Landlord selling house, year left on lease.

pooch90 · 06-10-2014 5:53pm #1

Hi all,
I know I've come across it before but I can't put my finger on the right info.

Basically, we are a year into a two year lease. LL has to put the house on the market. What are our rights in this situation?
We are a fixed term lease, not Part 4.

If the house sells, does our lease still stand until next year? Do new owners have to take us on as tenants or could they offer us re-location fees or something?

How much access do we need to give the estate agents? (LL is abroad so EA is contacting us directly). We have had the EA in last week to do photos and will be coming this week for a viewing with potential buyer. How often is reasonable? Not worried about now but if it were to happen every week, we'd get sick of it pretty quick.

Also, how do we stand with viewers looking in wardrobes/presses/drawers etc? Surely we still have the right to privacy?

We have no interest in making things difficult for our LL but we are not going to have people in and out constantly either.

Thanks in advance!

Aka Ishur · 06-10-2014 6:05pm

pooch90 wrote: »

Hi all,
I know I've come across it before but I can't put my finger on the right info.

Thanks in advance!

In short you do not have to allow any viewings and your lease will have to be honoured.

The best thing is to get talking to your land lord with a view to him buying you out or giving you a hefty discount on rent.

pooch90 · 06-10-2014 6:11pm

Only downside to that is that there is nowhere suitable to rent at the minute locally, so it's not in our interest to get bought out too soon.
Good idea RE reduction in rent though, we might invoke that if they start taking the p1ss about viewings.

We would love to help them sell the house as it's a sad situation for them but we have to look after number 1 too. Our privacy and peace and quiet are very important to us.

Clive · 06-10-2014 6:23pm

It may be a stupid question pooch90, but are the estate agents aware that the property is being sold with sitting tenants?

Aka Ishur · 06-10-2014 6:28pm

pooch90 wrote: »

Only downside to that is that there is nowhere suitable to rent at the minute locally, so it's not in our interest to get bought out too soon.
Good idea RE reduction in rent though, we might invoke that if they start taking the p1ss about viewings.

We would love to help them sell the house as it's a sad situation for them but we have to look after number 1 too. Our privacy and peace and quiet are very important to us.

I would be sure to set notice conditions before any viewings take place..

pooch90 · 06-10-2014 6:50pm

They have given us enough notice for this viewing(today is Mon,viewing is Thurs) but we will happily say no if it doesn't suit. We have also told them that if there are multiple viewings they are to be done the same day.

Clive, I actually don't know what conversations have been had between EA and LL. We haven't had a proper conversation with LL about this all yet as they live in a time zone 12 hours ahead so it's awkward. They are first time LLs and I wanted to have my info right before we talk to them. The EAs know there is a year left on the lease.

Graham · 06-10-2014 6:54pm

pooch90 wrote: »

They have given us enough notice for this viewing(today is Mon,viewing is Thurs) but we will happily say no if it doesn't suit. We have also told them that if there are multiple viewings they are to be done the same day.

Clive, I actually don't know what conversations have been had between EA and LL. We haven't had a proper conversation with LL about this all yet as they live in a time zone 12 hours ahead so it's awkward. They are first time LLs and I wanted to have my info right before we talk to them. The EAs know there is a year left on the lease.

Did you check the lease? It's not unusual to see a clause whereby the landlord can terminate the lease early if he needs to sell.

pooch90 · 06-10-2014 6:59pm

It is a standard lease with no break clause. As far as LL was concerned they were leaving the country for 5 years and it was to be leased until their return.

Beaner1 · 06-10-2014 9:56pm

Why bother giving viewings if you're getting nothing in return?

AfterHrsProp · 07-10-2014 11:14am

Your under no obligation to do anything. You signed a fixed term lease, unless they have a clause in the lease concerning this your in a relatively good position.

Fixed term leases are signed to give protection not only to the landlord but to the tenant too.

Unless the potential purchasers have vacant possession of the property they will be unable to get a mortgage for it. This reduces the pool of people that can actually buy the property considerably.

If the property is sold to a cash buyer, they will have to honor the lease.

Sit tight & make it clear you do not want to move. If they make you an offer too good to refuse, it might be in your interests to take it

hfallada · 07-10-2014 11:21am

OP you can listen to all these on this thread going on about now having to allow viewings. But at the end of the day, you will wasn't a reference and if you being a bit of prick( allow you are legally entitled to do it). The landlord isn't going to give a glowing reference.

