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Notice to vacate corporation/ sw house

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  • 02-07-2020 6:51pm
    #1
    deanylkl
    Registered Users Posts: 14 ✭


    Hi

    I'm not sure if I'm leaving this comment in the right section so feel free to move if not.

    I have a question regarding a relative. His wife passed away 6 months ago and since then it has been a nightmare for him. Obviously stating the death has crippled him mentally as it was an unexpected one, but the council are now giving him orders to leave his home. He moved in to it with his partner 34 years ago. It was initially her parents home and as far as he was concerned everything was above board and he was registered as a tenant on the residential register to this property. He even claimed Social welfare for a period of 8 months about 15 years ago from this address. What he didn't know until after his wife's death was that she never registered him to the property. Within weeks the council were asking for proof of his occupancy and how long he was there. He provided multiple documents showing he was there for 30 plus years. From his doctors, to his work. Now today they sent a letter to him stating he must vacate the home by next Friday, or face eviction. He has gone out of his mind now with stress and I don't know what to say to him. I booked an appointment with a solicitor local to him but he won't see them until Monday. He is being honest when he said that as far as he knew he was a registered tenant here for 34 years. He has no where to go and has made this house his home. He has pets and invested a lot into making this house a home over the years. He has no problem paying back what is owed to the council but they are not speaking to him on the phone and will only communicate through letter. They also stated he is earning more than the threshold to apply for social housing.he is only a year away from retirement and would leave now if it meant he can stay.
    Have you any advice for him. It will be greatly appreciated if can offer something constructive as he is at dire straits now and I genuinely think he is suicidal or at least extremely depressed over this. He doesn't seem like the same man anymore and I just want to help him any way I can.


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    #2
    Lenar3556
    Registered Users Posts: 1,357 ✭✭✭Lenar3556


    deanylkl wrote: »
    Hi

    I'm not sure if I'm leaving this comment in the right section so feel free to move if not.

    I have a question regarding a relative. His wife passed away 6 months ago and since then it has been a nightmare for him. Obviously stating the death has crippled him mentally as it was an unexpected one, but the council are now giving him orders to leave his home. He moved in to it with his partner 34 years ago. It was initially her parents home and as far as he was concerned everything was above board and he was registered as a tenant on the residential register to this property. He even claimed Social welfare for a period of 8 months about 15 years ago from this address. What he didn't know until after his wife's death was that she never registered him to the property. Within weeks the council were asking for proof of his occupancy and how long he was there. He provided multiple documents showing he was there for 30 plus years. From his doctors, to his work. Now today they sent a letter to him stating he must vacate the home by next Friday, or face eviction. He has gone out of his mind now with stress and I don't know what to say to him. I booked an appointment with a solicitor local to him but he won't see them until Monday. He is being honest when he said that as far as he knew he was a registered tenant here for 34 years. He has no where to go and has made this house his home. He has pets and invested a lot into making this house a home over the years. He has no problem paying back what is owed to the council but they are not speaking to him on the phone and will only communicate through letter. They also stated he is earning more than the threshold to apply for social housing.he is only a year away from retirement and would leave now if it meant he can stay.
    Have you any advice for him. It will be greatly appreciated if can offer something constructive as he is at dire straits now and I genuinely think he is suicidal or at least extremely depressed over this. He doesn't seem like the same man anymore and I just want to help him any way I can.

    Legal advise required, having visibility of the full facts. Stay put in the meantime. I wouldn’t be getting too excited.


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    #3
    Carawaystick
    Registered Users Posts: 8,779 ✭✭✭Carawaystick


    Contact Threshold also.


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    #4
    Mrs OBumble
    Registered Users Posts: 25,727 ✭✭✭✭Mrs OBumble


    He believes he was a tenant - but he wasn't. Council tenants are not on any residential properties register. Before anyone moves into a council property, council permission should be obtained. Obviously that didn't happen, and later at the point when the late wife took over the parent's tenancy, he was again not mentioned - probably because not telling the council about his income kept the rent down. It's likely that his wife's estate owes the council thousands in underpaid rent for the undeclared adult living in the property over so many years.

