Have any unionist politicians been elected to Dail Eireann since independence?

owenc · 04-01-2011 6:00pm

Simarillion wrote: »

Lets leave the Belfast pogroms, Fethard-on-Sea, the Clifden orphanage, Coolacrease etc. etc. well alone. This is a discussion on unionism and as has been mentioned unionism is not a synonym for Protestantism!

Unionism in Ireland was the most popular stance before they blew-up the post office in 1916, and following the execution of the leaders the political pendulum swung to the opposing side.
Unionists in Ireland included many people from all walks of life, but it is fair to say that the leaders of the unionist movements in Ireland were predominantly Anglican landowners.

Most of my family supported the unionist cause following partition, however they were and are still Irish to the core. Nowadays I don't think any of my family are interested by the cause to establish a link with Great Britain.
I think those involved in the Reform Party have some very good ideas, and would definitely interest me as a political entity were they to run, but they also have some major flaws as do all political parties in Ireland.

The idea that the only link of unionism in Ireland is the Orange lodges in the border counties is also flawed in my own opinion. Anyone I know in Ireland who has any sympathy for a union with GB or who comes from a family who did, thinks that the majority of the Orange Order is nothing but a club for bigots, and does nothing but give Protestants in the rest of the country a bad name. There are a few lodges who predominantly benefit the community much as the Freemasons do, but their public persona needs major revamping!

I agree i hate being assosiated with the orange order and so do the rest of my family, it is now a thing for bigots it used to be a thing for all protestants not anymore its all bigots none of my family are left in it they have all left it infact my granda was the last one in my family to join it.. its dying.

Fratton Fred · 04-01-2011 6:04pm

owenc wrote: »

They are linked, well at least in northern ireland, the protestants in Northern Ireland are all a completely different branch to the protestants in Southern Ireland the protestants in southern ireland are no different to catholics due to anglicanism. Presbyterians are very different to anglicans its a whole different culture thats why presbyterians wouldn't be caught dead playing galeic or learning irish and church of ireland ones would, infact they have absorbed into the irish culture so much that most of them have converted to becomes catholics. Anglicans are so far out compared to presbyterians most don't even consider them to be true protestants sure in the church of ireland when they are saying that we believe in god thing, they say "we believe in one holy and absobtic catholic church"!! Infact they aren't protestants they are reformed catholics.

It's "Holy catholic (small c) and apostolic church" because the Anglican church is catholic (not to be confused with Roman Catholic) and protestant.

And guess what, I'm married to a papist and they still let me in.

owenc · 04-01-2011 6:12pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

It's "Holy catholic (small c) and apostolic church" because the Anglican church is catholic (not to be confused with Roman Catholic) and protestant.

And guess what, I'm married to a papist and they still let me in.

I don't care tbh i'm just saying that it isn't protestant it is a reformed catholic church it isn't roman catholic but it is catholic which means its very close to roman catholic. Very few people know that all the ones in my class who are C of I are sitting saying they are protestants... when really they are catholics. But anyway the moral of the story is unionists are not assioated with the orange order anymore.

Auvers · 04-01-2011 6:14pm

wasn't Conor Cruise O'Brien a unionist in Labour clothing

Fratton Fred · 04-01-2011 6:14pm

owenc wrote: »

I don't care tbh i'm just saying that it isn't protestant it is a reformed catholic church it isn't roman catholic but it is catholic which means its very close to roman catholic. Very few people know that all the ones in my class who are C of I are sitting saying they are protestants... when really they are catholics.

You do realise that any communion that isn't RC or orthodox is protestant. Presbytarians are just one small and somewhat extreme part.

owenc · 04-01-2011 6:17pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

You do realise that any communion that isn't RC or orthodox is protestant. Presbytarians are just one small and somewhat extreme part.

The presbyterian church is protetstant though the church of ireland isn't, the church of ireland protestant in the sense that they are protesting at the catholic church but catholic in the sense that they are using catholic rules etc. Tbh i don't really know much about religion just the basic things as i don't attend church.