Why did the landlord give a two year lease in the first place? I have never heard of one before

AfterHrsProp · 07-10-2014 11:25am

hfallada wrote: »

OP you can listen to all these on this thread going on about now having to allow viewings. But at the end of the day, you will wasn't a reference and if you being a bit of prick( allow you are legally entitled to do it). The landlord isn't going to give a glowing reference.

Why did the landlord give a two year lease in the first place? I have never heard of one before

Two year leases do exist & how is the tenant being a bit of a prick by not allowing viewings. He signed a two year lease for a reason. If he was the one looking to break the lease the landlord would be able to penalize him. Now the shoe is on the other foot for the tenant & you have a problem with that.

07-10-2014 11:32am

AfterHrsProp wrote: »

If the property is sold to a cash buyer, they will have to honor the lease.

I thought if the owner of a house wants to move in it overrules a lease?

athtrasna · 07-10-2014 11:39am

Santiago Billions Cowgirl wrote: »

I thought if the owner of a house wants to move in it overrules a lease?

No it doesn't. It allows a Part IV tenancy to be ended but not a fixed term lease

07-10-2014 12:25pm

athtrasna wrote: »

No it doesn't. It allows a Part IV tenancy to be ended but not a fixed term lease

Ah fair enough, I mixed it up so.

timetogo · 07-10-2014 12:30pm

Get the landlord on your side (and the potential new landlord).

You don't have to allow viewings but then you do have to keep renting your place until the end of the lease. Would you want a landlord that may review the rent as soon as he's entitled to or end your lease as soon as it expires?

Most people aren't dicks. He wants to sell the property. You don't want it to hassle you. It's not that hard to accommodate each other.

Here's a handy article on your rights.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/housing/renting_a_home/if_your_landlord_wants_you_to_leave.html
http://prtb.ie/news/article/2014/02/11/breaking-a-fixed-term-lease

gaius c · 07-10-2014 12:40pm

pooch90 wrote: »

Hi all,
I know I've come across it before but I can't put my finger on the right info.

Basically, we are a year into a two year lease. LL has to put the house on the market. What are our rights in this situation?
We are a fixed term lease, not Part 4.

If the house sells, does our lease still stand until next year? Do new owners have to take us on as tenants or could they offer us re-location fees or something?

How much access do we need to give the estate agents? (LL is abroad so EA is contacting us directly). We have had the EA in last week to do photos and will be coming this week for a viewing with potential buyer. How often is reasonable? Not worried about now but if it were to happen every week, we'd get sick of it pretty quick.

Also, how do we stand with viewers looking in wardrobes/presses/drawers etc? Surely we still have the right to privacy?

We have no interest in making things difficult for our LL but we are not going to have people in and out constantly either.

Thanks in advance!

If the bank get involved, your lease won't be worth the paper it's written on.
Just be aware of this if they take over the sale.

Personally, I'd be looking for a discount on rent to allow viewings.

womandriver · 07-10-2014 12:47pm

gaius c wrote: »

If the bank get involved, your lease won't be worth the paper it's written on.
Just be aware of this if they take over the sale.

Personally, I'd be looking for a discount on rent to allow viewings.

The lease will still stand in a receivership (been there, done that) not in a liquidation tho I believe.

BeatNikDub · 07-10-2014 1:46pm

It will probably be the EA or the receptionist making the appointments with you so if you wish to allow viewings but at times that suit then tell them when does and when doesn't.
Even if you just want one a week, tell the EA office the time and day and they will arrange all viewings around then. If it doesnt suit potential viewers there is not much they can do about that but generally once the situation is explained to a viewer they understand, plus if they are really serious people will make the time.
Hope this situation moves nice and smoothly for you!

pooch90 · 07-10-2014 2:02pm

Thanks for all the replies.
We have no interest in making things awkward for the LL as we have a good relationship and they haven't been anything but fair with us and vice versa. We will allow viewings within reason but we don't want to feel encroached upon by strangers.

The EA is already p1ssing us off, trying to change days and times when they were coming for photos and calling me THREE times yesterday when they know my work hours.

Timetogo, thanks for the links. One from PRTB will be useful to show LLs.

