Women's Rights in Islam - UPDATED WITH MOD INSTRUCTION IN FIRST POST

katydid · 30-12-2014 11:41pm

niamhstokes wrote: »

I know priests basic training is 7 years and they study at university the length of time too. That's just the basic training they do though. Not sure about nuns. I am sure many of them are scholarly theologians too.

A lot of them do the same training as the priests, but they can't be ordained; because they have wombs and breasts...

It's a bit like Victorian times, when women studied alongside men in medical schools but couldn't graduate. Roman Catholics will look back on these times and laugh one day.

katydid · 30-12-2014 11:42pm

muslimstudent wrote: »

katydid wrote: »

Drogheda's emblem has nothing to do with the Turks or any Muslims.

"The Star and Crescent coat of arms of Drogheda in fact dates back to the year 1210 AD and perhaps even earlier.

'In April of the year 1185, the then Prince John made his first visit to Ireland where he granted extensive lands to the trusted Royal Administration with one of these being Bertram de Verdun who was found in Drogheda at this time.

'During his stay in Ireland the young Prince, who was then only 19 years of age, established the foundation of Administration and Law, which he later expanded upon in his second expedition to Ireland in his reign as King in the year 1210.'

Prince John returned to England in December of the year 1185 and by this time Hugh de Lacy was establishing the town of Drogheda.

Walter de Lacy, son of Hugh was then granted the town's first Charter in 1194 and by the time King John arrived back in Drogheda in 1210, the town was flourishing.

John's Coat of Arms was that of the Star and Crescent,"

.....

There are different views of this.
Does he claim that the aid sent by the turks is false?

I suggest you read the article.

katydid · 30-12-2014 11:44pm

Defender OF Faith wrote: »

They are not expected to cover up so men wont be tempted sexually how many time do I have to tell you this? they wear the Hijab to obey and please their lord. Such purpose is one of the benefits that comes with the veil.

.

So the Muslims here who have said it was to stop men being sexually tempted are wrong? You didn't say that yourself?

Defender OF Faith · 30-12-2014 11:45pm

katydid wrote: »

So how do YOU explain away that verse?

I provided 2 articles already one that refute what she posted and one that deals with an alternative interpretation of the verse, review my comment.

katydid wrote: »

Knowing scripture by heart is not necessarily the same as understanding it. I see no great merit in spending years learning something by rote when you could pend it figuring out what it means instead.

There's no greater honour to a Muslim then memorizing his own words in his heart along with the immense reward associated with it, but I dont think a single Christian can memorize the bible even if he tried

Defender OF Faith · 30-12-2014 11:50pm

katydid wrote: »

So the Muslims here who have said it was to stop men being sexually tempted are wrong? You didn't say that yourself?

I never said in fact I was emphasising this point from early on, and no Muslim have said that the reason women cover up is to protect themselves, it's an explanation and a benefit of the Hijab and not the reason why, review my post:

Defender Of Faith wrote: »

They are not expected to cover up so men wont be tempted sexually how many time do I have to tell you this? they wear the Hijab to obey and please their lord. Such purpose is one of the benefits that comes with the veil.

The Muslim woman does not feel the pressures to be beautiful or attractive, which is so apparent in the Western and Eastern cultures. She does not have to live up to expectations of what is desirable and what is not. Superficial beauty is not the Muslim woman's concern, her main goal is inner spiritual beauty. She does not have to use her body and charms to get recognition or acceptance in society.

Another benefit of adorning the veil is that it is a protection for women. Muslims believe that when women display their beauty to everybody, they degrade themselves by becoming objects of sexual desire and become vulnerable to men, who look at them as " gratification for the sexual urge". The Hijab makes them out as women belonging to the class of modest chaste women, so that transgressors and sensual men may recognize them as such and dare not tease them out of mischief". Hijab solves the problem of sexual harassment and unwanted sexual advances, which is so demeaning for women, when men get mixed signals and believe that women want their advances by the way they reveal their bodies.

The western ideology of, 'if you have it, you should flash it!' is quite opposite to the Islamic principle, where the purpose is not to bring attention to ones self, but to be modest. Women in so many societies are just treated as sex symbols and nothing more than just a body who "display themselves to get attention". A good example is in advertising, where a woman's body is used to sell products. Women are constantly degraded, and subjected to reveal more and more of themselves.