Simarillion · 04-01-2011 7:21pm

The Church of Ireland is not a part of the Roman Catholic church.

The word catholic without the preface Roman means "all embracing" or "a wide variety".
Therefore we say "we believe in one holy catholic and apostolic church"

The Church of Ireland is very much a protestant church, it is a member of the Anglican Communion etc.

BUT
There is greater leeway is the running of Anglican churches according to the wishes of the rector and local parish. Many run along strict traditions closer to that of the low church Methodist, Wee frees, and Prebyterians. There are others who have found a middle ground and there are many who use so called High Church traditions, who in England are reffered to as Anglo-Catholics because their rites and rituals are seen as being closer to Roman Catholicism.

Fratton Fred · 04-01-2011 7:54pm

owenc wrote: »

The presbyterian church is protetstant though the church of ireland isn't, the church of ireland protestant in the sense that they are protesting at the catholic church but catholic in the sense that they are using catholic rules etc. Tbh i don't really know much about religion just the basic things as i don't attend church.

there are a lot of differences, not least of which is the ordination of women. You also have the difference in the actual communion itself. The Anglican church believes it is symbolic of the flesh and blood of Christ, whereas the RC church believes in transubstantiation whereby the priest actually turns the bread and wine into the flesh and blood of Christ.

there is also no head of the church, no equivalent to the pope and much less worshipping of saints as well.

I have to add though, that about a quarter of the people who attend the same church as me do so for one far more important reason....they have a very good choir and an excellent rector.

dRNk SAnTA · 04-01-2011 8:10pm

My grandparents on my mum's side were Church of Ireland Unionists in Wexford.

They weren't politically active as far as I know, in fact I don't think they held much interest in Irish affairs at all. They accepted the Republic and just kept their heads down I think. They still read English newspapers and talked about the 'mainland', most of my mum's aunts/uncles and cousins ended up in the UK.

Judgement Day · 04-01-2011 8:29pm

http://www.ucdpress.ie/display.asp?isbn=9781906359447&

Slightly off topic but this new book, which I haven't got hold of yet, might be useful to anybody interested in relics of unionism in the Republic.

Author Biography
Heather K. Crawford returned to third-level education in the 1990s at University of the West of England at Bristol after a wide-ranging working life in Ireland, the UK and Spain. She completed her PhD thesis, 'Protestants and Irishness in independent Ireland: an exploration', at the National University of Ireland Maynooth in 2008.

Description
Does it still matter which foot you dig with in today's Republic of Ireland? "Outside the Glow" examines the relationship between Protestants and Catholics and the notion that southern Protestants are somehow not really Irish. From extensive interviews with representatives of both confessions, Heather K. Crawford demonstrates that there are still underlying tensions between the confessions based on 'memories' of events long buried in the past. By looking at various aspects of everyday life in today's Republic - education, marriage, segregation, Irish language, social life - she shows how these residues of religious, ethnic and cultural tension suggest that to be truly Irish is to be Catholic, and that consequently Protestants - and other minorities - cannot have an authentic Irish identity.

owenc · 04-01-2011 8:54pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

there are a lot of differences, not least of which is the ordination of women. You also have the difference in the actual communion itself. The Anglican church believes it is symbolic of the flesh and blood of Christ, whereas the RC church believes in transubstantiation whereby the priest actually turns the bread and wine into the flesh and blood of Christ.

there is also no head of the church, no equivalent to the pope and much less worshipping of saints as well.

I have to add though, that about a quarter of the people who attend the same church as me do so for one far more important reason....they have a very good choir and an excellent rector.

