What defines a tenant and rights of the owner

Priority seat · 05-05-2020 3:22pm #1

Apartment was briefly let as an airBnB before the world as we know it ended mid March.
Handled by an airBnB handover agent I used. After its clear no more short term lets he gets a ‘tenant’ in on a 90 day agreed lease with an agreed rent.
However, unbeknownst to me ( owner - working abroad), he incredibly handed over keys( including car park fob) without 1. A written signed lease agreement 2. Any rent in advance 3. Agreeing or taking a deposit 4. Reading the meter
The ‘agreement’ was a series of watsapps. ‘Tenant’ promised to pay within first day or two but immediately became redundant upon moving in ( announced the next day).
Into 7th week and no money ever handed over.
Belligerent ultra left anti landlord boyfriend then comes out of woodwork and the lies and accusations begin.
After requests for payment he claims everything imaginable from covid to shingles to pregnancy for his girlfriend ( the one the ‘agreement’ was supposedly with - she’s now taken a back seat).
So my point/question is this. Will they be considered as tenants by the system if no rent was ever handed over. I believe its called consideration in law and is necessary to commence a legal tenancy in some systems. Am I in a strong position to re claim my property myself if they are basically squatters?
I am intimidated by the strongly pro tenant regime in this country and the prospect of a long expensive battle to remove them.
Any feedback appreciated

dennyk · 05-05-2020 7:18pm

Yes, that would probably be considered a tenancy; a written agreement is not strictly required, and 90 days is well over the period that would be considered a short-term let. Your agent has screwed you big time. You should speak with a solicitor ASAP about how to proceed given the current circumstances, since you may not be able to give your tenants notice at this time. You should still be able to issue the 14-day notice of arrears, I believe (and should do so immediately if your solicitor advises it), but you'll have to wait to issue the 28-day notice to vacate until a certain period of time after the current emergency period expires. Your tenants should *not* acquire Part 4 rights during this period, however, even if they end up in there longer than six months due to the current ban on eviction notices.

Unfortunately you can likely expect to have a long and expensive fight on your hands, to never see a dime of rent money, and quite possibly to have a lot of cleanup and/or remodeling work ahead of you once you finally do get them out in a year or three. You might also want to check with your solicitor about whether it would make sense to pursue your agent for the expenses you're going to incur as a result of their negligence.

the_syco · 06-05-2020 11:38am

Priority seat wrote: »

Handled by an airBnB handover agent I used. After its clear no more short term lets he gets a ‘tenant’ in on a 90 day agreed lease with an agreed rent.
However, unbeknownst to me ( owner - working abroad), he incredibly handed over keys( including car park fob) without 1. A written signed lease agreement 2. Any rent in advance 3. Agreeing or taking a deposit 4. Reading the meter

Stop contacting the agent for the moment, and get an Ireland based solicitor. Preferably one recommended by someone else who has property.

Check with the solicitor if the agent is liable for the costs. Also, do a bit of checking on social media to see if the agent & the girl or boyfriend know each other.

Claw Hammer · 06-05-2020 5:47pm

Did you and your spouse live in the apartment at any time?

Donald Trump · 06-05-2020 9:32pm

Seems like squatters to me. Unless the agent had permission to rent out your property they are no better than the fellas who used to rip off students taking deposits for property that they didn't own.

alias no.9 · 07-05-2020 12:09am

Get a solicitor ASAP, one who covers both tenancy and contract law. The first angle you need them to explore is whether any contract exists at all given the lack of consideration {payment}.

If you can get legal opinion {may need a barrister} that no contract has been formed on this basis, regardless of the whatsapps given that everything was conditional on payment, they are squatters {as suggested above} at worst or guests {given the set of keys} who are no longer welcome at best.

Their failure to pay anything at all could be your trump card.

Edit... Needless to say, sack that agent and examine any options to recover any costs from them for negligence.

