RTE report- pace of rent inflation slowing- but landlords leaving sector

Lux23 · 13-12-2018 4:56pm

runawaybishop wrote: »

People aren't becoming landlords, that's the problem. Rents are massively increased and yet landlords aren't signing up in their thousands due to the overregulation in the market. Honestly, you'd want to be mental or a huge corp to become a landlord these days

And you would want to be mental to choose life as a tenant in this country. I'm renting 13 years, and it's appalling what I am expected to pay for a hovel.

runawaybishop · 13-12-2018 4:58pm

Lux23 wrote: »

And you would want to be mental to choose life as a tenant in this country. I'm renting 13 years, and it's appalling what I am expected to pay for a hovel.

You think having less properties to rent will help with that?

listermint · 13-12-2018 4:59pm

The Student wrote: »

So the official figs released indicate a drop in both landlords and available properties. Are you suggesting that the drop is down solely to individual/accidental landlords.

If the return is so attractive why would anybody leave a sector with such good returns. Surely the time to get out would have been when the returns where not so good.

Perhaps landlords are leaving the market because of the anti landlord stance, the inability to evict non paying tenants, the risk involved does not reflect the reward if you are a small landlord and you get a rogue tenant.

Actually yes i would, Those figures are not high. And the presumption that they are professional landlords is just that.

A Presumption. There is no evidence that these were professional individuals that made a business of renting residential lettings.

The market is back up, people would obviously be offloading first homes. (pre partner homes) or homes they had been left through berievement or what not.

To tie the figures to some professional class of landlords exciting the sector is suspect to say the least and it obviously suits an agenda setter.

runawaybishop · 13-12-2018 5:04pm

listermint wrote: »

Actually yes i would, Those figures are not high. And the presumption that they are professional landlords is just that.

A Presumption. There is no evidence that these were professional individuals that made a business of renting residential lettings.

The market is back up, people would obviously be offloading first homes. (pre partner homes) or homes they had been left through berievement or what not.

To tie the figures to some professional class of landlords exciting the sector is suspect to say the least and it obviously suits an agenda setter.

We need more REITs who certainly will not rise the rent to the max as soon as possible. A sound bunch of lads indeed.

Lux23 · 13-12-2018 5:18pm

runawaybishop wrote: »

You think having less properties to rent will help with that?

No, but if there were more houses to buy maybe I would have gotten out of rental market faster. Surely the landlords are selling the houses to owner-occupiers if landlords aren't buying them? It's not like the houses are just disappearing because Jimmy is annoyed he can't charge whatever he likes?

Ray Palmer · 13-12-2018 5:20pm

listermint wrote: »

Actually yes i would, Those figures are not high. And the presumption that they are professional landlords is just that.

A Presumption. There is no evidence that these were professional individuals that made a business of renting residential lettings.

The market is back up, people would obviously be offloading first homes. (pre partner homes) or homes they had been left through berievement or what not.

To tie the figures to some professional class of landlords exciting the sector is suspect to say the least and it obviously suits an agenda setter.

80% of rental properties are owned as just one property rented. The is a very small number of large landlords in Ireland. There are very few "professional" landlords in the way you are suggesting

listermint · 13-12-2018 5:27pm

Ray Palmer wrote: »

80% of rental properties are owned as just one property rented. The is a very small number of large landlords in Ireland. There are very few "professional" landlords in the way you are suggesting

I didnt suggest it.

The OP did as did several others.

listermint · 13-12-2018 5:28pm

runawaybishop wrote: »

We need more REITs who certainly will not rise the rent to the max as soon as possible. A sound bunch of lads indeed.

Who said we do? I didnt.

But i will say that i was under a REIT for 3 years with no problems. Very professional setup and facilities guys onsite.

(that was my only experience of a REIT) not that im advocating for more of them either.

Moonjet · 13-12-2018 5:46pm

Ray Palmer wrote: »

80% of rental properties are owned as just one property rented.

Any source on this stat? Not doubting it's true, just like to see more detail.

DubCount · 13-12-2018 5:46pm

I must have read 100 or more threads on here where landlords (professional, accidental and former landlords who have already left the market) have said the volume of regulations (RPZs, discrimination against HAP, legal requirements on all notices and correspondence with tenants.....) together with inability to deal with non-paying or anti-social tenants, has made the risk/hastle v return just not worth it. Surprise, surprise, there are stats released showing rents increasing, but landlords still leaving the market. Sadly, there are just easier ways to turn a coin.