Yes there are a few differences but tbh the church of ireland is far closer to the catholic church than the main stream protestant ones the way they have confirmation and all that. Yes no pope i agree with all them things as i think they are little too much its only a church after all its not a country but each to their own. I also agree with you on the choir i was in a church of ireland in coleraine a couple of times for Christenings and i loved it it was 3 hours and it flew by like no what , it was great i would rather be church of ireland now, presbyterian services are so boring the minister goes on and on about a pile of crap harldy any singing in it either loads in church of ireland no decorations inside either it just looks like a room with a pile of people talking about god.:( Then theres this bitter strict attitude in the presbyterian church wereas everyone in the church of ireland churches are all cheery love them churches lovely cheery people loved singing all the time it was great.

Judgement Day · 04-01-2011 8:57pm

owenc wrote: »

I don't care tbh i'm just saying that it isn't protestant it is a reformed catholic church it isn't roman catholic but it is catholic which means its very close to roman catholic. Very few people know that all the ones in my class who are C of I are sitting saying they are protestants... when really they are catholics. But anyway the moral of the story is unionists are not assioated with the orange order anymore.

Personally, I would regard the Presbyterian church as being far closer to the Roman Catholic church in terms of their fundamentalism. Most C of I members have a much more relaxed attitude to religious attendance than their RC/Presbyterian neighbours. My own attendance is now reduced to Christenings, Weddings and Funerals.

From a loyalty point of view Presbyterians have been suspect since the events of 1798 - it wasn't C of I members who rose in the north of Ireland. Ulster Presbyterian Henry Joy McCracken was one of the founders of the United Irishmen - then again what could one expect from one of lowland Scottish descent? The British had it about right when the following verse was added to their national anthem in 1745....

Lord, grant that Marshal Wade,
May by thy mighty aid,
Victory bring.
May he sedition hush,
and like a torrent rush,
Rebellious Scots to crush,
God save the King

It was later removed for PC reasons but perhaps it can re-inserted if the disloyal rats leave the sinking ship Scots eventully vote for full independence.Subject for another thread I think - we seem to have drifted way off topic since the first few posts.

owenc · 04-01-2011 9:01pm

Judgement Day wrote: »

Personally, I would regard the Presbyterian church as being far closer to the Roman Catholic church in terms of their fundamentalism. Most C of I members have a much more relaxed attitude to religious attendance than their RC/Presbyterian neighbours. My own attendance is now reduced to Christenings, Weddings and Funerals.

From a loyalty point of view Presbyterians have been suspect since the events of 1798 - it wasn't C of I members who rose in the north of Ireland. Ulster Presbyterian Henry Joy McCracken was one of the founders of the United Irishmen - then again what could one expect from one of lowland Scottish descent? The British had it about right when the following verse was added to their national anthem in 1745....

Lord, grant that Marshal Wade,
May by thy mighty aid,
Victory bring.
May he sedition hush,
and like a torrent rush,
Rebellious Scots to crush,
God save the King

It was later removed for PC reasons but perhaps it can re-inserted if the disloyal rats leave the sinking ship Scots eventully vote for full independence.Subject for another thread I think - we seem to have drifted way off topic since the first few posts.

I was just about to mention that everytime i goto a presbyterian church i get eat off the head and told to go outside if i say one word.:rolleyes: And the minister looks at you as if you shot him in the face or something its not a crime to speak in a church and theres no singing its so boring. In the church of ireland its a cheery and great i love it far better than that presbyterian crap.:( The RC church is even worse than the presbyterian one though they'd bloody murder you if you spoke! Flip sake church of ireland is the best one for me i'm afraid with all the choirs etc. right now back on topic!

brianthebard · 04-01-2011 10:23pm

owenc wrote: »

I was just about to mention that everytime i goto a presbyterian church i get eat off the head and told to go outside if i say one word.:rolleyes: And the minister looks at you as if you shot him in the face or something its not a crime to speak in a church and theres no singing its so boring. In the church of ireland its a cheery and great i love it far better than that presbyterian crap.:( The RC church is even worse than the presbyterian one though they'd bloody murder you if you spoke! Flip sake church of ireland is the best one for me i'm afraid with all the choirs etc. right now back on topic!