07-05-2020 1:03am

Priority seat wrote: »

Apartment was briefly let as an airBnB before the world as we know it ended mid March.
Handled by an airBnB handover agent I used. After its clear no more short term lets he gets a ‘tenant’ in on a 90 day agreed lease with an agreed rent.
However, unbeknownst to me ( owner - working abroad), he incredibly handed over keys( including car park fob) without 1. A written signed lease agreement 2. Any rent in advance 3. Agreeing or taking a deposit 4. Reading the meter
The ‘agreement’ was a series of watsapps. ‘Tenant’ promised to pay within first day or two but immediately became redundant upon moving in ( announced the next day).
Into 7th week and no money ever handed over.
Belligerent ultra left anti landlord boyfriend then comes out of woodwork and the lies and accusations begin.
After requests for payment he claims everything imaginable from covid to shingles to pregnancy for his girlfriend ( the one the ‘agreement’ was supposedly with - she’s now taken a back seat).
So my point/question is this. Will they be considered as tenants by the system if no rent was ever handed over. I believe its called consideration in law and is necessary to commence a legal tenancy in some systems. Am I in a strong position to re claim my property myself if they are basically squatters?
I am intimidated by the strongly pro tenant regime in this country and the prospect of a long expensive battle to remove them.
Any feedback appreciated

At any stage was the boyfriend mentioned before? If he's not then I wouldn't even entertain him as he's not the tenant.

Lack of payment, I think your best and only reasonable option is to start proceedings for non payment AND fire the agent

07-05-2020 8:59am

Out of curiosity, if no contract exists, no payment was ever made, the owner was unaware that the person moved in, whose to say they were actually there? theoretically speaking of course.

By the way, I think the handler stitched you up when money from Airbnb dried up. This seems all too convenient for everyone except you.

Priority seat · 07-05-2020 4:19pm

Dav010 wrote: »

Out of curiosity, if no contract exists, no payment was ever made, the owner was unaware that the person moved in, whose to say they were actually there? theoretically speaking of course.

By the way, I think the handler stitched you up when money from Airbnb dried up. This seems all too convenient for everyone except you.

Thanks but she already probably has mail sent to her at the address. That would show a presence there. They probably took photos straight away to show they were there just in case.

Priority seat · 07-05-2020 4:27pm

alias no.9 wrote: »

Get a solicitor ASAP, one who covers both tenancy and contract law. The first angle you need them to explore is whether any contract exists at all given the lack of consideration {payment}.

If you can get legal opinion {may need a barrister} that no contract has been formed on this basis, regardless of the whatsapps given that everything was conditional on payment, they are squatters {as suggested above} at worst or guests {given the set of keys} who are no longer welcome at best.

Their failure to pay anything at all could be your trump card.

Edit... Needless to say, sack that agent and examine any options to recover any costs from them for negligence.

Good advice thanks. I need to approach a solicitor to ask this fundamental question.
However, if i need a barrister to get an opinion as it’s not clear cut then if i evict them likewise the RTB may find it too hard to fine me for the same reason.
If i was to consider this road should I wait until after the 27th June or just get on with it because if they aren’t real tenants what difference does it make.

Priority seat · 07-05-2020 4:36pm

Am certain they don’t, agent was incredibly naive and had been taken in by the girl. He was in the habit of letting her pay late on airbandbs. But with much higher rent and a longer period he ( and therefore me) got caught out. It might have been a scam to set up a history with him and then get him to lower his guard. I just don’t know.
I need to find out if they could be squatters on basis no rent ever paid combined with no written agreement.

Priority seat · 07-05-2020 4:40pm

Donald Trump wrote: »

Seems like squatters to me. Unless the agent had permission to rent out your property they are no better than the fellas who used to rip off students taking deposits for property that they didn't own.

Yeah he only had permission for airbandb lets. I was under the (mistaken impression ) this was a 30 day rolling over airbandb let where money’s paid in advance

Priority seat · 07-05-2020 4:45pm

Claw Hammer wrote: »

Did you and your spouse live in the apartment at any time?

