HELP!! (coffee extraction)

Bluefoam · 12-05-2020 12:02pm #1

I've run out of the Illy supermarket coffee & I'm still waiting for my single wall baskets to arrive, so I'm still using the pressurised ones... The machine is a Bambino Plus with Sage Smart Grinder Pro.

I took my (once) fresh beans out of the freezer, left them defrost for a day & ground them at the preset Smart Pro settings... but have achieved zero extraction. No coifee comes out. Have tried the grinder grind size: 2; 6; 12; 18, I'm using the Razor Tool for dosing, but have also tried going by weight. Have tamped heavily & lightly... No liquid comes out.

I would appreciate if anyone could tell me what I'm doing wrong.

Squidgy Black · 12-05-2020 1:02pm

Bluefoam wrote: »

I've run out of the Illy supermarket coffee & I'm still waiting for my single wall baskets to arrive, so I'm still using the pressurised ones... The machine is a Bambino Plus with Sage Smart Grinder Pro.

I took my (once) fresh beans out of the freezer, left them defrost for a day & ground them at the preset Smart Pro settings... but have achieved zero extraction. No coifee comes out. Have tried the grinder grind size: 2; 6; 12; 18, I'm using the Razor Tool for dosing, but have also tried going by weight. Have tamped heavily & lightly... No liquid comes out.

I would appreciate if anyone could tell me what I'm doing wrong.

When you take the portafilter out, is the puck wet?

Dial your grinder back coarser, if you're still get nothing no drops at all it would indicate that the grind is still too fine to push through, but if you go coarser (to almost pourover) it should fly out of the portafilter. Is this the first time you've used the grinder? Take off the hopper, and you should see the top burr. On it there should be numbers, and a red dot. Usually from factory it's set to 5, but the problem is not all these grinders are calibrated correctly so it could in fact be grinding finer than some of the online suggestions.

Bluefoam · 12-05-2020 1:09pm

Squidgy Black wrote: »

When you take the portafilter out, is the puck wet?

Dial your grinder back coarser, if you're still get nothing no drops at all it would indicate that the grind is still too fine to push through, but if you go coarser (to almost pourover) it should fly out of the portafilter. Is this the first time you've used the grinder? Take off the hopper, and you should see the top burr. On it there should be numbers, and a red dot. Usually from factory it's set to 5, but the problem is not all these grinders are calibrated correctly so it could in fact be grinding finer than some of the online suggestions.

Yes, first time using the grinder... I dailed it up to 28 & got an extraction... It wasn't a pleasant cup of coffee. I'm going to put the grinder on hold and get some more supermarket coffee in the meantime. Single wall baskets should arrive shortly and I'll give it another go when they do.

Gooey Looey · 12-05-2020 1:18pm

I have a Sage grinder pro and have it set to grind for 18 seconds on grind setting 8 for espresso using my regular coffee (Fusion from artofcoffee.ie).

Bluefoam · 12-05-2020 1:25pm

Gooey Looey wrote: »

I have a Sage grinder pro and have it set to grind for 18 seconds on grind setting 8 for espresso using my regular coffee (Fusion from artofcoffee.ie).

Thanks, I'm using the pressurised baskets, so I don't think I'm going to ghet the right results. Have the other baskets arriving soon, so hopefully that'll sort things...

It's good to know other peoples grind settings... It's a minefield.

Technocentral · 12-05-2020 2:07pm

Bluefoam wrote: »

Thanks, I'm using the pressurised baskets, so I don't think I'm going to ghet the right results. Have the other baskets arriving soon, so hopefully that'll sort things...

It's good to know other peoples grind settings... It's a minefield.

I use the Sage for my Delonghi Dedica with pressurised basket (waiting on a unpressurised basket), has to be grind setting 20 or higher to get extraction, thats on SAM beans from Cloudpicker bought about a week after their roast dates and stored in a dark press, the odd time on those settings it still doesnt come out.