Eh this is all very off topic can we stop the discussion about the different types of faith now, or just go to the religion fora if you want...

rightwingdub · 04-01-2011 10:37pm

What about John Bruton he had very strong Unionist tendancies while he was Taoiseach.

Snickers Man · 05-01-2011 2:53pm

Simarillion wrote: »

Unionism in Ireland was the most popular stance before they blew-up the post office in 1916, and following the execution of the leaders the political pendulum swung to the opposing side.

Hogwash!!!

Maybe you're implying a different interpretation of the word "Unionism" than was generally accepted at the time. If you mean an Ireland that was still part of the Empire, still generally speaking loyal to the monarch, still a great (though declining) contributor of manpower (of all ranks) to the British Army, still with an economy inextricably entwined with both Britain and the greater Empire overseas but with a devolved administration in Dublin looking after local affairs then, yes, that was the majority view up to 1916.

But that was not what unionism meant at the time. That was the state of affairs that Carson's boys pledged in their own blood to oppose and to fight against which they armed themselves to the teeth with German weapons.

The Irish Parliamentary Party under Redmond were loyal subjects of the Empire. So was the Sinn Fein envisaged by Arthur Griffith, who essentially wanted like some latter-day politically correct rugby administrator to rename the Empire the "British & Irish" Empire.

The legacy of 1916, instigated by the IRB, is to equate in many people's minds the cause of Irish Nationalism with Republicanism--anti-monarchy, self sufficient, neutral and left-wing leaning, in terms of large state involvement in the economy.

If you spoke today about loyalty to the Queen and advocating that young Irish men should join Her Majesty's forces, you would be considered Unionist. But back in 1914, that was entirely consistent with Nationalism. Or at least the nationalism of many who supported the Irish Parliamentary Party.

rightwingdub wrote:

What about John Bruton he had very strong Unionist tendancies while he was Taoiseach.

There is an important distinction here. Do you mean "sympathetic to the current status of Ulster unionists (small u)", or "desirous of the whole of Ireland rejoining the United Kingdom"?

The latter is what Unionism meant back in 1914. Hiving off "Ulster" into a separate statelet was a compromise position. I don't think John Bruton is for one second advocating the former.

PatsytheNazi · 06-01-2011 3:48pm

Judgement Day wrote: »

http://www.ucdpress.ie/display.asp?isbn=9781906359447&

Slightly off topic but this new book, which I haven't got hold of yet, might be useful to anybody interested in relics of unionism in the Republic.

Author Biography
Heather K. Crawford returned to third-level education in the 1990s at University of the West of England at Bristol after a wide-ranging working life in Ireland, the UK and Spain. She completed her PhD thesis, 'Protestants and Irishness in independent Ireland: an exploration', at the National University of Ireland Maynooth in 2008.

Description
Does it still matter which foot you dig with in today's Republic of Ireland? "Outside the Glow" examines the relationship between Protestants and Catholics and the notion that southern Protestants are somehow not really Irish. From extensive interviews with representatives of both confessions, Heather K. Crawford demonstrates that there are still underlying tensions between the confessions based on 'memories' of events long buried in the past. By looking at various aspects of everyday life in today's Republic - education, marriage, segregation, Irish language, social life - she shows how these residues of religious, ethnic and cultural tension suggest that to be truly Irish is to be Catholic, and that consequently Protestants - and other minorities - cannot have an authentic Irish identity.

" she shows how these residues of religious, ethnic and cultural tension suggest that to be truly Irish is to be Catholic, and that consequently Protestants - and other minorities - cannot have an authentic Irish identity "
Convoluted nonsense. You'd think we were talking about Saudi Arabia or something :rolleyes:

Judgement Day · 06-01-2011 4:50pm

PatsytheNazi wrote: »

" she shows how these residues of religious, ethnic and cultural tension suggest that to be truly Irish is to be Catholic, and that consequently Protestants - and other minorities - cannot have an authentic Irish identity "
Convoluted nonsense. You'd think we were talking about Saudi Arabia or something :rolleyes:

Off with her writing hand so.