No , our student son lived in it for 18 months up until December. Prior to that it was always long term let.

Priority seat · 07-05-2020 4:47pm

Dav010 wrote: »

Out of curiosity, if no contract exists, no payment was ever made, the owner was unaware that the person moved in, whose to say they were actually there? theoretically speaking of course.

By the way, I think the handler stitched you up when money from Airbnb dried up. This seems all too convenient for everyone except you.

Am certain they don’t, agent was incredibly naive and had been taken in by the girl. He was in the habit of letting her pay late on airbandbs. But with much higher rent and a longer period he ( and therefore me) got caught out. It might have been a scam to set up a history with him and then get him to lower his guard. I just don’t know.
I need to find out if they could be squatters on basis no rent ever paid combined with no written agreement.

JimmyVik · 07-05-2020 4:50pm

That doesnt seem like an agreement to me.
Talk to a solicitor anyway.
This kind of thing is what has killed the rental market in Ireland.

davindub · 07-05-2020 11:40pm

Priority seat wrote: »

Am certain they don’t, agent was incredibly naive and had been taken in by the girl. He was in the habit of letting her pay late on airbandbs. But with much higher rent and a longer period he ( and therefore me) got caught out. It might have been a scam to set up a history with him and then get him to lower his guard. I just don’t know.
I need to find out if they could be squatters on basis no rent ever paid combined with no written agreement.

They are not "squatters" as they are there initially with permission.

Did you have planning permission for the airbnb you were running? If not you will find the courts unsympathetic to your claims that they are not tenants.

JimmyVik · 08-05-2020 11:26am

davindub wrote: »

They are not "squatters" as they are there initially with permission.

Did you have planning permission for the airbnb you were running? If not you will find the courts unsympathetic to your claims that they are not tenants.

Thats not how the courts work.

davindub · 08-05-2020 12:02pm

JimmyVik wrote: »

Thats not how the courts work.

Regarding adverse possession cases or RTA cases brought to the superior courts?

JimmyVik · 08-05-2020 12:11pm

davindub wrote: »

Regarding adverse possession cases or RTA cases brought to the superior courts?

How do you see the court case playing out for the op then?

davindub · 08-05-2020 12:41pm

JimmyVik wrote: »

How do you see the court case playing out for the op then?

Depends on what relief he is looking for and legislation relied on but.....

There is no adverse possession, AP can never arise where the possession began with the owners (or agent of's) permission.

The rental was not exempt from the RTA under the Holiday Letting exemption.

If he takes a district or circuit court case to evict them, it will fail as the RTB is the court of first instance for landlord tenant disputes.

Claw Hammer · 08-05-2020 12:51pm

davindub wrote: »

Depends on what relief he is looking for and legislation relied on but.....

There is no adverse possession, AP can never arise where the possession began with the owners (or agent of's) permission.

The rental was not exempt from the RTA under the Holiday Letting exemption.

If he takes a district or circuit court case to evict them, it will fail as the RTB is the court of first instance for landlord tenant disputes.

that depends on whether they wet in under a tenancy agreement or licence. was the AirbnB agent a licecnsed letting agent? He may not have had authority to bind the o/p. The planning status is irrelevant in any case.

davindub · 08-05-2020 1:42pm

Claw Hammer wrote: »

that depends on whether they wet in under a tenancy agreement or licence. was the AirbnB agent a licecnsed letting agent? He may not have had authority to bind the o/p. The planning status is irrelevant in any case.

An agent of the landlord is an agent whether licensed or not. That argument wouldn't really go anywhere...e.g. the LL's father is the agent so not binding.

Lease vs licence is a long discussion but if possession of the property is granted and for rent paid or by lease, it is nearly certain it is not a licence unless excluded from the RTA (excluding the purpose built student accommodation, which is excluded on the possession and a few other points)

I mention planning permission because it is clear that the RTA excludes holiday lets, an argument which has been made successfully in the district court was that it had planning permission as holiday acc. and is subject to the conditions attached to holiday lets so a tenancy would not be possible under the RTA. It is far from the only argument....but it was effective. I don't think stating you had your property advertised on airbnb would be effective.

