RTE report- pace of rent inflation slowing- but landlords leaving sector

Fol20 · 15-12-2018 3:31pm

listermint wrote: »

Actually yes i would, Those figures are not high. And the presumption that they are professional landlords is just that.

A Presumption. There is no evidence that these were professional individuals that made a business of renting residential lettings.

The market is back up, people would obviously be offloading first homes. (pre partner homes) or homes they had been left through berievement or what not.

To tie the figures to some professional class of landlords exciting the sector is suspect to say the least and it obviously suits an agenda setter.

And as you even point out yourself. Everything you just said is a presumption with no hard facts. The hard facts are that there are less rental in the market today and there was a few years ago. If supply goes down in any market, do you think cost goes down with it?

Fol20 · 15-12-2018 3:33pm

AlmightyCushion wrote: »

I love that you consider receiving a fine for breaking the law as a "kick". The cheek of the state for trying to implement consequences for breaking the law.

Its a kick as its so one sided. There no “kick” in the teeth for tenants

Fol20 · 15-12-2018 3:40pm

Borzoi wrote: »

Yes they are, but why...
Because the tenant typically gets an empty white box, and must return it in the same condition to the landlord. No furniture, no washing machine, no kitchen (many renters buy the kitchen from the previous tenant) . A give it a kick of white paint before handback to LL too

I would dearly love to be a LL in those circumstances ;-)

I knew about everything there bar the kitchen until i recently talked to one of my german friends in Munich. I would be ok with something like this as it could then actually become a somewhat passive investment unlike today where you can still actually get calls for how to replace lifht bulbs and how to use a boiler.

l5auim2pjnt8qx · 15-12-2018 4:02pm

It's seems to be a myth out there that only Ireland and the Uk are obsessed with home ownership, as you can see from a graph below that was compiled in 2015 that many countries in Europe are way above Ireland and The UK ,

I've also heard that Dublin is now comparable if not above London in rental prices, this is ridiculous and is being feed through to government to keep multinationals happy ........I was talking to someone recently who told me his daughter is paying 36K annually for a 1 bed type bedsit 32 sq meteres in London this covers her management fees and property tax (financial services position)that she has to pay as a tenant, he also said that she loves were she lives as the location suits all her needs ,these prices are unheard of in Dublin and I would state that Dublin Rental prices are undervalued as tenants here don't have to pay for MC and property charges , when you factor in these charges to Dublin inclusive of rtb charges €90 for each tenant a Landlord has to pay to the RTB . decent 3 beds properties in Dublin should be no lower than €3,000 per month - which alot of reits are now charging and more.

People asking ,"why rental prices so high" Dublin is booming more so than any other european city in the eurozone certainly will be outpacing London as London is now taking a hit ,its proximity on the edge of Europe its relatively a low population for the size of the country and it abundance of water ,cough.cough low tax base make it hughely attractive for Corporations and emaployees from oversea's alike. So in the not so distant future people will get use to talking about Dublin ,London & maybe Paris as expensive cities to live in as I don't see a population reduction for the forseeable future.
This is a list of countries by home ownership rate, the ratio of owner-occupied units to total residential units in a specified area.[1]

The government are well aware of this, with small Landlords out of the way, governments are paving the way for Vulture funds and share holders to increase there profits even further as they take over more and more properties from the dwlinging number of small type Landlords.So get use to rental prices rises in 2019.

Rank Country Home ownership
rate(%) Date of
Information
1 Romania 96.4 2015[2]
2 Singapore 90.7 2017[3]
3 Slovakia 90.3 2014[2]
4 China 90 2014[4]
5 Cuba 90.0 2014[5]
6 Croatia 89.7 2014[2]
7 Lithuania 89.4 2015[2]
8 India 86.6 2011[6]
9 Hungary 86.3 2015[2]
10 Russia 84.0 2012[7]
11 Poland 83.5 2014[2]
12 Oman 83 2014[8]
13 Norway 82.8 2015[2]
14 Bulgaria 82.3 2015[2]
15 Estonia 81.5 2015[2]
16 Latvia 80.2 2015[2]
17 Malta 80.0 2014[2]
18 Mexico 80.0 2009[9]
19 Thailand 80.0 2002[10]
20 Spain 78.2 2015[2]
21 Czech Republic 78.0 2015[2]
22 Iceland 77.8 2015[2]
23 Slovenia 76.2 2015[2]
24 Trinidad and Tobago 76.0 2013[11]
25 Portugal 74.9 2014[2]
26 Brazil 74.4 2008[12]
27 Greece 74.0 2014[2]
28 Cyprus 73.1 2014[2]
29 Italy 72.9 2014[2]
30 Finland 72.7 2015[2]
31 Luxembourg 72.5 2014[2]
32 Belgium 71.3 2016[2]
33 Sweden 70.6 2015[2]
34 Ireland 68.6 2014[13]
35 Netherlands 67.8 2015[2]
36 Canada 67.6 2013[14]
37 Israel 67.3 2014[15]
38 Turkey 67.3 2011[16]
39 Australia 65.5 2016[17]
40 France 65.0 2014[2]
41 United States United States 64.5 2014[18]
42 United Kingdom 63.5 2015[2]