Being a landlord is an investment choice, not an act of social conscience. The more regulations we get (increased notice periods and fines of up to €30k for breaching RPZ rules just examples of the latest kick to Landlords) and the more regulations that are floated (banning evictions for sale or family members to move in, banning evictions outright etc.), the more landlords leave, and the more expensive renting will become.

We're making the same mistake over and over again, and expecting a different result. The next set of stats will show more rent inflation and less landlords/rental properties. Why would anyone expect anything else?

AlmightyCushion · 13-12-2018 5:51pm

DubCount wrote: »

I must have read 100 or more threads on here where landlords (professional, accidental and former landlords who have already left the market) have said the volume of regulations (RPZs, discrimination against HAP, legal requirements on all notices and correspondence with tenants.....) together with inability to deal with non-paying or anti-social tenants, has made the risk/hastle v return just not worth it. Surprise, surprise, there are stats released showing rents increasing, but landlords still leaving the market. Sadly, there are just easier ways to turn a coin.

Being a landlord is an investment choice, not an act of social conscience. The more regulations we get (increased notice periods and fines of up to €30k for breaching RPZ rules just examples of the latest kick to Landlords) and the more regulations that are floated (banning evictions for sale or family members to move in, banning evictions outright etc.), the more landlords leave, and the more expensive renting will become.

We're making the same mistake over and over again, and expecting a different result. The next set of stats will show more rent inflation and less landlords/rental properties. Why would anyone expect anything else?

I love that you consider receiving a fine for breaking the law as a "kick". The cheek of the state for trying to implement consequences for breaking the law.

Moonjet · 13-12-2018 5:51pm

DubCount wrote: »

I must have read 100 or more threads on here where landlords (professional, accidental and former landlords who have already left the market) have said the volume of regulations (RPZs, discrimination against HAP, legal requirements on all notices and correspondence with tenants.....) together with inability to deal with non-paying or anti-social tenants, has made the risk/hastle v return just not worth it. Surprise, surprise, there are stats released showing rents increasing, but landlords still leaving the market. Sadly, there are just easier ways to turn a coin.

Being a landlord is an investment choice, not an act of social conscience. The more regulations we get (increased notice periods and fines of up to €30k for breaching RPZ rules just examples of the latest kick to Landlords) and the more regulations that are floated (banning evictions for sale or family members to move in, banning evictions outright etc.), the more landlords leave, and the more expensive renting will become.

We're making the same mistake over and over again, and expecting a different result. The next set of stats will show more rent inflation and less landlords/rental properties. Why would anyone expect anything else?

Banning evictions outright is so ridiculous an idea it could even drive the REITs away imo. What incentive would anyone have for paying their rent?

Looks like it's going ahead too:
https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/anti-eviction-bill-passed-in-the-dail-891878.html

Solidarity/PBP are complete loons.

KevinCavan · 13-12-2018 5:54pm

It’s quite possible landlords are taxed to the eyeballs, I don’t know, as I rent. But whatever is going on, the rents we pay here are nuts. In other European capitals and major European cities, rents are much lower, meaning tenants can still enjoy life. Here you are working to pay rent and quite possibly landlords are renting to fill the pockets of the revenue commissioners.

Mad_maxx · 13-12-2018 6:08pm

KevinCavan wrote: »

It’s quite possible landlords are taxed to the eyeballs, I don’t know, as I rent. But whatever is going on, the rents we pay here are nuts. In other European capitals and major European cities, rents are much lower, meaning tenants can still enjoy life. Here you are working to pay rent and quite possibly landlords are renting to fill the pockets of the revenue commissioners.

Which European capital with the level of wealth Dublin has is cheaper?

Vienna is cheaper to rent but more expensive to buy.

KevinCavan · 13-12-2018 7:22pm

Mad_maxx wrote: »

Which European capital with the level of wealth Dublin has is cheaper?

Vienna is cheaper to rent but more expensive to buy.

German cities for one are much cheaper than Dublin or Cork and wages can be quite high.

The_Conductor · 13-12-2018 7:35pm

Moonjet wrote: »

Any source on this stat? Not doubting it's true, just like to see more detail.

Page 2 of the RTB annual report published last July states:

The overall landlord profile has remained relatively stable with the majority of the 174,000 landlords (86%) owning 1-2 properties.