TBH I think they think they can just sell the house and we will move out whenever suits them. We are nice but we're not that nice!!!

gandalf · 07-10-2014 2:24pm

TBH the EA will be a pain in the ass you need to put them in their place. They want to sell the place quickly to get their commission. If they start acting the dick let the LL know, that way their ear isn't been bent by them about the uncooperative tenant.

pooch90 · 07-10-2014 2:48pm

I was thinking that alright, I have no problem being a dick to the EA.
Just trying to figure out how to make this as painless as possible for the next few months.

timetogo · 07-10-2014 3:48pm

pooch90 wrote: »

I was thinking that alright, I have no problem being a dick to the EA.
Just trying to figure out how to make this as painless as possible for the next few months.

I'm not in your situation and don't know how it works but if it was me I'd say to the LL what times you're willing to let the EA have access and that you aren't available other times. Then let him deal with the EA. The estate agent has to be nice to the landlord. The only time I'd deal with him is during the designated times that I've told he could view the property.

Mrs OBumble · 07-10-2014 4:53pm

Beaner1 wrote: »

Why bother giving viewings if you're getting nothing in return?

Because karma is a bitch.

Beaner1 · 07-10-2014 5:49pm

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Because karma is a bitch.

There is no such thing.

If I sold you a car and then called to your house a week later asking to borrow it for a few hours would you let me? You know, for karma.

BanjoKelly · 07-10-2014 6:04pm

I was a buyer in a situation like this, with sitting tenants. The previous owner halved the rent for the tenants during the month there were viewings happening - I would suggest this is what you should look for in exchange for you facilitating viewings.

When I bought the house I was asked if I wanted vacant possession or to keep the tenants in place. I wanted to keep them. I checked the leases afterwards and in our cases there was a break clause in them if the property is sold. If your lease doesn't have one I expect that you could look for compensation if the vendor wants to break the lease on you.

drumswan · 07-10-2014 6:24pm

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Because karma is a bitch.

Whats karma go to do with it? If you want to sell your house dont lease it to someone else for two years.

Eldarion · 08-10-2014 8:52am

pooch90 wrote: »

Thanks for all the replies.
We have no interest in making things awkward for the LL as we have a good relationship and they haven't been anything but fair with us and vice versa. We will allow viewings within reason but we don't want to feel encroached upon by strangers.

The EA is already p1ssing us off, trying to change days and times when they were coming for photos and calling me THREE times yesterday when they know my work hours.

Timetogo, thanks for the links. One from PRTB will be useful to show LLs.

TBH I think they think they can just sell the house and we will move out whenever suits them. We are nice but we're not that nice!!!

Doesn't sound like it's the LL's burning desire to sell anyway, he's probably underwater so far that it makes little difference. If anything, a delay in the selling process will help him as generally speaking house prices are on the rise and the longer the delay, the closer he gets to the surface.

Since it's the bank forcing the sale then really it's bank and EA where the pressure is coming from and you can quite nicely tell them where to go because you hold all the cards here and they are not serving your best interest at all.

Next call I'd politely put the EA back in his/her box and tell exactly how the situation lies. Tell him/her you have every intention of seeing out the full term outlined in your lease and while you're trying to be accommodating to pictures/viewings that excessive hassle from them especially during your work hours is unacceptable and will lead to you being less accommodating in the future.

pooch90 · 09-10-2014 3:51pm

We have three viewings today and to be honest, I find it all very uncomfortable. I have to hide all my underwear and stuff because they are going into my bedroom, OH has lots of pricey electronics, it's all just horrible.
Serious chats will be had after today because I'm so pissed off with it all already.

Clive · 09-10-2014 4:03pm

pooch90 wrote: »

We have three viewings today and to be honest, I find it all very uncomfortable. I have to hide all my underwear and stuff because they are going into my bedroom, OH has lots of pricey electronics, it's all just horrible.
Serious chats will be had after today because I'm so pissed off with it all already.

Have you looked at the ad the EA put up? If they haven't specified that it's for sale with sitting tenants, then they are wasting everyone's time.

athtrasna · 09-10-2014 4:20pm

pooch90 wrote: »

We have three viewings today and to be honest, I find it all very uncomfortable. I have to hide all my underwear and stuff because they are going into my bedroom, OH has lots of pricey electronics, it's all just horrible.
Serious chats will be had after today because I'm so pissed off with it all already.