bleary · 15-12-2018 4:11pm

The_Conductor wrote: »

Switzerland is the same- the regulatory authority there employ inspectors who check that the cupboards have been cleaned and the painting is to a satisfactory standard- before they approve the landlord pay the deposit to the renter (and the deposit is a standard 3 month's rent).

White box- surgically clean- and returned in identically a fashion + 3 months rent as a deposit. I'd love to be a landlord there!

Not ideal over there either. The first place i experienced rent control. The apartments are largely run by insurance companies. You will only be allowed rent somewhere commensurate with your income. Hard to shift someone when they get a lease. The result?
People get a contract then sublet the places rather than releasing back to the market. Often for multiples of what they pay.
Then you spend your time hiding from the apartment management as the sub letter. I thought it was a terrible system. Now Ireland is taking on the worst parts of it

Old diesel · 15-12-2018 8:38pm

How much extra does it cost to provide Kitchen, washing machine, dryer and other facilities.

Vs the white box solution.

If someone is saying that part of the reason Germany can rent cheaper is because the German landlord doesnt have to supply kitchen and appliances then imo a cost calculation should be available for this.

For me a Kitchen is a fit once and leave it until you get bored/or it wears out job.

I also suspect that what will happen in Ireland is - you will get the white box - but you won't get the discount or the long lease.

Fol20 · 15-12-2018 8:59pm

Old diesel wrote: »

How much extra does it cost to provide Kitchen, washing machine, dryer and other facilities.

Vs the white box solution.

If someone is saying that part of the reason Germany can rent cheaper is because the German landlord doesnt have to supply kitchen and appliances then imo a cost calculation should be available for this.

For me a Kitchen is a fit once and leave it until you get bored/or it wears out job.

I also suspect that what will happen in Ireland is - you will get the white box - but you won't get the discount or the long lease.

Well kitchens cost a minimum of 3-5k depending on size. Then add couches of say another 1k. Beds 1k. You get the hint. These do cost money which are added to the rental cost. Most furniture might last 7-10years if your lucky. So yes they do make costs go up. Its not the main reason but it does add to it.

Your right. In the current state of our market, if you are offered a whitebox. Potentially it might be slightly less but if there isnt enough places on the market. Why do people complain that ll are greedy. People are all greedy. If your a specialist in your field where demand is high. You also command a good salary. I dont see any issues with it.

The_Conductor · 15-12-2018 9:09pm

Fol20 wrote: »

Well kitchens cost a minimum of 3-5k depending on size. Then add couches of say another 1k. Beds 1k. You get the hint. These do cost money which are added to the rental cost. Most furniture might last 7-10years if your lucky. So yes they do make costs go up. Its not the main reason but it does add to it.

Your right. In the current state of our market, if you are offered a whitebox. Potentially it might be slightly less but if there isnt enough places on the market. Why do people complain that ll are greedy. People are all greedy. If your a specialist in your field where demand is high. You also command a good salary. I dont see any issues with it.

The bigger cost is sorting issues that arise with white goods- its 100-150 for a call out for pretty much any appliance- and if you're unlucky, you could have a few in quick succession- which rapidly becomes extortionate for a small landlord- but is fine for a larger one- as they just employ a 'handyman' to sort these type issues as they arise.

On the continent- if white goods break or need to be replaced- they are the tenant's issue. However, the flipside of the coin is- I can buy my own appliances- and bring them with me where-ever I move- so I have a nice set of brushed steel kitchen appliances that I know are reliable.

There are pros and cons to each approach- however, I honestly think that both tenants and landlords are better served by the unfurnished model- and the Irish/UK model- just seems nutty to me.

