020 11:57pm

morrga wrote: »

Income subsidies have been provided by government to protect incomes. Most who play golf haven’t had their income too badly impacted. A golf sub is an annual contract not a monthly subscription that you can cancel on a whim.

im down to 30% of my regular wage so im gonna suggest you know nothing about anyone else business

GolfNut33 · 03-04-2020 12:00am

Seve OB wrote: »

maybe you should keep thinking.

maybe they have lost their job, or had their income dramatically reduced and just can't afford it.

its not always about choice, sometimes life changes and your have to adapt accordingly.

Was talking about members who were cancelling their DD just because the course is closed as per previous post.

Obviously there are more important outgoing at home and if income drops then golf gets the chop.

Sultan_of_Ping · 03-04-2020 8:34am

morrga wrote: »

Income subsidies have been provided by government to protect incomes. Most who play golf haven’t had their income too badly impacted. A golf sub is an annual contract not a monthly subscription that you can cancel on a whim.

Nonsense.

Two of the lads who I regularly play golf with are pretty well rewarded IT-type individuals - but they are independent contractors, so while they may pull down a generous hourly or daily rate, they're getting zero at the moment, and it's likely to be that way for some time.

Likewise an awful lot of other people - we've a few taxi drivers who are members - can't imagine they're not suffering, likewise anyone else who is self-employed or works for any number of businesses. There's a reason we're heading 25%+ unemployment.

In fact, I'd bet I'm one of the exceptions in our club in that I'm still getting a salary.

Finally, I'd disagree with your characterisation of a golf sub as an annual contract - that may be legally correct, but at the end of the day the club is a collective, and the collective should (and in most cases will) go some way to helping it's members. But the club can only help if it knows what's going on, that's why I think it's important for people in difficulties to talk to their club.

I'd say any club taking a legalistic approach to gathering membership fees won't have many fees to collect by next year.

What do you do about Club Membership fees if courses are closed

Comments