The Covering sanctifies her and forces society to hold her in high esteem. Far from humiliating the woman, Hijab actually grants the woman an aura of respect, and bestows upon her a separate and unique identity. According to the Qu'ran, the same high standards of moral conduct are for men as it is for women. Modesty is essential in a man's life, as well, whether it be in action, morals or speech. Islam also commands proper behavior and dress of men, in that they are not allowed to make a wanton show of their bodies to attract attention onto themselves, and they too must dress modestly. They have a special commandment to lower their eyes, and not to brazenly stare at women.

Stheno · 30-12-2014 11:54pm

katydid wrote: »

I think it's because we're female, he thinks he can talk down to us. He hasn't reckoned for Irish women...

I work with Muslims every day as well as Hindus and genuinely don't notice until some religious celebration comes up in work, I've also a Muslim doctor, in the past my gp was a male Muslim and I'd no problem with him

katydid wrote: »

So telling Muslims it's ok to beat your wife as long as you don't beat her in the face or break her bones is acceptable????

That was what I would class the extreme side of Islam

Defender OF Faith wrote: »

Mary McAleese was widely reported in the media for her remarks about the Drogheda Star and Crescent being used in honour of Turkish aid ships during the Famine, proved to be incorrect as Drogheda has had the symbol as it's crest since 1210.

source: http://droghedalife.com/791/94859/a/launch-of-drogheda-and-the-ottoman-empire-ships-of-1847

This is where many people might have got this misconception from but that doesnt deny the possible contribution of the Ottoman to the Irish citizen during the famine.

They are not expected to cover up so men wont be tempted sexually how many time do I have to tell you this? they wear the Hijab to obey and please their lord. Such purpose is one of the benefits that comes with the veil.

The Muslim woman does not feel the pressures to be beautiful or attractive, which is so apparent in the Western and Eastern cultures. She does not have to live up to expectations of what is desirable and what is not. Superficial beauty is not the Muslim woman's concern, her main goal is inner spiritual beauty. She does not have to use her body and charms to get recognition or acceptance in society.

Another benefit of adorning the veil is that it is a protection for women. Muslims believe that when women display their beauty to everybody, they degrade themselves by becoming objects of sexual desire and become vulnerable to men, who look at them as " gratification for the sexual urge". The Hijab makes them out as women belonging to the class of modest chaste women, so that transgressors and sensual men may recognize them as such and dare not tease them out of mischief". Hijab solves the problem of sexual harassment and unwanted sexual advances, which is so demeaning for women, when men get mixed signals and believe that women want their advances by the way they reveal their bodies.

The western ideology of, 'if you have it, you should flash it!' is quite opposite to the Islamic principle, where the purpose is not to bring attention to ones self, but to be modest. Women in so many societies are just treated as sex symbols and nothing more than just a body who "display themselves to get attention". A good example is in advertising, where a woman's body is used to sell products. Women are constantly degraded, and subjected to reveal more and more of themselves.

The Covering sanctifies her and forces society to hold her in high esteem. Far from humiliating the woman, Hijab actually grants the woman an aura of respect, and bestows upon her a separate and unique identity. According to the Qu'ran, the same high standards of moral conduct are for men as it is for women. Modesty is essential in a man's life, as well, whether it be in action, morals or speech. Islam also commands proper behavior and dress of men, in that they are not allowed to make a wanton show of their bodies to attract attention onto themselves, and they too must dress modestly. They have a special commandment to lower their eyes, and not to brazenly stare at women.

No it doesn't give them "ownership" over them stop putting words in my mouth.

Not every women in this world is as educated as you are and is blessed with a job as you are or able to protect and provide for themselves as you. Islam made it the duty of the Husband to protect an financially maintain his wife and daughters. If a robber or a thief break into the house it's the man duty to protect his wife and fend him off. This does not prevent the wife from pursing a career or supporting her husband if he's in need, but she will not be asked by God as to why she did not provide for her family the burden of this question will be on the man.

I don't think you sympathize with women who go through their menstrual cycle, as it's the only reason why women are excused from their prayer & not because of household duties or any other reason.