Why are you facilitating viewings, you have no obligations to do so

pooch90 · 09-10-2014 4:26pm

They don't have it on the ad but we just spoke to the EA who said her boss told her that it's the bank selling the house and that nullifies our lease, does that sound right? I have emailed the LL (in NZ) to see what the hell is going on. Even more pi$$ed now because we should be kept in the loop. GRRRR!!!!

We allowed these viewings because we didn't want to be dicks, that goodwill is just about gone now.
Dunno what the hell is going on, who owes up a deposit for example??

timetogo · 09-10-2014 4:33pm

Does that mean your house is in receivership?
Here's a handy document. It doesn't seem to mean that it nullifies your lease.
http://www.ulsterbank.ie/documents/roi/A_residential_tenants_guide_to_Receivership.pdf

But if the house is in receivership, who should you be paying rent to? That's a pretty important one.

That changes things. I don't think I'd be allowing any viewings so. Why facilitate them selling the place if they're under the impression that your lease is no good.

drumswan · 09-10-2014 4:37pm

If a receiver has been appointed to sell the house on behalf of the bank, the process is below

http://www.ulsterbank.ie/documents/roi/A_residential_tenants_guide_to_Receivership.pdf

If this was the case you would have been contacted by the receiver.

Stop accommodating viewings, stop communicating with the EA. Tell them you will be in touch after you have spoken to the landlord for clarification, Write to the landlord asking him what is going on.

pooch90 · 09-10-2014 4:41pm

This is exactly what we have just done drumswan.

No contact from a receiver so we are still in the dark.
I have found the part about the deposit in that document anyway.
Have to wait for the LL to get back to me now but we are absolutely hopping mad.

drumswan · 09-10-2014 4:47pm

pooch90 wrote: »

This is exactly what we have just done drumswan.

No contact from a receiver so we are still in the dark.
I have found the part about the deposit in that document anyway.
Have to wait for the LL to get back to me now but we are absolutely hopping mad.

Dont blame you. Despicable carry on. Who'd be a private renter.

pooch90 · 10-10-2014 9:29am

Ok, the upshot is that it is the landlord selling the house. We have told them how intrusive it is and that we want a reduction in the rent. We will see what they come back with now. Do most of you agree with half rent?

Beaner1 · 10-10-2014 10:20am

You call the shots here. Half rent or no viewings.

pooch90 · 10-10-2014 10:35am

Cool, I just would love to limit the amount of time we need to quote tenancy law etc at them. For once we actually had an amicable tenancy so I'm loath to get ****ty but once they are fair with us, we'll be fair with them.

cob1 · 10-10-2014 12:10pm

i was in a similar situation with an apartment (though not with a lease like you) and I'm sorry to say but nobody is going to care about you in this situation. I got a reduced rent to facilitate viewings, but of course the EA was a pain, arranging more viewings than they promised and even entering the house without my permission when I was out. they are going to do whatever it takes to make a sale and if that means walking all over you that's what they'll do. demand a reduced rate and get the difference in your deposit back, but start looking for somewhere new. this isn't going to end well for you otherwise. I ended up wishing I'd moved out the day they put the apt up for sale.

pooch90 · 10-10-2014 1:38pm

They won't be entering anywhere without our permission don't worry, we are not kids that will be pushed around and we have two big ass dogs. The EA was told that if I am called more than once about a viewing, especially during work hours, I will not be responding and they can p*** off.
There is nowhere for us to go at the moment, which is the pain.

Pinkycharm · 11-10-2014 4:04pm

pooch90 wrote: »

Only downside to that is that there is nowhere suitable to rent at the minute locally, so it's not in our interest to get bought out too soon.
Good idea RE reduction in rent though, we might invoke that if they start taking the p1ss about viewings.

We would love to help them sell the house as it's a sad situation for them but we have to look after number 1 too. Our privacy and peace and quiet are very important to us.

Pooch where in Tipp are you??

ffactj · 11-10-2014 4:23pm

What are you going to do if your landlord waits til your lease is up in another year and then you have to move.
He'll get more for the house and you'll most likely end up paying even more rent than if you were to move now.
I would be using this as an opportunity to move.