Exile 1798 · 10-01-2011 3:09pm

Cosmo Kramer wrote: »

I'm glad I stumbled upon this interesting discussion.

From my (admittedly limited) discussion on this with the few Northern Irish unionists I know, it seems there was a fair bit of border crossing in the aftermath of partition. Many unionists who ended up on the 'wrong' side of the divide sold up and moved across, often a very small distance such as from Leitrim or Monaghan to Fermanagh, but hugely different in political terms of course. I don't know how much this contributed to the overall decline in protestantism/unionism in the republic at that time. Of course there has been similar movement in the opposite direction as well with the northern heritage of many who now live in the 'new town' of Shannon being an example.

Denerick, in terms of your protestant neighbours, as most would have been descendants of unionists from that period, would they still consider themselves as unionists today? Similarly, do descendants of unionists elsewhere in the country still consider themselves to be unionists based on their heritage or have they mostly been assimilated into the prevaling nationalist psyche at this stage?

I was listening to a show on the Donegal SW by election on Newstalk recently and the candidates were discussing the Finn Valley as an unusual area in terms of protestant demographics with as much as 40% of the population tracing their ancestry to the Plantation of Ulster and the area having strong links to the Orange Order. Is there or would there be sufficient population there to elect a unionist Councillor or is there any will amongst those people for something like that to happen? Or would those members of the Order also be Fine Gael supporters?

I'm actually a bit fascinated by this, unionists in the republic are pretty much a forgotton minority really.

The border Protestants are an interesting case.

They have maintained many of the Orange traditions in the form of Halls, Bands, annual marches ect However there seems to be virtually no outward affiliation with Ulster Unionism.

My guess as to why this is that firstly, the most strident Unionists left for the other side of the border at Partition. In that sense those remaining were a self selecting group made up of those individuals and families without the inflexible Unionist beliefs that presumably characterised many of those who relocated.

Secondly, often forgotten is the huge sense of betrayal felt by many Unionists in Donegal, Cavan, and Monaghan when the Unionist Party ceded them from the future Northern Ireland. This was a very bitter controversy within Ulster Unionism at the time.

Thirdly... and this is speculative on my part... I think the experience of living in peace in the Free State and completely at one with their Catholic neighbours has left them loathe to associate themselves with the harsh rhetoric of many Unionists in NI, especially after the 1960s.

Judgement Day · 10-01-2011 3:17pm

Exile 1798 wrote: »

The border Protestants are an interesting case.

They have maintained many of the Orange traditions in the form of Halls, Bands, annual marches ect However there seems to be virtually no outward affiliation with Ulster Unionism.

My guess as to why this is that firstly, the most strident Unionists left for the other side of the border at Partition. In that sense those remaining were a self selecting group made up of those individuals and families without the inflexible Unionist beliefs that presumably characterised many of those who relocated.

Secondly, often forgotten is the huge sense of betrayal felt by many Unionists in Donegal, Cavan, and Monaghan when the Unionist Party ceded them from the future Northern Ireland. This was a very bitter controversy within Ulster Unionism at the time.

Thirdly... and this is speculative on my part... I think the experience of living in peace in the Free State and completely at one with their Catholic neighbours has left them loathe to associate themselves with the harsh rhetoric of many Unionists in NI, especially after the 1960s.

Very speculative I would think, as many from a Unionist background living in the border counties would have been keeping their heads well down and, indeed, probably still do.

PatsytheNazi · 10-01-2011 3:39pm

Judgement Day wrote: »

Very speculative I would think, as many from a Unionist background living in the border counties would have been keeping their heads well down and, indeed, probably still do.

I never thought unionists were ones for keeping their heads down or mouth shut -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwk0AzB3uX0

Judgement Day · 10-01-2011 5:20pm

Interesting video but the caricature is definitely of an Ulster Unionist (Presbyterian) and they would have little in common with the bulk of their southern counterparts.