Some menstruating women might find performing ablution/Wudu 5 times a day to pray difficult during her cycle, due to the emotional disturbances associated with menstruation. that can range from irritability, to tiredness, or "weepiness"

If a Muslim women were to suffer from such symptoms she's excused from performing the prayer, however if she feels fine and normal she can perform her obligation and pray.

I work in a male dominated field and it does actually influence how I dress, as I don't want to appear overly provocative, and I'm agnostic, nothing to do with religion, I want people to focus on my professionalism and not my appearance, and I am conversative in how I dress, I've been described as a boring dresser in work

katydid wrote: »

Jehovah's Witnesses aren't Christian.

They are, they are just the extreme of Christianity

katydid wrote: »

A lot of them do the same training as the priests, but they can't be ordained; because they have wombs and breasts...

It's a bit like Victorian times, when women studied alongside men in medical schools but couldn't graduate. Roman Catholics will look back on these times and laugh one day.

So now the argument has become circular, Christianity is proven to be as archaic as Islam in restricting women and requiring some of the more extreme Christian women to dress in the same way with veils and headscarves.

katydid · 31-12-2014 12:03am

Defender OF Faith wrote: »

[I
Not every women in this world is as educated as you are and is blessed with a job as you are or able to protect and provide for themselves as you. Islam made it the duty of the Husband to protect an financially maintain his wife and daughters. If a robber or a thief break into the house it's the man duty to protect his wife and fend him off. This does not prevent the wife from pursing a career or supporting her husband if he's in need, but she will not be asked by God as to why she did not provide for her family the burden of this question will be on the man.

I don't think you sympathize with women who go through their menstrual cycle, as it's the only reason why women are excused from their prayer & not because of household duties or any other reason.

Some menstruating women might find performing ablution/Wudu 5 times a day to pray difficult during her cycle, due to the emotional disturbances associated with menstruation. that can range from irritability, to tiredness, or "weepiness"

If a Muslim women were to suffer from such symptoms she's excused from performing the prayer, however if she feels fine and normal she can perform her obligation and pray.

Yes, I am lucky enough to be "educated", but you don't have to be "educated" to earn a good living or provide for yourself. My brother is also "educated" and he earns a decent living. There are many women and men who aren't "educated" and who earn a good living and provide for themselves. That doesn't explain why you think that only women should be provided for and maintained by men. Why not men provided for and maintained by women, to be equal? Or, crazy idea, not bringing gender into it all, but expecting every individual to be responsible for themselves, and, when they become a couple, to take joint responsibility for each other.

You can't seriously suggest I don't know what it's like to go through menstruation? I know a hell of a lot more about it than you, and I can assure you it's not an illness or a handicap. There are some women who have severe pains during their period, but they are a minority. Most women get on with their lives as they do every other day of the month. How on earth would it affect their ability to work or pray or perform ablutions? You don't seem to have much intimate experience of women..

katydid · 31-12-2014 12:07am

Stheno wrote: »

I work with Muslims every day as well as Hindus and genuinely don't notice until some religious celebration comes up in work, I've also a Muslim doctor, in the past my gp was a male Muslim and I'd no problem with him

That was what I would class the extreme side of Islam

I work in a male dominated field and it does actually influence how I dress, as I don't want to appear overly provocative, and I'm agnostic, nothing to do with religion, I want people to focus on my professionalism and not my appearance, and I am conversative in how I dress, I've been described as a boring dresser in work

They are, they are just the extreme of Christianity

So now the argument has become circular, Christianity is proven to be as archaic as Islam in restricting women and requiring some of the more extreme Christian women to dress in the same way with veils and headscarves.

First of all, Jehovah's Witnesses are NOT Christians. Christians believe in the divinity of Christ and the Trinity; the tenets of Christianity are based on the Nicene Creed, thrashed out over centuries in the early days.

Secondly, the beating your wife thing is of course the extreme side of Islam. The point I and Niamh are trying to make is that Defender is trying to excuse it by saying that it was aimed at a Muslim audience. Defender seemed to to think that that excused it.
No, the argument isn't circular, because I, as a Christian, and most Christians, understand perfectly well that things from the Bible about veils and suchlike belong to a world two thousand years ago. Muslims aren't prepared to accept that.