Link here

DubCount · 13-12-2018 8:06pm

AlmightyCushion wrote: »

I love that you consider receiving a fine for breaking the law as a "kick". The cheek of the state for trying to implement consequences for breaking the law.

So a LL renovates a property, in good faith believes this has changed the nature of the property, but is ruled not to be a change in nature by the RTB, is the subject of a fine of €30k.

A LL rounds up the 4% calculation in stead of rounding down. Its a technical breach of the law, is that worthy of a several thousand Euro fine.

I have no problem with enforcing the law of the land. But what about tenants overholding, or tenants not paying rent, or tenants subletting property without permission, or tenants damaging property.....

If you only change the law in favour of tenants, landlords will leave, and tenants will pay more.

Hack12 · 13-12-2018 8:09pm

Can people not see wood for the threes on why rents are so high. They are exceeding the "boom" for reasons that landlords have no control over.

My property which was my PPR in the boom would have rented for E1,100 and it is rented for E1,300 at present. So an increase of E200 per month (it was down to E850 per month which lead to me to restructure the mortgage with the bank).

- Take in that LPT is payable by the landlord (mine is E30ish a month) and is not tax deductible. NPPR was there previously. Council taxes in other jurisdictions are paid by the tenant so this is added to the rent in Ireland. The State can increase the LPT up to 15% and yet this cannot be added to the rent for 2 years if an RPZ area and that is only within the 4% allowed under RPZ areas.
- You were only allowed expense 75%, 80% of your mortgage interest and this is to go up to 100% finally next year. This may help rents come down as the cost of doing business will reduce.
- Additional income taxes on rental income.
- Not allowed claim loan interest on repairs etc.
- RTB fees which were not there.
- Additional legislation to deal with.
- The list goes on....

The cost of being a landlord has only worked in the favour of the State as they generate more tax and also turned the private sector into there local authority housing department.

All of this has lead to people leaving and as I said in my previous post I can't wait to be not to be a landlord. If the anti eviction bill does become law, I can see a lot of banks getting jingle mail as the only reason people have not sold is because they are still in negative equity. You could be out of bankruptcy quicker than getting out of being a landlord!!!!

The madness has got to stop and good tenants looked after and equally good landlord's are protected or else there will be no investment. The communists in the dail will have the country destroyed if they keep going on like this with no investment etc coming in just as we're hitting full employment again.

Borzoi · 15-12-2018 2:24pm

KevinCavan wrote: »

German cities for one are much cheaper than Dublin or Cork and wages can be quite high.

Yes they are, but why...
Because the tenant typically gets an empty white box, and must return it in the same condition to the landlord. No furniture, no washing machine, no kitchen (many renters buy the kitchen from the previous tenant) . A give it a kick of white paint before handback to LL too

I would dearly love to be a LL in those circumstances ;-)

The_Conductor · 15-12-2018 3:01pm

Borzoi wrote: »

Yes they are, but why...
Because the tenant typically gets an empty white box, and must return it in the same condition to the landlord. No furniture, no washing machine, no kitchen (many renters buy the kitchen from the previous tenant) . A give it a kick of white paint before handback to LL too

I would dearly love to be a LL in those circumstances ;-)

Switzerland is the same- the regulatory authority there employ inspectors who check that the cupboards have been cleaned and the painting is to a satisfactory standard- before they approve the landlord pay the deposit to the renter (and the deposit is a standard 3 month's rent).

White box- surgically clean- and returned in identically a fashion + 3 months rent as a deposit. I'd love to be a landlord there!

Fol20 · 15-12-2018 3:31pm

listermint wrote: »

Actually yes i would, Those figures are not high. And the presumption that they are professional landlords is just that.

A Presumption. There is no evidence that these were professional individuals that made a business of renting residential lettings.

The market is back up, people would obviously be offloading first homes. (pre partner homes) or homes they had been left through berievement or what not.

To tie the figures to some professional class of landlords exciting the sector is suspect to say the least and it obviously suits an agenda setter.

And as you even point out yourself. Everything you just said is a presumption with no hard facts. The hard facts are that there are less rental in the market today and there was a few years ago. If supply goes down in any market, do you think cost goes down with it?

Fol20 · 15-12-2018 3:33pm

AlmightyCushion wrote: »

I love that you consider receiving a fine for breaking the law as a "kick". The cheek of the state for trying to implement consequences for breaking the law.