    His wife's behaviour leaves a lot to be desired - she really has shafted him very badly. Saying that probably won't be helpful to him.although maybe someone could gently suss out if he is angry with her for what she did - he has every right to be.

    Realistically, he needs to start looking for a new rental property to move in to. The council cannot be seen to let a squatter with no rights (which is what he is, as far as they're concerned) stay unchallenged.

    Another option would be to contact a local city / council councillor who could perhaps help find a solution.

    Retiring early to get his income down would not be a good idea. The means test for social housing eligibility is based on assets as well as income, and given that he's essentially been living rent-free for years he's likely to have savings as well.


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    #5
    Lenar3556
    Registered Users Posts: 1,357 ✭✭✭Lenar3556


    Mrs OBumble wrote: »
    He believes he was a tenant - but he wasn't. Council tenants are not on any residential properties register. Before anyone moves into a council property, council permission should be obtained. Obviously that didn't happen, and later at the point when the late wife took over the parent's tenancy, he was again not mentioned - probably because not telling the council about his income kept the rent down. It's likely that his wife's estate owes the council thousands in underpaid rent for the undeclared adult living in the property over so many years.

    His wife's behaviour leaves a lot to be desired - she really has shafted him very badly. Saying that probably won't be helpful to him.although maybe someone could gently suss out if he is angry with her for what she did - he has every right to be.

    Realistically, he needs to start looking for a new rental property to move in to. The council cannot be seen to let a squatter with no rights (which is what he is, as far as they're concerned) stay unchallenged.

    Another option would be to contact a local city / council councillor who could perhaps help find a solution.

    Retiring early to get his income down would not be a good idea. The means test for social housing eligibility is based on assets as well as income, and given that he's essentially been living rent-free for years he's likely to have savings as well.

    If he had been living there for a shorter period I would agree, but he has reportedly been there for 34 years, is in a position to demonstrate it, and was the spouse of the recognised occupier

    It will be very difficult for the LA to maintain that they weren’t aware he was living there for this period and that his doing so was entirely illegitimate over the last 34 years. The full facts would need to be known, and indeed there could potentially have been some shortcoming or wrongdoing on behalf of his deceased wife in her handling of the registration, but is it likely that the council are now in a position to forcibly remove him from the property? I would say almost certainly not.

    The best they are likely to achieve is a reassessment of the rent. I would concur with raising the matter with his local representative.

    Not suggesting that it is ever remotely satisfactory that there be a failure to declare details in order to secure a lower rent in what is already heavily subsidised housing. But the LA may have been quite casual in not identifying it, and their issue will lie with someone who is now regrettably deceased.


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    #6
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Lenar3556 wrote: »
    But the LA may have been quite casual in not identifying it, and their issue will lie with someone who is now regrettably deceased.


    How does the LA monitor such things normally? Are they under obligation to periodically (without warning presumably) check on who is living in their houses?


    Their issue lies with someone who they didn't realise was living there now demanding to live there even though they don't qualify for Social Welfare housing (per the OP).


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    #7
    Electric
    Registered Users Posts: 538 ✭✭✭Electric


    Mercy Law Resource Center provide free legal advice and free legal representation, where required, on social housing and related social welfare law.

    https://mercylaw.ie/


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    #8
    Lenar3556
    Registered Users Posts: 1,357 ✭✭✭Lenar3556


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    How does the LA monitor such things normally? Are they under obligation to periodically (without warning presumably) check on who is living in their houses?

    Their issue lies with someone who they didn't realise was living there now demanding to live there even though they don't qualify for Social Welfare housing (per the OP).

    He may say that they realise now, and should update their records. He might not qualify as a new applicant, but he will argue that he is not in this position - he is an existing tenant, albeit the records held by the local authority are not up to date.