Defender OF Faith · 31-12-2014 12:12am

katydid wrote: »

You can't seriously suggest I don't know what it's like to go through menstruation? I know a hell of a lot more about it than you, and I can assure you it's not an illness or a handicap. There are some women who have severe pains during their period, but they are a minority. Most women get on with their lives as they do every other day of the month. How on earth would it affect their ability to work or pray or perform ablutions? You don't seem to have much intimate experience of women..

Numerous studies have "reported a significant influence of ovarian hormone status on cognition and person perception" there are many menstrually related mood issues supported by scientific findings I'll link a few below if your unaware.

Studies:
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...06453008000966
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...18506X07002085
http://archneurpsyc.jamanetwork.com/...ticleid=645067

Health related articles to menstruation:
http://www.webmd.com/women/guide/est...omens-emotions
http://www.self.com/flash/health-blo...l-cycle-affec/
http://www.womenshealthmag.com/healt...e-mood-changes
http://www.med.unc.edu/psych/wmd/moo...rually-related

Now it is well known that normal women suffer varying degrees of discomfort preceding the onset of menstruation, hence am not sure why are you arguing against this.

It's because of such discomforts that results; A Muslim women is excused from performing the 5 daily prayers.

"menstruating women might find performing ablution/Wudu 5 times a day to pray difficult during her cycle, due to the emotional disturbances associated with menstruation. that can range from irritability, to tiredness, or "weepiness"

If a Muslim women were to suffer from such symptoms she's excused from performing the prayer, however if she feels fine and normal she can perform her obligation and pray."

muslimstudent · 31-12-2014 12:17am

katydid wrote: »

Your observation is limited, then. There are nuns who lecture in universities and theological colleges, and who have written academic and theological books. One of my theology tutors was a nun.

Nuns, like anyone else, go through the normal channels of scholarship; university, post graduate studies...what channels do you think they would do? Gaze at crystal balls?

Knowing scripture by heart is not necessarily the same as understanding it. I see no great merit in spending years learning something by rote when you could pend it figuring out what it means instead.

You quite right that my observation is limited. Thank you for sharing. I'm quite impressed. Is that all nuns or does it differ from place to place.

In Islam we recite the scriptured during our 5 daily ritual prayers and at other times. Hence, there is considerably merit in memorization as well as understaning.

Defender OF Faith · 31-12-2014 12:18am

katydid wrote: »

Why not men provided for and maintained by women, to be equal? Or, crazy idea, not bringing gender into it all, but expecting every individual to be responsible for themselves, and, when they become a couple, to take joint responsibility for each other.

There's nothing wrong with a women financially providing for her man if he's unable to due to circumstances.

So far you have not pointed out anything wrong with having the man taking the financial burden and providing for his wife while at the same time she's free to work,support her husband,purse a career get educated and work.

Stheno · 31-12-2014 12:20am

katydid wrote: »

No, the argument isn't circular, because I, as a Christian, and most Christians, understand perfectly well that things from the Bible about veils and suchlike belong to a world two thousand years ago. Muslims aren't prepared to accept that.

The argument is circular when you see nuns in veils as I have in both Dublin and Malta the past few years.

muslimstudent · 31-12-2014 12:22am

Defender OF Faith wrote: »

There's nothing wrong with a women financially providing for her man if he's unable to due to circumstances.

So far you have not pointed out anything wrong with having the man taking the financial burden and providing for his wife while at the same time she's free to work,purse a career get educate and work.

And she gets to keep her money that she earns and still can take from the husband what she needs for herself and the house.

muslimstudent · 31-12-2014 12:27am

katydid wrote: »

No, the argument isn't circular, because I, as a Christian, and most Christians, understand perfectly well that things from the Bible about veils and suchlike belong to a world two thousand years ago. Muslims aren't prepared to accept that.

Maybe in a world, filled with sexual imagery, where so many women are mere objects of male desire, either willingly or forced due to circumstances, we are more in need of stone age laws to get the balance right again.

