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Luas Delay - South Dublin Disaster

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  • 30-10-2002 1:36pm
    #1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 175 ✭✭


    Latest Media reports now put the Luas for starting in 2005 - another government disaster........


Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,564 ✭✭✭Typedef


    I wouldn't mind but a Japanese company offered to build an underground for Dublin (for free) and in exchange the company would operate the underground for thirty years, at which time it would give the system to the state free of charge.

    Boggle, the great intellectuals who run the government saw fit to turn down that offer.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,643 ✭✭✭Jak


    Aye Luas has been plagued with issues .. the management are a nervous lot at this stage.

    Do you have a source for that Typedef by any chance. Never heard of that offer, and certainly sounds like a nice comment to have stored up for future conferences.

    JAK.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,564 ✭✭✭Typedef


    Do you have a source for that Typedef by any chance. Never heard of that offer
    Edit: I hadn't either, but was told by a taxi driver that it was gospel. Apparently he was right, as according to Garret Fitzgerald (former Taoiseach) on the Good Morning Ireland Program 8th of July 1997, Mr Fitzgerald had claimed a Japanese consortium was preparied to foot the bill for an underground system as opposed to a Light Rail System ie the Luas. Reference.
    On the “Morning Ireland” programme of 8 July, Dr. Garret FitzGerald said it may cost a little more to go underground but we can afford it and the Luas tram is not the appropriate system for Dublin. There is a Japanese consortium prepared to put this in on a 3 per cent loan over 30 years as long as they get the contract for running it. I do not believe CIE is in love with the Luas tram but it is intent on building a system, underground or overground, which it and it alone can operate. If this is not the case, why has it proposed underground systems in the past? I inform the board of CIE that the underground system Dublin deserves is within its grasp. It can have it, and with this Minister, I think they will get it.

    Reference Senead Eireann Volume 151 10th July 1997.
    Praise Garret.
    http://www.pmckenna.com/media/statements/1998/98.05.04.html
    Green MEP Patricia McKenna today reacted angrily to reports that the Government was about to opt for an underground option in the building of the Luas light railway in Dublin. The announcement is expected one week after the publication of a report from the British firm of engineering consultants, W.S. Atkins. The report advises against an underground option, estimating that this will raise the cost of the project from £268m to £500m

    The European Commission has already stated that "in view of the delays which would be caused by a decision to underground part of this project, such a decision would therefore exclude it from funding under the present Community Support Framework".

    Which implys that an underground system for Dublin was passed over so as to make use of Structural funding for the Luas.

    Control of the asset resides with the company who builds it for thirty years under a public private partnership.
    From http://www.ireland.com/focus/election_2002/infrastructure.htm

    Other References to undergrounds or to putting Luas partly underground.
    http://www.dublinunderground.com/
    http://www.designbuildmag.com/June2002/inthenewsJune02.asp

    Here is a proposed metro on the same topic.
    Ireland is betting big on design-build

    The Irish government has begun procuring phase one of its 70-km-long, $6.5-billion Dublin metro as part of a nationwide strategy to use design-build-finance to place new infrastructure. The government’s recently created Railway Procurement Agency plans to prequalify consortia this summer.

    The full metro project includes about 14 km of tunnel. The first phase will include a 10- to 16-km line to the airport, the length depending on which of three possible routes is chosen. A short spur heading west above the city to Blanchardstown also may be included. The system may extend to the Town of Bray, on the southeastern coast, and loop west around the city back to the center.

    Ireland has eagerly embraced design-build, usually as part of a policy of privatizing infrastructure. Another major project under way is the $525-million, 4.5-km-long state-funded twin road tunnel near Dublin’s port, won in late 2000 by a British/Irish/Japanese consortium. Even as design-build contracts for state schools, water systems and other assets are being awarded, the National Roads Authority has begun bidding the first of 11 design-build-finance-operate toll highways worth an estimated $1.1 billion


    More here http://www.irrs.ie/147%20News.htm
    DUBLIN METRO

    The Light Rail Project Office has begun preliminary work on the metro and a preliminary public consultation has commenced. Responsibility for the development of the metro will be given to the RPA that the Minister proposes to establish when the necessary legislation has been enacted. The consultation process is being undertaken on behalf of the Department of Public Enterprise by consultants Ernst & Young. The consultation document is available on the websites of the Department and of Ernst & Young.

    At the end of June, it was reported in the newspapers that the contract for the Dublin Metro system was expected to be signed in the autumn and that the project could be completed years ahead of schedule. They quoted a IR£5.7 billion (€7.24 billion) price tag at 2001 prices, which is an increase of IR£650 million (€825 million) on the 1999 forecast. As many as 30 major international consortia have already expressed interest in designing, building and operating the project. Consultants Ernst and Young, who are handling the process, have received 100 submissions and 30 of these are described as significant.

    It was reported that some of the bidding consortia have said they can build the project ahead of the 2007/8 schedule for the first lines at a cost of around IR£2 billion (€2.5 billion). The first phase is expected to be from Dublin Airport to the City Centre. A 23-minute journey time between the city centre and Dublin airport is being quoted, with line capacity quoted at 50,000 passengers per hour. The bulk of the network is targeted for completion by 2010, six years ahead of the original target.

    I've been Typedef. It's been real


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,643 ✭✭✭Jak


    Yah I was aware of the current LUAS plans and all that .. but that other bit at the start is very interesting, was a few years before I suppose I started paying attention.

    I can almost accept their reasoning though. Dependent on whether the new metro would be profitable (obviously some people believed strongly that it would be) and the potential loss of framework funding on offer (which may not have been on offer next time round if we persued a separate but comprehensive public transport solution) - we may have simply traded a few more years of short term transport network chaos for medium term financial gains (framework 'free' funding and eventual revenues). Though the earlier metro option would not be built quicker by any means than the Luas system and would/will encounter as many if not more obstacles and issues.

    So by taking the funding then for a surface light rail system, and passing on the PPP option, we got a new transport system (in theory eventually:rolleyes: ) and left our options open to apply for future framework funding for the underground option without trading out any initial revenues.

    I think that's right anyway ...

    Ta for the sources.

    JAK.


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