Bluefoam · 12-05-2020 2:11pm

Thanks. I'm also using Cloud Picker Sam... Sounds like you're using pressurised baskets too...

Squidgy Black · 12-05-2020 2:23pm

Bluefoam wrote: »

Yes, first time using the grinder... I dailed it up to 28 & got an extraction... It wasn't a pleasant cup of coffee. I'm going to put the grinder on hold and get some more supermarket coffee in the meantime. Single wall baskets should arrive shortly and I'll give it another go when they do.

Likely that the coffee's too fresh compared to the supermarket coffee and needs a much coarser grind for the pressurised baskets. I'd say you're probably best waiting for the single wall baskets to avoid wasting any more expensive beans with the pressurised baskets, but even when you get them you might spend a bit of time running multiple shots trying to dial it in

Bluefoam · 12-05-2020 2:39pm

Squidgy Black wrote: »

Likely that the coffee's too fresh compared to the supermarket coffee and needs a much coarser grind for the pressurised baskets. I'd say you're probably best waiting for the single wall baskets to avoid wasting any more expensive beans with the pressurised baskets, but even when you get them you might spend a bit of time running multiple shots trying to dial it in

I think you're right

Mr Magnolia · 12-05-2020 8:55pm

Weigh each dose, choose a volume, say 16g and stick to it. That's one variable looked after.

Once you know how much your dosing adjust the grind until you get your required volume of espresso. Again, fix the volume you desire, say 45ml in 25sec.

Try and keep your coffee evenly distributed in the portafilter and your tamp consistent.

Mr Magnolia · 12-05-2020 8:56pm

What's a pressurised basket?

Bluefoam · 13-05-2020 5:23pm

Single wall baskets finally arrived today!

My first proper coffee was actually quite nice. I'm going to adjust my grind slightly, but impressed so far.

Technocentral · 13-05-2020 5:58pm

Bluefoam wrote: »

Single wall baskets finally arrived today!

My first proper coffee was actually quite nice. I'm going to adjust my grind slightly, but impressed so far.

What about the hole where the screw in portafilter was does it effect flow?

Bluefoam · 13-05-2020 6:05pm

Technocentral wrote: »

What about the hole where the screw in portafilter was does it effect flow?

Not sure I understand. Old basket pops out of the portafilter and new basket pops in. Very simple swap.

The Hound Gone Wild · 13-05-2020 6:09pm

Not that you need it now but you don't need to tamp with a pressurised basket.

willabur · 13-05-2020 6:12pm

I have the sage bambino plus

I don't have a grinder yet but getting through coffee angel coffee quickly enough to not justify the outlay. First bag of coffee was ground espresso setting 1 in shop. The machine couldn't push through it. I had to reduce dose by a couple of grams and then run two double shot runs to get enough coffee out.

Second bag of coffee I explained the situation to coffee angel and they changed setting to 3 and it's working nicely now.

Out of curiosity I might pick up the non pressurised filters and try them with the finer grind. Can you tell me where you ordered from?

Bluefoam · 13-05-2020 6:22pm

willabur wrote: »

I have the sage bambino plus

I don't have a grinder yet but getting through coffee angel coffee quickly enough to not justify the outlay. First bag of coffee was ground espresso setting 1 in shop. The machine couldn't push through it. I had to reduce dose by a couple of grams and then run two double shot runs to get enough coffee out.

Second bag of coffee I explained the situation to coffee angel and they changed setting to 3 and it's working nicely now.

Out of curiosity I might pick up the non pressurised filters and try them with the finer grind. Can you tell me where you ordered from?

I had a very difficult time getting to them... Ordered from Sage originally, but they had to cancel the order because they were out of stock. I then got on to customer care and they were able to scrounge a non packaged pair and get them to me... But that's it until they restock, which is slow due to covid... I did find some on eBay in Australia... They are pretty much sold out worldwide.