I wonder if you are aware of Christian women who have adopted the hijab and are loving it. There testimonies are all over youtube. Check out the growing numbers of Jewish women in Israel, Canada and Chile that are also wearing the hijab. The Jewish women in Israel , I mentioned have even adopted the veil.

katydid · 31-12-2014 12:27am

muslimstudent wrote: »

And she gets to keep her money that she earns and still can take from the husband what she needs for herself and the house.

So not an equal partnership then, like a Christian or normal Western marriage, where people share their earnings for the common good.

Defender OF Faith · 31-12-2014 12:28am

katydid wrote: »

Secondly, the beating your wife thing is of course the extreme side of Islam. The point I and Niamh are trying to make is that Defender is trying to excuse it by saying that it was aimed at a Muslim audience. Defender seemed to to think that that excused it.

I was not excusing it, I was explaining how this channel is directed to a Muslim audience and the clip in question is directed to those Muslims who might think that because of the verse I can punch and hit my wife as I please.

If you review my response to Nimah long post about the verse I provided 2 articles, one that refute what Silas has presented and the other provide an alternative explanation of the verse where it not allowed to hit the women please read it when you have the time.

Stheno · 31-12-2014 12:30am

katydid wrote: »

So not an equal partnership then, like a Christian or normal Western marriage, where people share their earnings for the common good.

I paid my ex husband a sum of a about 600e a month in maintenance as he was poorer than me and I'm not a Muslim

Are you unfamiliar with our maintenance laws?

katydid · 31-12-2014 12:34am

Defender OF Faith wrote: »

Numerous studies have "reported a significant influence of ovarian hormone status on cognition and person perception" there are many menstrually related mood issues supported by scientific findings I'll link a few below if your unaware.

Studies:
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...06453008000966
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...18506X07002085
http://archneurpsyc.jamanetwork.com/...ticleid=645067

Health related articles to menstruation:
http://www.webmd.com/women/guide/est...omens-emotions
http://www.self.com/flash/health-blo...l-cycle-affec/
http://www.womenshealthmag.com/healt...e-mood-changes
http://www.med.unc.edu/psych/wmd/moo...rually-related

Now it is well known that normal women suffer varying degrees of discomfort preceding the onset of menstruation, hence am not sure why are you arguing against this.

It's because of such discomforts that results; A Muslim women is excused from performing the 5 daily prayers.

"menstruating women might find performing ablution/Wudu 5 times a day to pray difficult during her cycle, due to the emotional disturbances associated with menstruation. that can range from irritability, to tiredness, or "weepiness"

If a Muslim women were to suffer from such symptoms she's excused from performing the prayer, however if she feels fine and normal she can perform her obligation and pray."

You're a man. I'm a woman. I've had periods. I've given birth. I can assure you, the female reproductive system is not a handicap, and a period is not an illness. SOME women have problems.

Any woman OR MAN who has any kind of illness should be excused from certain things in life, but singling out women as a group and assuming that because they have periods they are somehow incapacitated every month is sexist and ignorant.

katydid · 31-12-2014 12:36am

Stheno wrote: »

I paid my ex husband a sum of a about 600e a month in maintenance as he was poorer than me and I'm not a Muslim

Are you unfamiliar with our maintenance laws?

More fool you. Nobody should pay to maintain another adult. Children are a different thing. I never paid my ex-husband a penny or looked for a penny from him, as we had no children together. As far as I know, there is no law to that effect.

katydid · 31-12-2014 12:37am

Defender OF Faith wrote: »

I was not excusing it, I was explaining how this channel is directed to a Muslim audience and the clip in question is directed to those Muslims who might think that because of the verse I can punch and hit my wife as I please..

So why didn't this channel tell the Muslim audience that it is wrong to beat a woman in ANY WAY?

Obviously they don't INTERPRET Islam the same way as you do.

muslimstudent · 31-12-2014 12:38am

katydid wrote: »

So not an equal partnership then, like a Christian or normal Western marriage, where people share their earnings for the common good.

Traditional early century Christian practice or modern secular Christians?

Defender OF Faith · 31-12-2014 12:40am

katydid wrote: »

You're a man. I'm a woman. I've had periods. I've given birth. I can assure you, the female reproductive system is not a handicap, and a period is not an illness. SOME women have problems.