Claw Hammer · 08-05-2020 1:45pm

davindub wrote: »

An agent of the landlord is an agent whether licensed or not. That argument wouldn't really go anywhere...e.g. the LL's father is the agent so not binding.

Lease vs licence is a long discussion but if possession of the property is granted and for rent paid or by lease, it is nearly certain it is not a licence unless excluded from the RTA (excluding the purpose built student accommodation, which is excluded on the possession and a few other points)

I mention planning permission because it is clear that the RTA excludes holiday lets, an argument which has been made successfully in the district court was that it had planning permission as holiday acc. and is subject to the conditions attached to holiday lets so a tenancy would not be possible under the RTA. It is far from the only argument....but it was effective. I don't think stating you had your property advertised on airbnb would be effective.

The issue would come down to the authority or ostensible authority of the agent. Impossible to say definitively from the information given.
As for the District Court, just because something happened doesn't mean it was correct in law.

JimmyVik · 08-05-2020 4:43pm

davindub wrote: »

Depends on what relief he is looking for and legislation relied on but.....

There is no adverse possession, AP can never arise where the possession began with the owners (or agent of's) permission.

The rental was not exempt from the RTA under the Holiday Letting exemption.

If he takes a district or circuit court case to evict them, it will fail as the RTB is the court of first instance for landlord tenant disputes.

I think you are over thinking this tbh.

davindub · 08-05-2020 4:50pm

Claw Hammer wrote: »

The issue would come down to the authority or ostensible authority of the agent. Impossible to say definitively from the information given.
As for the District Court, just because something happened doesn't mean it was correct in law.

Your point seems to have changed there, are you saying that only persons or organisations licensed by the PRSA can act with authority of behalf of the landlord? It is clear from the OP that the agent could manage the property, or maybe the OP could clarfiy that if not rather than guessing.

I really dislike arguments similar to the xxxx court was incorrect at times therefore you don't consider the judgements to be a valid interpretation of the law or that your own jurisprudence is superior because of that fact.

How do you think the planning permission of the property is irrelevant as to providing evidence that the property is used for holiday accommodation? Certainly there are no tests in the legislation or HC.

Eric Cartman · 08-05-2020 4:56pm

we had this before with Airbnb clients. 90 days, no part 4 rights, claim trespassing and call the gardai, don't even mention the texts.

As to how your agent was gullible enough to let it without a deposit or any kind of other payment / a card to charge against is beyond me. Atlas with some corporate / short let services you could bill the card to high heaven.

Claw Hammer · 08-05-2020 4:59pm

davindub wrote: »

Your point seems to have changed there, are you saying that only persons or organisations licensed by the PRSA can act with authority of behalf of the landlord? It is clear from the OP that the agent could manage the property, or maybe the OP could clarfiy that if not rather than guessing.

I really dislike arguments similar to the xxxx court was incorrect at times therefore you don't consider the judgements to be a valid interpretation of the law or that your own jurisprudence is superior because of that fact.

How do you think the planning permission of the property is irrelevant as to providing evidence that the property is used for holiday accommodation? Certainly there are no tests in the legislation or HC.

All of the facts are needed but it may be possible that it was clear the person who handed over the keys had no authority to bind the owner. The fact that he is not registered for the purpose of entering ettig agreements may be relevant.
All that has been said here about courts is some vague reference to the District Court. Without knowing the facts and without knowing the arguments it can't be said whther the District Court was correct or not. I don't put a lot of faith in the District Court generally.