    They usually have tenant liaison officers, and would ordinarily attend on the premises to perform repairs, inspections and upgrades. You would have to look at the file and see what evidence is in existence to establish was there a contrived attempt to disguise the fact that he lived there over 30+ years or did the LA make any enquires during this time.


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    #9
    blackbox
    Registered Users Posts: 4,158 ✭✭✭blackbox


    If he has plenty of money, why doesn't he find a smaller place to rent and leave the council house for a family that needs it.


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    #10
    Gatling
    Registered Users Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    His partner inherited a LA property which his name was never on and now he wants to inherit the property ,
    Can't see the LA playing ball here ,

    I know a family who lived in a LA house both parents died within 6 months of each other , siblings in their 20s lived in the house all their lives received notice to quit the property within weeks of the second funeral and were eventually evicted due to the LA needing homes for people on the housing list which they weren't
    360_F_102352090_ie3kLjDIvgrT1sxVDknWCUh8PxgMYzM7.jpg




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    #11
    jopax
    Registered Users Posts: 451 ✭✭jopax


    I can't understand how this went unnoticed, usually the council will review the rent every few years which entails filling out who's living in the house & how much they are earning.
    If this occurred he should have been put down as a tennant


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    #12
    corcaigh1
    Registered Users Posts: 647 ✭✭✭corcaigh1


    How does one live in a LA property unknown to the authority since 1986...wtf!?


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    #13
    Spanish Eyes
    Registered Users Posts: 15,905 ✭✭✭✭Spanish Eyes


    I thought evictions were on hold during Covid. I don't know for how long though.

    He should stay put and seek help from Threshold or wherever.


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    #14
    Sinus pain
    Registered Users Posts: 507 ✭✭✭Sinus pain


    Hi wife obviously never informed the council of his tenancy to benefit from reduced rent. If he is earning above the threshold the rent would be quite high. She would have had to tell the council every year what the income was and sent in p60s or payslips or social welfare letters. His wife must have knowingly deceived the local authority. That said if he was none the wiser I feel for him. His best bet would be not to move anywhere and contact his local counceller. They may be able to put a case forward for him that his wife took care of all the bills etc and if he pays the back rent they may let him stay.


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    #15
    Mrs OBumble
    Registered Users Posts: 25,727 ✭✭✭✭Mrs OBumble


    jopax wrote: »
    I can't understand how this went unnoticed, usually the council will review the rent every few years which entails filling out who's living in the house & how much they are earning.
    If this occurred he should have been put down as a tennant

    Indeed, he should have been put down.

    But the council typically do this by sending out a form which the tenant completes. They don't actually send a housing officer out to count the toothbrushes in the bathroom. And tradespeople who the council sent out to do work won't usually know the finer details of the tenancy, like whether a live-in partner is on the tenancy or not.


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    #16
    80j2lc5y7u6qs9
    Closed Accounts Posts: 957 ✭✭✭80j2lc5y7u6qs9


    I know of three similar cases but it was the son who was left after aparent died .In the first the community kicked up a storm and he was allowed to stay, he had mental health issues, may have helped


    In the second the man refused to go and was given a small apartment and then went.


    In the third the man went immediately and spent two years sleeping on a couch before getting himself a non council flat

    It will be very difficult for the LA to maintain that they weren’t aware he was living there for this period
    They don't go looking in windows.If the wife did not put him on the rent review how would they know, the thousands of houses tha they manage?


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    #17
    g6fdyotp5nj2l7
    Closed Accounts Posts: 436 ✭✭g6fdyotp5nj2l7


    So he got 34 years rent free and now it's the LA at fault.
    The whole LA housing scheme is a joke. I know of several 3 bedroom LA houses occupied by one person.
    This is a crazy situation with the amount of families needing accommodation.
    The amount of fellas living rent free in LA houses given to unmarried mothers or whatever title they go by now also needs to be stamped out.
    I have every sympathy for this man having lost his partner but the fault doesn't lie with the LA in my opinion.