Exile 1798 · 11-01-2011 1:50am

Judgement Day wrote: »

Interesting video but the caricature is definitely of an Ulster Unionist (Presbyterian) and they would have little in common with the bulk of their southern counterparts.

Yes, Dublin/Cork Unionists were cut from a different cloth.

However, border Protestants are Presbyterian and Ulstermen. As I said, many of the Orange traditions have been maintained and over the years bands and groups from NI have been invited to visit many events in the Republic.

Given this, I find the lack of Unionist sentiment amongst wider Protestant border communities to be an interesting case.

Very speculative I would think, as many from a Unionist background living in the border counties would have been keeping their heads well down and, indeed, probably still do.

I would say this is an overly negative view.

I read an interview a few years ago with an Cavan Orange leader. In his hall were pictures of the Queen and Rangers FC paraphernalia. He said that the hall was used as a meeting place for all sorts of local groups, most of them "non-Orange, non-Protestant" and it wasn't an issue.

It's a very interesting issue and I wonder if there is anyone that has more information on it. Also, does anyone know of any decent books written about the post-Partition border Protestants?

PatsytheNazi · 11-01-2011 4:51pm

rightwingdub wrote: »

What about John Bruton he had very strong Unionist tendancies while he was Taoiseach.

Bruton wasn't called John unionist for nothing.

PatsytheNazi · 14-01-2011 7:32pm

Judgement Day wrote: »

Interesting video but the caricature is definitely of an Ulster Unionist (Presbyterian) and they would have little in common with the bulk of their southern counterparts.

Are the below groups legitimate interest groups or just a few unionist fly boys out to get community/Arts grants and freebie's while been a bit of a nuisance ?

http://www.eastdonegalulsterscots.com/ East Donegal Ulster Scots

http://www.borderminoritygroup.ie/ The Border Minority Group

http://reform.org/ And Reform for Catholic unionists also

Judgement Day · 14-01-2011 9:40pm

PatsytheNazi wrote: »

Are the below groups legitimate interest groups or just a few unionist fly boys out to get community/Arts grants and freebie's while been a bit of a nuisance ?

http://www.eastdonegalulsterscots.com/ East Donegal Ulster Scots

http://www.borderminoritygroup.ie/ The Border Minority Group

http://reform.org/ And Reform for Catholic unionists also

The East Donegal group looks like a harmless local protestant tourist initiative; the Border Minority group looks like another low-budget website with subversive protestant pipe bands and table tennis clubs - hardly a threat to the Republic! The Reform site is just weird apart from being almost devoid of postings. I have to say despite being a spiritual unionist most of my life I have never met anybody associated with any of these groups - even Belturbet Distressed Protestant Ladies Tiddleywinks Club.

PatsytheNazi · 15-01-2011 2:16pm

Judgement Day wrote: »

The East Donegal group looks like a harmless local protestant tourist initiative; the Border Minority group looks like another low-budget website with subversive protestant pipe bands and table tennis clubs - hardly a threat to the Republic! The Reform site is just weird apart from being almost devoid of postings. I have to say despite being a spiritual unionist most of my life I have never met anybody associated with any of these groups - even Belturbet Distressed Protestant Ladies Tiddleywinks Club.

"local protestant" I thought that trying to take an interest in the Ulster Scots 'language' was open to all denominations ? Freudian slip there Judgement Day.

lenc · 19-01-2011 12:08pm

Conor Cruise O'Brien might qualify

here is his wiki page

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conor_Cruise_O'Brien

MRnotlob606 · 08-05-2013 6:17pm

has unionism being forgotten about in the south ? just wondering

tdv123 · 09-05-2013 11:54pm

Was Horace Plunkett (one of Joseph Plunkett relatives) not in it?

Have any unionist politicians been elected to Dail Eireann since independence?

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