The planning status is not relevant to the problem the o/p now has. The courts won't be looking into it.
The o/p is now aced with an issue of how to proceed.
Is there a letting agreement in place or not. Does the o/p have to go to the RTB or go to court.
There is not enough information to say on the facts given.
The question of whether a letting is for a holiday or not is an issue of fact.
the duration of the letting, whether or not household accounts were transferred, whether linen and towels were supplied, the regularity of cleaning, the amount of the deposit and the payment frequency would all be relevant.

JimmyVik · 08-05-2020 5:04pm

Eric Cartman wrote: »

we had this before with Airbnb clients. 90 days, no part 4 rights, claim trespassing and call the gardai, don't even mention the texts.

As to how your agent was gullible enough to let it without a deposit or any kind of other payment / a card to charge against is beyond me. Atlas with some corporate / short let services you could bill the card to high heaven.

Maybe set the solicitor on the agent?

davindub · 09-05-2020 8:36am

Claw Hammer wrote: »

All of the facts are needed but it may be possible that it was clear the person who handed over the keys had no authority to bind the owner. The fact that he is not registered for the purpose of entering ettig agreements may be relevant.
All that has been said here about courts is some vague reference to the District Court. Without knowing the facts and without knowing the arguments it can't be said whther the District Court was correct or not. I don't put a lot of faith in the District Court generally.

The planning status is not relevant to the problem the o/p now has. The courts won't be looking into it.
The o/p is now aced with an issue of how to proceed.
Is there a letting agreement in place or not. Does the o/p have to go to the RTB or go to court.
There is not enough information to say on the facts given.
The question of whether a letting is for a holiday or not is an issue of fact.
the duration of the letting, whether or not household accounts were transferred, whether linen and towels were supplied, the regularity of cleaning, the amount of the deposit and the payment frequency would all be relevant.

It is definitely a case for the RTB. Yes whether or not a agent is licensed is relevant (in the same manner the planning permission is relevant to decide whether or not a tenancy) but it's very common for an agent not to be licensed so not conclusive.

I don't know what your experience is of the superior courts and whether it was a slip of the tongue to say "look into", but you should be aware that in the superior courts, each party makes their own arguments as to whether the RTA applies and as I said the planning permission has been used (there was another case involving a commercial guesthouse in the news a few years ago where it was held not a residential letting even though the leasee had not operated a guesthouse) to prove exclusion from the act.

Otherwise it is very difficult to prove that lettings are holiday lettings if the tenant refuses to vacate a dwelling after a longer let. Towels, payment frequencies, where advertised etc would not exactly be conclusive in this situation, almost trivial in my opinion unless the LL is running something like a guesthouse. I think airbnb operators are deluded that the courts will be certain to accept what is essentially a short term let (you frequently see minimum period 1 month, etc) as a holiday letting.

Anyway I have a feeling the above will feature in a few cases over the next 12 months so we can wait to see what tests the courts will apply.

Claw Hammer · 11-05-2020 12:33pm

davindub wrote: »

It is definitely a case for the RTB. Yes whether or not a agent is licensed is relevant (in the same manner the planning permission is relevant to decide whether or not a tenancy) but it's very common for an agent not to be licensed so not conclusive.

I don't know what your experience is of the superior courts and whether it was a slip of the tongue to say "look into", but you should be aware that in the superior courts, each party makes their own arguments as to whether the RTA applies and as I said the planning permission has been used (there was another case involving a commercial guesthouse in the news a few years ago where it was held not a residential letting even though the leasee had not operated a guesthouse) to prove exclusion from the act.

Otherwise it is very difficult to prove that lettings are holiday lettings if the tenant refuses to vacate a dwelling after a longer let. Towels, payment frequencies, where advertised etc would not exactly be conclusive in this situation, almost trivial in my opinion unless the LL is running something like a guesthouse. I think airbnb operators are deluded that the courts will be certain to accept what is essentially a short term let (you frequently see minimum period 1 month, etc) as a holiday letting.

Anyway I have a feeling the above will feature in a few cases over the next 12 months so we can wait to see what tests the courts will apply.