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    #18
    Meeoow
    Registered Users Posts: 624 ✭✭✭Meeoow


    The system is crap. Most people put their names on list when they have children. They have to wait for years. I saw someone posting here that they were on list 14 years. So basically, by the time they get house, their kids are nearly grown up and out of the house. So they now have a 3 bed house to themselves


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    #19
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 17,728 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Sinus pain wrote: »
    Hi wife obviously never informed the council of his tenancy to benefit from reduced rent..........

    .And he quite likely was aware that was the case also.


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    #20
    g6fdyotp5nj2l7
    Closed Accounts Posts: 436 ✭✭g6fdyotp5nj2l7


    There's plenty scobes who never worked a day in their life drawing jobseekers or worse supposedly sick and drawing disability taking up houses that families should be in.
    But sure going by the reaction when the council rightly try to reclaim their property can you just imagine the uproar if they took on the perpetually entitled.


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    #21
    80j2lc5y7u6qs9
    Closed Accounts Posts: 957 ✭✭✭80j2lc5y7u6qs9


    Lenar3556 wrote: »
    If he had been living there for a shorter period I would agree, but he has reportedly been there for 34 years, is in a position to demonstrate it, and was the spouse of the recognised occupier

    It will be very difficult for the LA to maintain that they weren’t aware he was living there for this period and that his doing so was entirely illegitimate over the last 34 years. The full facts would need to be known, and indeed there could potentially have been some shortcoming or wrongdoing on behalf of his deceased wife in her handling of the registration, but is it likely that the council are now in a position to forcibly remove him from the property? I would say almost certainly not.

    The best they are likely to achieve is a reassessment of the rent. I would concur with raising the matter with his local representative.

    Not suggesting that it is ever remotely satisfactory that there be a failure to declare details in order to secure a lower rent in what is already heavily subsidised housing. But the LA may have been quite casual in not identifying it, and their issue will lie with someone who is now regrettably deceased.
    But she didn't inform the council of that according to the OP


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    #22
    80j2lc5y7u6qs9
    Closed Accounts Posts: 957 ✭✭✭80j2lc5y7u6qs9


    Mrs OBumble wrote: »
    Indeed, he should have been put down.

    But the council typically do this by sending out a form which the tenant completes. They don't actually send a housing officer out to count the toothbrushes in the bathroom. And tradespeople who the council sent out to do work won't usually know the finer details of the tenancy, like whether a live-in partner is on the tenancy or not.
    But she didn't compete it honestly. So he has gained 34 years worth of whatever amount his portion of the income to the household would have been. I find it hard to believe he did not know she was not answering honestly as if she were she would have had to ask him his income details.


    If he has a good job and 34 years of not paying rent how come he has nowhere to go?


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    #23
    80j2lc5y7u6qs9
    Closed Accounts Posts: 957 ✭✭✭80j2lc5y7u6qs9


    Lenar3556 wrote: »
    He may say that they realise now, and should update their records. He might not qualify as a new applicant, but he will argue that he is not in this position - he is an existing tenant, albeit the records held by the local authority are not up to date.

    They usually have tenant liaison officers, and would ordinarily attend on the premises to perform repairs, inspections and upgrades. You would have to look at the file and see what evidence is in existence to establish was there a contrived attempt to disguise the fact that he lived there over 30+ years or did the LA make any enquires during this time.
    He is not an existing tenant because he never was a tenant . He was staying there unknown to the council in breach of the rules so they can remove him. If his name and income was not on the rent assessment that is contrived attempt to disguise the fact that he lived there over 30+ years . The rent assessment forms make it clear all income has to be declared and all persons named who oive there and their relationship to the tenant


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    #24
    Limpy
    Users Awaiting Email Confirmation Posts: 1,105 ✭✭✭Limpy


    I think the OP should be happy he got away with it for 34 years and put it down as a lesson learned.