Its a kick as its so one sided. There no “kick” in the teeth for tenants

Fol20 · 15-12-2018 3:40pm

Borzoi wrote: »

Yes they are, but why...
Because the tenant typically gets an empty white box, and must return it in the same condition to the landlord. No furniture, no washing machine, no kitchen (many renters buy the kitchen from the previous tenant) . A give it a kick of white paint before handback to LL too

I would dearly love to be a LL in those circumstances ;-)

I knew about everything there bar the kitchen until i recently talked to one of my german friends in Munich. I would be ok with something like this as it could then actually become a somewhat passive investment unlike today where you can still actually get calls for how to replace lifht bulbs and how to use a boiler.

l5auim2pjnt8qx · 15-12-2018 4:02pm

It's seems to be a myth out there that only Ireland and the Uk are obsessed with home ownership, as you can see from a graph below that was compiled in 2015 that many countries in Europe are way above Ireland and The UK ,

I've also heard that Dublin is now comparable if not above London in rental prices, this is ridiculous and is being feed through to government to keep multinationals happy ........I was talking to someone recently who told me his daughter is paying 36K annually for a 1 bed type bedsit 32 sq meteres in London this covers her management fees and property tax (financial services position)that she has to pay as a tenant, he also said that she loves were she lives as the location suits all her needs ,these prices are unheard of in Dublin and I would state that Dublin Rental prices are undervalued as tenants here don't have to pay for MC and property charges , when you factor in these charges to Dublin inclusive of rtb charges €90 for each tenant a Landlord has to pay to the RTB . decent 3 beds properties in Dublin should be no lower than €3,000 per month - which alot of reits are now charging and more.

People asking ,"why rental prices so high" Dublin is booming more so than any other european city in the eurozone certainly will be outpacing London as London is now taking a hit ,its proximity on the edge of Europe its relatively a low population for the size of the country and it abundance of water ,cough.cough low tax base make it hughely attractive for Corporations and emaployees from oversea's alike. So in the not so distant future people will get use to talking about Dublin ,London & maybe Paris as expensive cities to live in as I don't see a population reduction for the forseeable future.
This is a list of countries by home ownership rate, the ratio of owner-occupied units to total residential units in a specified area.[1]

The government are well aware of this, with small Landlords out of the way, governments are paving the way for Vulture funds and share holders to increase there profits even further as they take over more and more properties from the dwlinging number of small type Landlords.So get use to rental prices rises in 2019.

Rank Country Home ownership
rate(%) Date of
Information
1 Romania 96.4 2015[2]
2 Singapore 90.7 2017[3]
3 Slovakia 90.3 2014[2]
4 China 90 2014[4]
5 Cuba 90.0 2014[5]
6 Croatia 89.7 2014[2]
7 Lithuania 89.4 2015[2]
8 India 86.6 2011[6]
9 Hungary 86.3 2015[2]
10 Russia 84.0 2012[7]
11 Poland 83.5 2014[2]
12 Oman 83 2014[8]
13 Norway 82.8 2015[2]
14 Bulgaria 82.3 2015[2]
15 Estonia 81.5 2015[2]
16 Latvia 80.2 2015[2]
17 Malta 80.0 2014[2]
18 Mexico 80.0 2009[9]
19 Thailand 80.0 2002[10]
20 Spain 78.2 2015[2]
21 Czech Republic 78.0 2015[2]
22 Iceland 77.8 2015[2]
23 Slovenia 76.2 2015[2]
24 Trinidad and Tobago 76.0 2013[11]
25 Portugal 74.9 2014[2]
26 Brazil 74.4 2008[12]
27 Greece 74.0 2014[2]
28 Cyprus 73.1 2014[2]
29 Italy 72.9 2014[2]
30 Finland 72.7 2015[2]
31 Luxembourg 72.5 2014[2]
32 Belgium 71.3 2016[2]
33 Sweden 70.6 2015[2]
34 Ireland 68.6 2014[13]
35 Netherlands 67.8 2015[2]
36 Canada 67.6 2013[14]
37 Israel 67.3 2014[15]
38 Turkey 67.3 2011[16]
39 Australia 65.5 2016[17]
40 France 65.0 2014[2]
41 United States United States 64.5 2014[18]
42 United Kingdom 63.5 2015[2]

bleary · 15-12-2018 4:11pm

The_Conductor wrote: »

Switzerland is the same- the regulatory authority there employ inspectors who check that the cupboards have been cleaned and the painting is to a satisfactory standard- before they approve the landlord pay the deposit to the renter (and the deposit is a standard 3 month's rent).