The guest house case was decided on the basis of the landlord livig i the same dwelling. There is no decided case where the issue of planning perission for user determined whether a tenancy existed.
The case turns on ostensible authority. If a contract is void there is no tenancy.
Whatever law books you have read don't cover that situation.

davindub · 11-05-2020 2:27pm

Claw Hammer wrote: »

The guest house case was decided on the basis of the landlord livig i the same dwelling. There is no decided case where the issue of planning perission for user determined whether a tenancy existed.
The case turns on ostensible authority. If a contract is void there is no tenancy.
Whatever law books you have read don't cover that situation.

You are refering to a different case (HC) I believe. I have given you two examples, one case where I was present in court, one from the media. Your claim that there is no decided case is therefore incorrect.

Yes, reading lawbooks was pretty much recommended when I studied law but that was a long time ago.....but I suspect you meant that remark to be demeaning.

Anyway, just so you are aware:

"Handled by an airBnB handover agent I used" (OP's words)
= actual authority

"I asked the leasee to deal with the agent"
= Ostensible, which is actually an argument the leasee would make if actual authority did not exist.

Claw Hammer · 11-05-2020 3:06pm

davindub wrote: »

You are refering to a different case (HC) I believe. I have given you two examples, one case where I was present in court, one from the media. Your claim that there is no decided case is therefore incorrect.

Yes, reading lawbooks was pretty much recommended when I studied law but that was a long time ago.....but I suspect you meant that remark to be demeaning.

Anyway, just so you are aware:

"Handled by an airBnB handover agent I used" (OP's words)
= actual authority

"I asked the leasee to deal with the agent"
= Ostensible, which is actually an argument the leasee would make if actual authority did not exist.

What HC case are you referring to? Does authority for AIRbnb extend to giving a legal interest to anyone in the premises. How can the agent give what he does't have?
when does he say he asked the lessee to deal with the agent? had he given the "agent" authority to enter a 90 day lease? He says it happened unknown to him.

davindub · 11-05-2020 5:15pm

Claw Hammer wrote: »

What HC case are you referring to? Does authority for AIRbnb extend to giving a legal interest to anyone in the premises. How can the agent give what he does't have?
when does he say he asked the lessee to deal with the agent? had he given the "agent" authority to enter a 90 day lease? He says it happened unknown to him.

Sorry that second quote may have been confusing - The quote was to show what would be relevant to ostensible authority. The absence of such an argument means that ostensible authority is not relevant.

You stated specifically that ostensible authority was the issue in this case.

The OP did not state the agent exceeded their authority, you stated the agent may not have had authority as an unlicensed person.

Look I'll leave it at that, if you recap your posts you can see what you have posted and what the OP posted.

Claw Hammer · 12-05-2020 11:47am

davindub wrote: »

Sorry that second quote may have been confusing - The quote was to show what would be relevant to ostensible authority. The absence of such an argument means that ostensible authority is not relevant.

You stated specifically that ostensible authority was the issue in this case.

The OP did not state the agent exceeded their authority, you stated the agent may not have had authority as an unlicensed person.

Look I'll leave it at that, if you recap your posts you can see what you have posted and what the OP posted.

I am discussing what you have posted. You purported to quote the o/p and now can't show where the o/p said anything. You haven't said what case you are referring to. If you were there you would know the name of it.
Where did the o/p say the agent had not exceeded their authority?
If you cannot quote the o/p accurately what are the chances you are referring to these court cases accurately?

davindub · 12-05-2020 1:00pm

Claw Hammer wrote: »

I am discussing what you have posted. You purported to quote the o/p and now can't show where the o/p said anything. You haven't said what case you are referring to. If you were there you would know the name of it.
Where did the o/p say the agent had not exceeded their authority?
If you cannot quote the o/p accurately what are the chances you are referring to these court cases accurately?

Lol, the OP has not said a lot of things. We might be here all day satisfying your need to discuss possible outcomes based on different scenarios.