Technocentral · 13-05-2020 7:04pm

Bluefoam wrote: »

Not sure I understand. Old basket pops out of the portafilter and new basket pops in. Very simple swap.

I read that you need to remove the plastic part for new basket to fit, it said that on comments for only one I could find that people said would fit, waiting for it to come from China. This one.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B01JRH3DMS/ref=cm_sw_r_apa_i_6AdVEb6A6THAM

Gooey Looey · 13-05-2020 7:07pm

Technocentral wrote: »

I read that you need to remove the plastic part for new basket to fit, it said that on comments for only one I could find that people said would fit, waiting for it to come from China. This one.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B01JRH3DMS/ref=cm_sw_r_apa_i_6AdVEb6A6THAM

You don't remove anything, they just fit in

Bluefoam · 13-05-2020 7:07pm

Technocentral wrote: »

I read that you need to remove the plastic part for new basket to fit, it said that on comments for only one I could find that people said would fit, waiting for it to come from China. This one.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B01JRH3DMS/ref=cm_sw_r_apa_i_6AdVEb6A6THAM

Mine fit without the need to remove the plastic base from the portafilter. Some people say to keep it, others say dump it...

Technocentral · 13-05-2020 7:23pm

Bluefoam wrote: »

Mine fit without the need to remove the plastic base from the portafilter. Some people say to keep it, others say dump it...

It's a pity its so difficult sourcing those baskets, I ordered mine last week said mid to end of June delivery time.

Gooey Looey · 13-05-2020 7:24pm

Bluefoam wrote: »

Mine fit without the need to remove the plastic base from the portafilter. Some people say to keep it, others say dump it...

Yeah I've been considering that, I remove and clean mine fully every few days it gets manky if left

Gooey Looey · 13-05-2020 7:26pm

Technocentral wrote: »

It's a pity its so difficult sourcing those baskets, I ordered mine last week said mid to end of June delivery time.

Amazon delivery times are crazy these days, don't need them, that's just worst case scenario. I've ordered stuff that was expected delivery the end of June and is already dispatched

Technocentral · 13-05-2020 7:33pm

Gooey Looey wrote: »

Amazon delivery times are crazy these days, don't need them, that's just worst case scenario. I've ordered stuff that was expected delivery the end of June and is already dispatched

Said it was dispatched May 8th, don't believe them though, easy thing to say.

Bluefoam · 14-05-2020 8:13am

Technocentral wrote: »

I read that you need to remove the plastic part for new basket to fit, it said that on comments for only one I could find that people said would fit, waiting for it to come from China. This one.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B01JRH3DMS/ref=cm_sw_r_apa_i_6AdVEb6A6THAM

I just had a look at that link & it seems to be a 51mm basket... The Bambino takes a 54mm.. I'd double check that it's right.

Bluefoam · 14-05-2020 10:08am

Aghh... This is wrecking my head...

Yesterday, I got a good shot.
Grind size 8, 17 seconds
The basket was slightly over filled & the puc stuck to the head (but a nice enough shot).

Tried the same today, but dropped the grind time to 16.6 seconds... no extraction...

Increased the grind incrementally until I got an extraction at 14 grind size, but the shot wasn't good, infact it was far from drinkable.

I'm pulling my hair out... All fun though.

Have ordered a stash of Kaph blend, so hoping I don't waste too much of that.

Technocentral · 14-05-2020 10:11am

Bluefoam wrote: »

I just had a look at that link & it seems to be a 51mm basket... The Bambino takes a 54mm.. I'd double check that it's right.

My mistake, I have a Dedica I thought baskets were the same as Bambino.

Technocentral · 14-05-2020 10:15am

Bluefoam wrote: »

Aghh... This is wrecking my head...

Yesterday, I got a good shot.
Grind size 8, 17 seconds
The basket was slightly over filled & the puc stuck to the head (but a nice enough shot).

Tried the same today, but dropped the grind time to 16.6 seconds... no extraction...

Increased the grind incrementally until I got an extraction at 14 grind size, but the shot wasn't good, infact it was far from drinkable.