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    #25
    endacl
    Registered Users Posts: 22,239 ✭✭✭✭endacl


    Carawaystick wrote: »
    Contact Threshold also.

    Nah, don’t do that. You need advice based in facts, not ideology.


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    #26
    Limpy
    Users Awaiting Email Confirmation Posts: 1,105 ✭✭✭Limpy


    Put it this way OP's friend, if you pull this off and keep the house any person can say they were living in a house for x years and be entitled to it. You are not special. The house should be giving to a family who are trying to have a home and to be able to work, knowing the kids can get settled in a school and make life long friends with the neighbors. Not someone who chanced it for over 3 decades.


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    #27
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Spanish Eyes wrote: »
    I thought evictions were on hold during Covid....

    Regards of the rights and wrongs.

    How are they evicting him under covid?


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    #28
    Lenar3556
    Registered Users Posts: 1,357 ✭✭✭Lenar3556


    Aitana Tinkling Comics wrote: »
    He is not an existing tenant because he never was a tenant . He was staying there unknown to the council in breach of the rules so they can remove him. If his name and income was not on the rent assessment that is contrived attempt to disguise the fact that he lived there over 30+ years . The rent assessment forms make it clear all income has to be declared and all persons named who oive there and their relationship to the tenant

    You are making some assumptions there - who said anything about the existence of rent assessment forms?There is much which is unknown from the report by the OP, and as I have outlined the full facts would need to be understood. Some local authorities have always been efficient in carrying out annual rent reviews. But others were not, and rent reviews were often known to be undertaken by a housing officer or revenue collector calling to the dwelling, discussing circumstances, reviewing documents and taking notes.

    There may or may not be significant body of evidence for the LA to rely upon in claiming they were misled.

    There is then the question of who misled them, and did they undertake due diligence over the past 34 years?

    The moralities of the situation are a separate matter, and I would have strong views on this, but make no mistake the man may not have been on record as a tenant, but if he lived there for 34 years, he is defacto in such a position and the LA are now likely to have a difficulty.


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    #29
    Mrs OBumble
    Registered Users Posts: 25,727 ✭✭✭✭Mrs OBumble


    beauf wrote: »
    Regards of the rights and wrongs.

    How are they evicting him under covid?

    He's a squatter, not a tenant.

    So I don't think that this is about an eviction.

    I have a great deal of sympathy for him, fwiw. A friend was put in a similar situation by his dying wife who controlled the finances tightly to the end, and forgot to pay the rent for her final three months. She totally ruined his credit rating, and she was gone so escaped all consequences.


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    #30
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Does it matter?
    The ban on evictions has been expanded to include all tenancies in the State, including those not covered by the Residential Tenancies Act.


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    #31
    80j2lc5y7u6qs9
    Closed Accounts Posts: 957 ✭✭✭80j2lc5y7u6qs9


    Lenar3556 wrote: »
    You are making some assumptions there - who said anything about the existence of rent assessment forms?There is much which is unknown from the report by the OP, and as I have outlined the full facts would need to be understood. Some local authorities have always been efficient in carrying out annual rent reviews. But others were not, and rent reviews were often known to be undertaken by a housing officer or revenue collector calling to the dwelling, discussing circumstances, reviewing documents and taking notes.

    There may or may not be significant body of evidence for the LA to rely upon in claiming they were misled.

    There is then the question of who misled them, and did they undertake due diligence over the past 34 years?

    The moralities of the situation are a separate matter, and I would have strong views on this, but make no mistake the man may not have been on record as a tenant, but if he lived there for 34 years, he is defacto in such a position and the LA are now likely to have a difficulty.


    any local authority i know of send out rent review forms.They have to be filled in.All tenants and all tenants incomes go on and have to send evidence. i now someone in a local authority house who has to send evidence of welfare and knew several who had to send evidence of income from employment. I knew of none where an officer would call out. Perhaps you can say which local authorities don't send out rent review forms?

    He is defacto a squatter


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