I never made such claims and would dissociate myself from people who does.

katydid wrote: »

Any woman OR MAN who has any kind of illness should be excused from certain things in life, but singling out women as a group and assuming that because they have periods they are somehow incapacitated every month is sexist and ignorant.

Because they deserve a special attention and mention as a period is a natural part of a women life and is not an illness, and due to the discomforts a women may go through during her period, she is excused from prayer, as having to perform ablution and pray 5 times a day in such a state my cause her more distress, especially when she needs to wake up at 2-7 AM for the morning prayer.

katydid · 31-12-2014 12:41am

Defender OF Faith wrote: »

I provided 2 articles already one that refute what she posted and one that deals with an alternative interpretation of the verse, review my comment.

There's no greater honour to a Muslim then memorizing his own words in his heart along with the immense reward associated with it, but I dont think a single Christian can memorize the bible even if he tried

That's fine. As long as you agree that these things are open to interpretation, and there is no one definitive point of agreement.

That's fine, if Muslims want to learn things by rote. It's not my idea of scholarship, because learning by rote is no guarantee of understanding. It is, in fact, often a hindrance, as I have found in over thirty years of teaching. I have no interest in memorising the Bible, although I spent time reading and studying it. I see no need to commit it to memory, as long as I have a text I can read from. As long as you realise that there are other kinds of scholarship.

muslimstudent · 31-12-2014 12:44am

katydid wrote: »

More fool you. Nobody should pay to maintain another adult. Children are a different thing. I never paid my ex-husband a penny or looked for a penny from him, as we had no children together. As far as I know, there is no law to that effect.

Whatever happened to good old Christian generosity and charity.

katydid · 31-12-2014 12:45am

Defender OF Faith wrote: »

I never made such claims and would dissociate myself from people who does.

Because they deserve a special attention and mention as a period is a natural part of a women life and is not an illness, and due to the discomforts a women may go through during her period, she is excused from prayer, as having to perform ablution and pray 5 times a day in such a state my cause her more distress, especially when she needs to wake up at 2-7 AM for the morning prayer.

Special attention? Why? If it's just a normal part of life, why treat it as special?
Explain how waking up for morning prayer might be a problem because someone has their period? I fail to see the connection.

katydid · 31-12-2014 12:46am

muslimstudent wrote: »

Whatever happened to good old Christian generosity and charity.

What has that got to do with this issue?

katydid · 31-12-2014 12:46am

muslimstudent wrote: »

Traditional early century Christian practice or modern secular Christians?

Modern Christians, secular or otherwise.

muslimstudent · 31-12-2014 12:47am

katydid wrote: »

That's fine. As long as you agree that these things are open to interpretation, and there is no one definitive point of agreement.

That's fine, if Muslims want to learn things by rote. It's not my idea of scholarship, because learning by rote is no guarantee of understanding. It is, in fact, often a hindrance, as I have found in over thirty years of teaching. I have no interest in memorising the Bible, although I spent time reading and studying it. I see no need to commit it to memory, as long as I have a text I can read from. As long as you realise that there are other kinds of scholarship.

Memorisation of the Quran is not scholarship.

Millions of lay people are Hafidh (memorisers/protectors) of the Quran.

Scholars, chose to do it, to aid them with their worship and so that they can recall at will when teaching or writing.

niamhstokes · 31-12-2014 12:49am

Stheno wrote: »

The argument is circular when you see nuns in veils as I have in both Dublin and Malta the past few years.

Nuns wear it as a uniform showing they are celibate and married to the church. It's not for every woman to wear. It's a special uniform to distinguish them from the laity as far as i know.

katydid · 31-12-2014 12:50am

muslimstudent wrote: »

Memorisation of the Quran is not scholarship.

Millions of lay people are Hafidh (memorisers/protectors) of the Quran.

Scholars, chose to do it, to aid them with their worship and so that they can recall at will when teaching or writing.

"Memorisation of the Quran is not scholarship."
Fair enough. I'm glad we agree. YOU gave the impression that you thougth it was, when you questioned the bona fides of nuns being scholars. You said Muslim scholars started off you by memorising the Qur'an.

Women's Rights in Islam - UPDATED WITH MOD INSTRUCTION IN FIRST POST

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