White box- surgically clean- and returned in identically a fashion + 3 months rent as a deposit. I'd love to be a landlord there!

Not ideal over there either. The first place i experienced rent control. The apartments are largely run by insurance companies. You will only be allowed rent somewhere commensurate with your income. Hard to shift someone when they get a lease. The result?
People get a contract then sublet the places rather than releasing back to the market. Often for multiples of what they pay.
Then you spend your time hiding from the apartment management as the sub letter. I thought it was a terrible system. Now Ireland is taking on the worst parts of it

Old diesel · 15-12-2018 8:38pm

How much extra does it cost to provide Kitchen, washing machine, dryer and other facilities.

Vs the white box solution.

If someone is saying that part of the reason Germany can rent cheaper is because the German landlord doesnt have to supply kitchen and appliances then imo a cost calculation should be available for this.

For me a Kitchen is a fit once and leave it until you get bored/or it wears out job.

I also suspect that what will happen in Ireland is - you will get the white box - but you won't get the discount or the long lease.

Fol20 · 15-12-2018 8:59pm

Old diesel wrote: »

How much extra does it cost to provide Kitchen, washing machine, dryer and other facilities.

Vs the white box solution.

If someone is saying that part of the reason Germany can rent cheaper is because the German landlord doesnt have to supply kitchen and appliances then imo a cost calculation should be available for this.

For me a Kitchen is a fit once and leave it until you get bored/or it wears out job.

I also suspect that what will happen in Ireland is - you will get the white box - but you won't get the discount or the long lease.

Well kitchens cost a minimum of 3-5k depending on size. Then add couches of say another 1k. Beds 1k. You get the hint. These do cost money which are added to the rental cost. Most furniture might last 7-10years if your lucky. So yes they do make costs go up. Its not the main reason but it does add to it.

Your right. In the current state of our market, if you are offered a whitebox. Potentially it might be slightly less but if there isnt enough places on the market. Why do people complain that ll are greedy. People are all greedy. If your a specialist in your field where demand is high. You also command a good salary. I dont see any issues with it.

The_Conductor · 15-12-2018 9:09pm

Fol20 wrote: »

Well kitchens cost a minimum of 3-5k depending on size. Then add couches of say another 1k. Beds 1k. You get the hint. These do cost money which are added to the rental cost. Most furniture might last 7-10years if your lucky. So yes they do make costs go up. Its not the main reason but it does add to it.

Your right. In the current state of our market, if you are offered a whitebox. Potentially it might be slightly less but if there isnt enough places on the market. Why do people complain that ll are greedy. People are all greedy. If your a specialist in your field where demand is high. You also command a good salary. I dont see any issues with it.

The bigger cost is sorting issues that arise with white goods- its 100-150 for a call out for pretty much any appliance- and if you're unlucky, you could have a few in quick succession- which rapidly becomes extortionate for a small landlord- but is fine for a larger one- as they just employ a 'handyman' to sort these type issues as they arise.

On the continent- if white goods break or need to be replaced- they are the tenant's issue. However, the flipside of the coin is- I can buy my own appliances- and bring them with me where-ever I move- so I have a nice set of brushed steel kitchen appliances that I know are reliable.

There are pros and cons to each approach- however, I honestly think that both tenants and landlords are better served by the unfurnished model- and the Irish/UK model- just seems nutty to me.

Fol20 · 15-12-2018 9:45pm

Conpletely agree conductor. Ongoing maintenace does add up alright. On thenother end of the spectrum. I do think the knock on effect if its up to tenants to buy their own stuff is that furniture and bedding shops may loose out as not as much stuff would be bought i suspect. Iv seen some places in the states in in germany and france where the forego couches etc. i would prefer their model however i do think there will knockon effect for supplemwntary companies

robp · 16-12-2018 1:39am

Borzoi wrote: »

Yes they are, but why...
Because the tenant typically gets an empty white box, and must return it in the same condition to the landlord. No furniture, no washing machine, no kitchen (many renters buy the kitchen from the previous tenant) . A give it a kick of white paint before handback to LL too

I would dearly love to be a LL in those circumstances ;-)

Unfurnished apartments might help keep costs low in Germany but it is probably only a limited factor. Factors that are probably more important are Germanys far older population, smaller families more high rise often low immigration rates means there is just less demand over there.

RTE report- pace of rent inflation slowing- but landlords leaving sector

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