DB No real time information on Sunday

Its pointless as buses won't be running to schedule and are all over the place.

Why does it have to work on timing though, why not swap to distance instead on days like this? So the system could tell me my bus is 2700 metres away (and it wouldnt matter if its a scheduled or extra service) and I could see this distance get smaller and smaller and then make my way to the bus stop.
Clearly its not as good as being told in minutes, but its vastly superior to getting no information at all.

Obviously this isn't something that could be dreamt up this morning. But in general it wouldn't be a difficult thing for someone to look at each of the routes and work out the distances. (Theres a reasonable chance this information has already been correlated so would just be needed to be input into the RTPI system).

Was RTPI working for those routes that weren't affected?

Was there any message on display?

Victor wrote: »

The NTA RealTime app doesn't even use the same algorithm as Dublin Bus.

Algorithm?

devnull wrote: »

I believe the NTA feed is a raw feed lifted straight from the information coming from the vehicles, it's not run through any systems or filters before being published.

Then how do you get phantom buses? It's a glorified digital timetable

Real time implies that you know where the bus actually is. We now know that phantom buses are the symptom of inserting the ETA from the timetable if a bus is scheduled and not actively on route... In reality the bus is just simply not there. Buses estimated and not real time should be highlighted, and not camouflaged with the real time info to try hoodwink us into thinking it's something akin to the luas info.

Therefore it's a glorified timetable. The fact that it can't work on non standard days is because it's difficult but instead of trying to tackle the challenges it seems everyone has just shrugged their shoulders and said *I dunno* ... It could be done correctly but there's just no will at all

lxflyer wrote: »

Have you some kind of crystal ball that can accurately predict traffic conditions on days such as Sunday and St Patrick's Day?

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

Why does it have to work on timing though, why not swap to distance instead on days like this? So the system could tell me my bus is 2700 metres away (and it wouldnt matter if its a scheduled or extra service) and I could see this distance get smaller and smaller and then make my way to the bus stop.
Clearly its not as good as being told in minutes, but its vastly superior to getting no information at all.

My earlier suggested solution. (though wouldn't work for diversions).

Sam Russell wrote: »

I do not know about how the system works but I have been on a bus that was full and so went out of service - so presumably that would be a phantom bus.

A significant issue and one which should not have been allowed to develop.

A Full Bus is just that,Full,but remaining in-service.
Bus services are dynamic,an so the bus which is full at Georges St,may effectively empty at the Central Bank.

A Full Bus should be dealt with by the Driver managing the load,ensuring that the total capacity of the vehicle is utilized,and if required,denying access at stops.

Displaying,or being instructed to display, "Out-Of-Service" on a vehicle which is merely Full,is in no way acceptable,as in the broader perspective,that journey is then recorded as having proceeded without issue,whereas the reality is one of a capacity issue,which now may never appear on the stats....which of course,is what the NTA will use when reviewing the route performance for future alterations.

Out-Of-Service buses,should not have fare-paying passengers on board.

lxflyer wrote: »

I think you are expecting a bit much.

Expecting a functional system is a bit much? Let's agree to disagree there. There's more practical ways to do it i'm sure. Stockholm manage to include these things

http://www.eurotransportmagazine.com/17865/news/industry-news/real-time-information-improves-stockholm-bus-passenger-satisfaction/


but, we get this instead... All too common missing buses. Again its called "Real Time" so I should under no circumstances have buses that don't appear. Yet, it's rampant. Happened to me over the weekend. If you're tracking buses in real time, they can't just disappear

http://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/letters/waiting-for-a-real-time-bus-1.2317373

I don't see any mention in that article of the Stockholm system coping with massive diversions from normal?

Quite clearly what happened in the example quoted in the letter to the Irish Times is that the first #14 bus got held up in traffic for whatever reason - no system can legislate for that. The predictive times are based on normal traffic conditions. If a bus gets stuck somewhere the time will "freeze".

It may have then been curtailed at Eden Quay by the controller due to it being late, and passengers switched to the one behind.

Unfortunately the bus service does get affected by what's going on around it. There isn't an all seeing eye that can make predictions of these things.

Sam Russell wrote: »

Out-Of-Service buses should be a rarity. I'm sure Ryanair or Aer Lingus do not have many Out-Of-Service flights.

I have seen Out-Of-Service buses outnumber in service buses in O'Connell St at 5pm on a weekday. How could this be?