There is so much wrong with your posts, I have just lost the will to discuss them with you. If you need clarification on why the following examples are nonsense ask in the legal forum.

Examples:

Is the agent licensed? If not they may have exceeded their authority as agent.

Courts will not look into the planning permission of the property.

There are no decided cases where the planning permission was relevant.

How can the agent transfer legal rights to the property he does not possess?

Ostensible Authority VS actual Authority - one is a claim for the leasee, the other is a claim for the principle.

Claw Hammer · 12-05-2020 1:36pm

davindub wrote: »

Lol, the OP has not said a lot of things. We might be here all day satisfying your need to discuss possible outcomes based on different scenarios.

There is so much wrong with your posts, I have just lost the will to discuss them with you. If you need clarification on why the following examples are nonsense ask in the legal forum.

Examples:

Is the agent licensed? If not they may have exceeded their authority as agent.

Courts will not look into the planning permission of the property.

There are no decided cases where the planning permission was relevant.

How can the agent transfer legal rights to the property he does not possess?

Ostensible Authority VS actual Authority - one is a claim for the leasee, the other is a claim for the principle.

Still not answering any questions. What is this court case you keep talking about?

ted1 · 12-05-2020 3:03pm

Op how many days have they been there now ?

Priority seat · 13-05-2020 9:28am

Claw Hammer wrote: »

What HC case are you referring to? Does authority for AIRbnb extend to giving a legal interest to anyone in the premises. How can the agent give what he does't have?
when does he say he asked the lessee to deal with the agent? had he given the "agent" authority to enter a 90 day lease? He says it happened unknown to him.

The agent was my agent in an airbnb capacity. When this longer term situation came up it was put to me that it would be run on a rolling 30 day basis ( for a total of 90). No rent or lease agreement was mentioned nor was a deposit. All of this was consistent with an airbnb let which is what I took this to be. As far as i’m aware no airbnb let can commence until payment has been taken in advance. Of course this didn’t happen in my case and it turns out the let was not run through the airbnb platform.
All of this i discovered down the line. The agent was never authorised by me to engage in a long term ( more formal) let. So this wasn’t an airbnb and it wasn’t a formal let so thats my predicament. As for going for the agent in terms of forcing him to legally evict them my solicitor is examining that angle but it has downsides as well.

Priority seat · 24-05-2020 3:58am

ted1 wrote: »

Op how many days have they been there now ?

70

Priority seat · 25-06-2020 8:33am

ted1 wrote: »

Op how many days have they been there now ?

100 days , original ‘agreement’ was 90.
No sign of any payment , no personal details other than 1 name of one occupant. They are not replying to my solicitors emails.
But they are there we have confirmed that.
Will probably be suing the agent.

Priority seat · 09-07-2020 9:48am

Also the `tenant` is refusing to supply any personal details like her home address or the name of the partner she is occupying with.
She is refusing to supply HAP papers so I the 'landlord' can at least get some income. She keeps saying she will produce them but 4 months in and no sign despite repeated requests from my solicitor.
What gets me is that as a landlord I apparently cannot refuse a HAP case if my tenant falls on bad times yet there is no obligation on them to enact a HAP application to ensure the rent gets paid.
or do i have this wrong?

dennyk · 09-07-2020 10:42am

Priority seat wrote: »

What gets me is that as a landlord I apparently cannot refuse a HAP case if my tenant falls on bad times yet there is no obligation on them to enact a HAP application to ensure the rent gets paid.
or do i have this wrong?

HAP or no, you can give them notice (once the eviction ban expires) if they are in arrears and don't correct it within 14 days of you giving them notice of said arrears. Being in receipt of HAP doesn't absolve them of the responsibility to ensure that the rent is paid as agreed. It'd usually be best to try to work with a tenant who is just starting on HAP rather than instantly serving notice if there are some minor delays at the beginning of the process, but your tenant here is clearly taking the piss. Just make sure you follow the correct procedure to the letter. Unfortunately it will likely end up being a long fight to actually get them out, though, and you probably won't ever see a penny of that rent owed in the end.