Fol20 · 15-12-2018 9:45pm

Conpletely agree conductor. Ongoing maintenace does add up alright. On thenother end of the spectrum. I do think the knock on effect if its up to tenants to buy their own stuff is that furniture and bedding shops may loose out as not as much stuff would be bought i suspect. Iv seen some places in the states in in germany and france where the forego couches etc. i would prefer their model however i do think there will knockon effect for supplemwntary companies

robp · 16-12-2018 1:39am

Borzoi wrote: »

Yes they are, but why...
Because the tenant typically gets an empty white box, and must return it in the same condition to the landlord. No furniture, no washing machine, no kitchen (many renters buy the kitchen from the previous tenant) . A give it a kick of white paint before handback to LL too

I would dearly love to be a LL in those circumstances ;-)

Unfurnished apartments might help keep costs low in Germany but it is probably only a limited factor. Factors that are probably more important are Germanys far older population, smaller families more high rise often low immigration rates means there is just less demand over there.

Borzoi · 16-12-2018 3:22pm

robp wrote: »

Unfurnished apartments might help keep costs low in Germany but it is probably only a limited factor. Factors that are probably more important are Germanys far older population, smaller families more high rise often low immigration rates means there is just less demand over there.

Very valid points, as to why rates are different. You could add tax rates, risk levels, mortgage rates etc

However what I was trying to point out that if you just look at the headline monthly rate for similar properties, many people would not realise that the German rate is for a "white box"

JJayoo · 16-12-2018 3:38pm

Landlords are leaving because they can sell for a high price it has nothing to do with them struggling to make money off renting

Fol20 · 16-12-2018 3:44pm

JJayoo wrote: »

Landlords are leaving because they can sell for a high price it has nothing to do with them struggling to make money off renting

Yes prices are hogher now than what they once were 4 years ago however some people have owned places for decades that are selling. Rental investment is no longer as an attractive investment oppurtunity it used to be so many are getting out which can be ok if others are filling their spaces however now it is declining and declining with no new blood filling the ranks.

16-12-2018 3:47pm

JJayoo wrote: »

Landlords are leaving because they can sell for a high price it has nothing to do with them struggling to make money off renting

For some that might be true, but with rents at such high levels, retaining an appreciating asset while receiving a good income should be very appealing. You would think more investors should be buying BTL properties, instead they are leaving in significant numbers, effectively going against normal market practices.

Hard to explain that in any other terms than, no matter how much rent you get, it's not worth the risk/hassle of being a single/small number of properties landlord. Thanks to pro tenant legislation, rental property numbers are falling at a time when rents are increasing. That is quite an achievement.

JJayoo · 16-12-2018 6:03pm

I think the age of the landlords selling would be an interesting stat. I would imagine a large % off the landlords selling are in their 50/60s and a 250k lump sums is.much more appealing at this stage of their life.

The 30/40 year old landlord on the other hand will be holding onto the property

16-12-2018 6:18pm

JJayoo wrote: »

I think the age of the landlords selling would be an interesting stat. I would imagine a large % off the landlords selling are in their 50/60s and a 250k lump sums is.much more appealing at this stage of their life.

The 30/40 year old landlord on the other hand will be holding onto the property

Would you think there are many 30/40 year old landlords? I doubt it. I suspect most current landlords bought before the recession or were cash buyers during it, I'd say the age profile would be more mid 40s to mid 60s

runawaybishop · 16-12-2018 7:32pm

JJayoo wrote: »

Landlords are leaving because they can sell for a high price it has nothing to do with them struggling to make money off renting

So why are they not being replaced by new landlords?

Stupid government regulations, that's why.

The_Conductor · 16-12-2018 7:44pm

JJayoo wrote: »

I think the age of the landlords selling would be an interesting stat. I would imagine a large % off the landlords selling are in their 50/60s and a 250k lump sums is.much more appealing at this stage of their life.

The 30/40 year old landlord on the other hand will be holding onto the property

I personally know 4 landlords in the sector who are exiting at the moment.
3 are in their 30s- two are selling one is moving out of their current (rented unit) and into the unit they own themselves. The 4th person is in his late 50s and has at least 8 or 9 units (I don't know how many- and I'm not sure he'd admit how many if asked). He is jumping- before he gets stuck with tenants he doesn't want- with a few exceptions- he has a couple of tenants who will be the last ones he gets rid of.

I also have a number of immediate family members (I have 6 siblings) who intend to come back to Ireland- having emigrated during the downturn- all of whom intend to claim their apartments back for personal use.

86% of registered tenancies in Ireland are from landlords who own 1 or 2 units- I'd love to know how many of them are living abroad- I suspect it would set alarm bells ringing..........

RTE report- pace of rent inflation slowing- but landlords leaving sector

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