You're presumably seeing buses travelling from Broadstone/Phibsboro depot to take up service on Xpresso routes - they do have to travel from the depot to the terminus to start service. There's no magic flying carpet to get there!!

The bus service is operated by a mix of bus and driver duties, some of which see the bus out on the road all day, others come out only for the peak periods and return to the depots during the day and after the evening peak finishes.

devnull wrote:

So if you are 5 minutes away from a terminus you expect the screen to be blank until the bus leaves the terminus?

For the first bus of the day, it could and should display the eta based on the departure time from the terminus. For all other buses, it should be based on the current location of bus which will operate that departure plus any break time.

GreatDefector wrote: »

Algorithm?

As I understand it.

Let us say a bus route has 11 stops (including termini). According to the timetable, it takes 1 minute to travel between each stop, for a total of 10 minutes (1 less legs than stops). If the bus runs to schedule, the system will work perfectly.

However, let us say there are road works between stops 3 and 4, that delays the bus by 4 minutes. The system can then say "That bus is 4 minutes late and will be 4 minutes late at each stop." The RTPI sign at stop 4 will say "due" until the bus arrives, but once it reaches stop 4, the RTPI sign at stop 5 can say "5 minutes", the RTPI sign at stop 6 can say "6 minutes" and so on. The driver's display on the bus will say "-4 minutes" (it might be "+4 minutes"), but you get the idea.

So, while the above is useful once the bus gets to stop 4, until it gets there, it will be saying the bus is "due" for 4 minutes. A similar issue arises at the subsequent stops.

So, to improve this, a few things are done, e.g. the introduction of "Virtual stops" at locations known for congestion, e.g from Amiens Street to the Customs House. When I had access to the virtual stop data, there were probably less than a hundred, out of about 7,000 Dublin Bus stops. However, being in strategic locations, they covered most routes, most buses and most congestion.

So, if there were virtual stops on our example route above at, say, stop 3.5, then the system would learn much more quickly that the bus is running late. However, the virtual stops are much more useful for persistent issues like the Customs House or Luas CRoss City disruption and less use for occasional road works, collisions or events.

However, the next time our bus makes the above trip, it will make the exact same mistake. So, to improve out prediction, the system records how long it has taken to travel each leg on recent journeys. I've been told that the Dublin City Council / Dublin Bus system tracks the last 100 journeys of each bus departure. Given that there are about 100 routes and 1,000 buses in the DB fleet and each bus checks in with the system perhaps once per minute, that's a lot of data. The system can only store a few days data, although some summary data is likely to be kept.

So, having realised that the leg from stop 3 to 4 took 4 minutes last time, the next time the system will expect it to take more than the 1 minute in the timetable. Maybe it will allow 2 minutes. If, through the day, it is constantly taking 4 minutes, then the system will learn to allow 4 minutes. When the roadworks finish, over the following journeys, the system will gradually change back to using the timetable.

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Where it would be good, is if DB and the other organisations created a timetable to cover routine and exceptional situations. DB have public weekday, Saturday and Sunday timetables. Privately, the have working timetables, where due to different running times, a route that might need 12 buses in winter might need only 10 in summer.

There are specific days though the year where there are habitual changes, e.g. public holidays, Christmas, Easter and summer school / college holidays where DB have to publish announcements that there will be no service, no service on certain routes, limited service etc. Very few of the published timetables account for this, e.g. there are some notes in timetables that certain departures only operate from UCD during the college term.

In some countries, the public timetable will have weekday, Saturday, Sunday, public holiday and summer timetables. The difference might only be a different number of departures at peak times, but there is much greater clarity.

Regarding exceptional situations, the Westland Row to Gardiner Street route needs to be protected (permanent stand-by bus stops, no stopping / parking, garda enforcement, tow trucks).

Unfortunately, there seems to be several days per month where there will be a parade, protest march or similar in the city centre and the system falls apart, which the Japanese and German motor industries and suburban shopping centres must love. It would be good if there were a timetable / arrangement to cover such situations.

Just on the phantom buses, when RTP1 was launched I was under the impression that the driver would have to 'log-on' to the RTP1 system to show central control that the bus is running on time and does actually exist. Thus meaning there would have to be a physical bus for info about its timing to show on the RTP1 system.

Am I wrong or was this feature dropped during the launch period? And what exactly happens with the system when there is no bus, does it still show waiting passengers minutes due with it reducing to 'Due' and then nothing shows up? If so that much be incredibly frustrating for regular bus users.