Slot Machine · 11-10-2014 5:11pm

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Because karma is a bitch.

What happened to "it's a business, not a charity"?

BanjoKelly · 11-10-2014 5:16pm

I don't know if they are right to say that just because the house is being sold it nullifies your lease. That sounds like a misunderstanding of Part 4 tenancies - which doesn't apply to you - since you HAVE a lease. If your lease says something about the agreement being voided by the owner selling the house that's fine, they're right. But if it doesn't say that then your lease survives the sale (in my understanding) and the new purchaser is buying into that agreement too. This places you in a strong negotiating position to get a) reduced rent in exchange for facilitating viewings and b) possibly a pay off to get you to move earlier than the expiry of the lease.

The only reason I had the power to force the tenants out of the house I bought (a power which I didn't use) was because it was written into their leases that if the house is sold the lease agreement is automatically ended.

It's very common for estate agents to play fast and loose with the law (or not have a clue about it). If I were you I wouldn't let them away with anything unless you're compensated for it. If they break the conditions of the lease, document / record all incidents for possible later compensation through the PRTB (assuming you are registered with them).

pooch90 · 11-10-2014 5:53pm

The handy thing is that the lease is direct with the landlord and the estate agent is only handling the sale so we can stonewall the EA if we want as they are nothing to do with us really.

The LL has been in touch and offered money off the rent for the viewings, not enough yet but we will see how we go. They also offered a 6 week notice period should the sale happen. They aren't aware, I think, that our lease would still stand until next year.

If it suits us to leave at the time then we will. However, there is nothing in the rental market currently that comes close. We have two big dogs that need space, and it's very hard to convince landlords they are well trained as everyone says that.

ffactj, we would hold on until the end of the lease so at least we would have time to find somewhere that is right for us but only if it's as easy for work etc. Where we are ticks all the boxes at the minute. Our rent is ok and we had to haggle to get it at the price we did. Wherever we go will have to be at a similar rate.

Things are amicable at the minute and the LLs feel bad about all the crap but at the end of the day, it's our lives that are messy because of it. We will try to keep it friendly but eventually the business heads will need to come on.

Pinkycharm, South Tipp.

iguana · 11-10-2014 6:03pm

OP, I know this is off topic but are you aware that when your LL is out of the country and you are paying the rent directly to them it is your responsibility to ensure the revenue is paid. You are supposed to pay them only 80% of the agreed rent and pay the other 20% to revenue?

pooch90 · 11-10-2014 6:16pm

Ok, didn't know that, doubt they do either. Thanks for the info, you don't have a link handy do you?

Pinkycharm · 11-10-2014 7:14pm

pooch90 wrote: »

The handy thing is that the lease is direct with the landlord and the estate agent is only handling the sale so we can stonewall the EA if we want as they are nothing to do with us really.

The LL has been in touch and offered money off the rent for the viewings, not enough yet but we will see how we go. They also offered a 6 week notice period should the sale happen. They aren't aware, I think, that our lease would still stand until next year.

If it suits us to leave at the time then we will. However, there is nothing in the rental market currently that comes close. We have two big dogs that need space, and it's very hard to convince landlords they are well trained as everyone says that.

ffactj, we would hold on until the end of the lease so at least we would have time to find somewhere that is right for us but only if it's as easy for work etc. Where we are ticks all the boxes at the minute. Our rent is ok and we had to haggle to get it at the price we did. Wherever we go will have to be at a similar rate.

Things are amicable at the minute and the LLs feel bad about all the crap but at the end of the day, it's our lives that are messy because of it. We will try to keep it friendly but eventually the business heads will need to come on.

Pinkycharm, South Tipp.

Ok, just I've a property that I'll be renting nearer to Xmas! No good to you though its in North Tipp!

pooch90 · 11-10-2014 7:19pm

Shame! We're very handy for the motorway here which is another plus point for staying

BanjoKelly · 12-10-2014 12:52am

iguana wrote: »

OP, I know this is off topic but are you aware that when your LL is out of the country and you are paying the rent directly to them it is your responsibility to ensure the revenue is paid. You are supposed to pay them only 80% of the agreed rent and pay the other 20% to revenue?

This is not true. (Correction: I was wrong. It is true, but can be avoided if paying rent to the landlord's collection agent in Ireland)

Landlord selling house, year left on lease.

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