I'm pulling my hair out... All fun though.

Have ordered a stash of Kaph blend, so hoping I don't waste too much of that.

I have a different, cheaper machine but yeah its frustrating, sometimes 4/4 coffees extract sometimes one just drips a little bit or not at all, I have to grind at setting 20 and just fill the basket, I just tamp to flatten coffee (basically weight of tamper) if I press even a tiny bit harder nothing comes out, I wonder do even 1000 euro plus machines have this problem?

The Hound Gone Wild · 14-05-2020 11:31am

Bluefoam wrote: »

Aghh... This is wrecking my head...

Yesterday, I got a good shot.
Grind size 8, 17 seconds
The basket was slightly over filled & the puc stuck to the head (but a nice enough shot).

Tried the same today, but dropped the grind time to 16.6 seconds... no extraction...

Increased the grind incrementally until I got an extraction at 14 grind size, but the shot wasn't good, infact it was far from drinkable.

I'm pulling my hair out... All fun though.

Have ordered a stash of Kaph blend, so hoping I don't waste too much of that.

Are you weighing your input and output? Are you pulling doubles or singles?

Bluefoam · 14-05-2020 11:34am

The Hound Gone Wild wrote: »

Are you weighing your input and output? Are you pulling doubles or singles?

Brewing doubles. Going to reduce the quantity & lighter tamp. I've burned through a bag of coffee over the past few days, so waiting for a restock...

alec76 · 17-05-2020 11:31am

Technocentral wrote: »

It's a pity its so difficult sourcing those baskets, I ordered mine last week said mid to end of June delivery time.

58 mm would be the industry standard for the baskets,no problems of finding those...
Ones you’ve got non pressurised basket you might be interesting in bottomless portafilter ( the easy way to learn how to pull perfect shots )
Not sure if it is easy find for this particular product.

alec76 · 17-05-2020 11:37am

Bluefoam wrote: »

Aghh... This is wrecking my head...

Yesterday, I got a good shot.
Grind size 8, 17 seconds
The basket was slightly over filled & the puc stuck to the head (but a nice enough shot).

Tried the same today, but dropped the grind time to 16.6 seconds... no extraction...

Increased the grind incrementally until I got an extraction at 14 grind size, but the shot wasn't good, infact it was far from drinkable.

I'm pulling my hair out... All fun though.

Have ordered a stash of Kaph blend, so hoping I don't waste too much of that.

You definitely should use scales to weight input /output.....
It is all learning curve and practice.... Better machines and grinders give you SAME ,CONSISTENT results with less effort, but even with Sage/Delonghi you will get perfect shots sooner or later.

Bluefoam · 17-05-2020 12:48pm

Oh no! Before I realised what I was doing... I started logging my progress. I'm very sad now...

Grind: 14 sec, 15 size, 17.9g
Output: 35.7g, 15.9 seconds, 17/05 sour

The Hound Gone Wild · 17-05-2020 2:56pm

Bluefoam wrote: »

Oh no! Before I realised what I was doing... I started logging my progress. I'm very sad now...

Grind: 14 sec, 15 size, 17.9g
Output: 35.7g, 15.9 seconds, 17/05 sour

17.9g is a huge dose for the 54mm baskets. Drop the dose to 16g and aim for 34g in the cup in 25-28 seconds.

Keep your grind where it is, drop the dose and see what happens, then adjust the grind.

alec76 · 17-05-2020 3:26pm

When it is 18 g at 16 sec, hardly possible to get 16g in 25-28 sec with the same grind settings, otherwise totally agree.

The Hound Gone Wild · 17-05-2020 3:34pm

alec76 wrote: »

When it is 18 g at 16 sec, hardly possible to get 16g in 25-28 sec with the same grind settings, otherwise totally agree.

At the start it's good to see what changing only one parameter does. The grind will need to drop by about 5 clicks I'd imagine before he's close.

Damo 2k9 · 18-05-2020 11:51am

The Hound Gone Wild wrote: »

17.9g is a huge dose for the 54mm baskets. Drop the dose to 16g and aim for 34g in the cup in 25-28 seconds.

Keep your grind where it is, drop the dose and see what happens, then adjust the grind.

I started on 18g in the basket when I bought my Barista Express, it was veryyy hit and miss tho. Dropped to 16g as someone told me 18g was a lot for that basket, much better results.

I still find it hard to get past 25 seconds, even on like a 3 grind setting. The coffee is really nice tho.

Bluefoam · 18-05-2020 1:36pm

I just wanted to say: agggghhhhhhhhhh

That is all.

Planet X · 18-05-2020 1:44pm

When I had a GC, I used the pressurised basket at first.....for a while. Nice crema n all that but reading on line, was told most people don't use them, not a natural flow. It's the pin hole one right?

If so, I'd stash it away and use the normal basket. Takes a while to get it sorted re grind size etc but persevere. I used to weigh and time everything etc but after a while you'll get the hand of it. Actually, it was my wife who suggested to grind coarser (Baratza Encore). Hate to admit it but she was right. Too fine and not alot was coming out, portafilter was working it's way off and destroying the gaff!! Too much pressure, water wasn't coming through the coffee.

Like now, Rocket Appartamento, I had to buy the E61 thermometer to get used to how much to flush out the "boiling water" to get it down to the right brewing temp. It cost me about €100 or so. But essential to begin with. I was all over the place.
Trial and error and a few dozen brews it's second nature now and I don't really need the E61 brewhead thermometer. (Won't be selling it though, I don't think

)

Correct me if I'm wrong but you never see other espresso makers using a pressurised basket.

Bluefoam · 18-05-2020 1:56pm

Planet X wrote: »

When I had a GC, I used the pressurised basket at first.....for a while. Nice crema n all that but reading on line, was told most people don't use them, not a natural flow. It's the pin hole one right?

If so, I'd stash it away and use the normal basket. Takes a while to get it sorted re grind size etc but persevere. I used to weigh and time everything etc but after a while you'll get the hand of it. Actually, it was my wife who suggested to grind coarser (Baratza Encore). Hate to admit it but she was right. Too fine and not alot was coming out, portafilter was working it's way off and destroying the gaff!! Too much pressure, water wasn't coming through the coffee.

Like now, Rocket Appartamento, I had to buy the E61 thermometer to get used to how much to flush out the "boiling water" to get it down to the right brewing temp. It cost me about €100 or so. But essential to begin with. I was all over the place.
Trial and error and a few dozen brews it's second nature now and I don't really need the E61 brewhead thermometer. (Won't be selling it though, I don't think )

Correct me if I'm wrong but you never see other espresso makers using a pressurised basket.

Not using pressurised baskets

Bluefoam · 18-05-2020 3:00pm

14 sec, 15 grind, 17.9, 35.7g out, 15.9 seconds, 17/05 sour, dry puck
13.6 sec, 15 grind, 17g, 31g out, 15.3 seconds 17/05 bitter, wet puck, bad
15 sec, 12 grind, 17.63g, 9g out, 23.39 seconds,, 18/05 not good
14 sec, 12 grind. 17g, 1.7g out, 15seconds, 18/05 nothing to show
13 sec, 12 grind, 15.26g, 23g out, 16sec, 18/05 slightly sloppy puck

I need to stop drinking coffee for a while... I'm not sure where to go next with this. Might aim for a 16g grind at size 13... I'm nowhere near getting the extract time I'm looking for, although taste is a bit better. I wasn't expecting to spend a week trying to get the basics.

Squidgy Black · 18-05-2020 3:45pm

Bluefoam wrote: »

14 sec, 15 grind, 17.9, 35.7g out, 15.9 seconds, 17/05 sour, dry puck
13.6 sec, 15 grind, 17g, 31g out, 15.3 seconds 17/05 bitter, wet puck, bad
15 sec, 12 grind, 17.63g, 9g out, 23.39 seconds,, 18/05 not good
14 sec, 12 grind. 17g, 1.7g out, 15seconds, 18/05 nothing to show
13 sec, 12 grind, 15.26g, 23g out, 16sec, 18/05 slightly sloppy puck

I need to stop drinking coffee for a while... I'm not sure where to go next with this. Might aim for a 16g grind at size 13... I'm nowhere near getting the extract time I'm looking for, although taste is a bit better. I wasn't expecting to spend a week trying to get the basics.

Try and keep the amount your putting into the portafilter the same and the output, you need consistency to try and get the right variables.

So for example, use 16g every time and get 32g out. Then you try and adjust the grind finer to get closer to your desired time. Try and tamp evenly and with the same pressure each time.

The less variables you change the easier it'll be to dial in.

Bluefoam · 18-05-2020 3:56pm

Squidgy Black wrote: »

Try and keep the amount your putting into the portafilter the same and the output, you need consistency to try and get the right variables.

So for example, use 16g every time and get 32g out. Then you try and adjust the grind finer to get closer to your desired time. Try and tamp evenly and with the same pressure each time.

The less variables you change the easier it'll be to dial in.

That seems like a reasonable approach... I'm gonna take a break from it till tomorrow, for everything I've listed above, there's more that wasn't worth recording...

I feel like I'm at least understanding what I'm doing a bit more, so hopefully should get closer to a good shot soon...

Technocentral · 21-05-2020 11:15am

Technocentral wrote: »

It's a pity its so difficult sourcing those baskets, I ordered mine last week said mid to end of June delivery time.

Actually it arrived this morning, going to try it later.

Technocentral · 21-05-2020 2:34pm

Just had my first coffee with non pressurised basket, dialled Sage Pro to12 and it produced a richer espresso than I could get with my pressurised basket at grind size 20 which I had to use due to it choking Dedica on a lower grind size. Delighted for the change around a tenner made.

Bluefoam · 22-05-2020 11:47am

The cappucino I'm getting is usually quite tastey... But the espresso isn't so good... Any advice would be appreciated:

15 grind, 17.9g, --- Out: 35.7g, 15.9 seconds, 17/05 sour, dry puck, decent *
15 grind, 17g, --- Out: 31g, 15.3 seconds 17/05 bitter, wet puck, bad
12 grind, 17.63g, --- Out: 9g, 23.39 seconds,, 18/05 not good
12 grind. 17g, --- Out: 1.7g, 15seconds, 18/05 nothing to show
12 grind, 15.26g, --- Out: 23g, 16 seconds, 18/05 slightly sloppy puck
13 grind, 15.93g, --- Out: 27.7, 20 seconds, 18/05 wetish puck
13 grind, 16.73, --- Out: 30.85g, 16 seconds, 19/05 wet puck stuck to PF*
12 grind, 15.64, --- Out: 32.29g, 17.54 sec, 20/05 bitter, wet puk stk 2 Pk
12 grind, 15.7g, --- Out: 17g, 21.94 seconds, sour
12 grind, 16.74g, --- Out: 28.71g, 16.63 seconds,
11 grind, 16.77g, --- Out: 9.96g. 22.6 seconds
11 grind, 16g, --- Out: 1g, 24.51 seconds

adrian522 · 22-05-2020 1:56pm

You need to change 1 thing at a time. So start with 17g, grind 12 (or whatever) and pull the shot until you get to around 35g. How long does it take. If it takes longer than 30 seconds, change to a coarser grind setting, if it takes shorter than 25 seconds go with a finer grind.

Bluefoam · 22-05-2020 3:34pm

Got some advice over at the sage user group on Facebook...

14 grind at 19g... Here's what I got:
27.8g, 19.36 seconds... It's a huge improvement, I'm much closer now!!!

HELP!! (coffee extraction)

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