Claw Hammer · 09-07-2020 10:54am

I am surprised you haven't been to a solicitor already. Expecting cooperation from an occupant like that is crazy.

LJ12345 · 09-07-2020 3:19pm

Contact threshold to get their viewpoint on this. Prtb will likely just say they’re a tenant, it’s their easy way out of giving a landlord advise on this and maybe threshold will too but I’d be inclined towards contacting threshold to get slightly more balanced guidance. If there’s any chance they’re not a tenant you need to know ASAP.

Claw Hammer · 10-07-2020 10:16am

It is long past time for going to Threshold or such like. A solicitor should e retained. Threshold only advise tenants anyway.

TSQ · 10-07-2020 2:50pm

Have been following this thread as I believe I have had some lucky escapes and am now refusing to let my property during covid. Important to note that eviction is allowed without cause for tenancies up to 6 months. So the op needs to serve notice of eviction giving the correct notice period, asap... under no circumstances let the tenants create a part 4 tenancy. I realise you cant actually evict anyone at the moment, and that allegedly a part 4 tenancy cant be created while the eviction ban is ongoing, but I dont trust the legislation not to have some anti-landlord Twist that would impact the op if he doesnt serve notice to leave. Also, the agent, if he let to this girl via airbnb before, will be able to go back and look up some information on her from previous bookings, including a profile photo, full name, email address and phone number, and maybe her town or city of residence. A good place to start with that info (If the agent will give it to you) is facebook.... a name is not unique, but if you know what she looks like you can match her up with the right mary bloggs on Facebook.... and see who she hangs with. I have used FB in the past to check bonafides of tenants, and you would be surprised how often it works.

Cuddlesworth · 10-07-2020 4:06pm

Priority seat wrote: »

Also the `tenant` is refusing to supply any personal details like her home address or the name of the partner she is occupying with.
She is refusing to supply HAP papers so I the 'landlord' can at least get some income. She keeps saying she will produce them but 4 months in and no sign despite repeated requests from my solicitor.
What gets me is that as a landlord I apparently cannot refuse a HAP case if my tenant falls on bad times yet there is no obligation on them to enact a HAP application to ensure the rent gets paid.
or do i have this wrong?

This has got to be a joke?

They knew exactly what they were doing, got into the property without lease or deposit and never paid a cent from day one. You will never see any money from them. These are the professionals and this the MO.

Start the eviction process now. You have wasted 4 months, so that's another 4 months on you. Its not on the agent, its on you. The eviction ban means you can't evict them right now. It doesn't mean you can't get the order to process later.

LJ12345 · 10-07-2020 6:15pm

Cuddlesworth wrote: »

This has got to be a joke?

They knew exactly what they were doing, got into the property without lease or deposit and never paid a cent from day one. You will never see any money from them. These are the professionals and this the MO.

Start the eviction process now. You have wasted 4 months, so that's another 4 months on you. Its not on the agent, its on you. The eviction ban means you can't evict them right now. It doesn't mean you can't get the order to process later.

+1 could well be a backlog in evictions to process, you need to be as close to the front of that queue as possible. I can’t believe this can happen. I’m really curious if they’ve been confirmed as tenants without any payment or lease, there’s no record of them having any rights to live there.

As an add on I’d still call threshold. Pretend you’re the people holding your property in this situation and find out what the advice is. They may straight out say it’s not a tenancy and you'd atleast know where you stand.

Cuddlesworth · 11-07-2020 11:21pm

LJ12345 wrote: »

+1 could well be a backlog in evictions to process, you need to be as close to the front of that queue as possible. I can’t believe this can happen. I’m really curious if they’ve been confirmed as tenants without any payment or lease, there’s no record of them having any rights to live there.

As an add on I’d still call threshold. Pretend you’re the people holding your property in this situation and find out what the advice is. They may straight out say it’s not a tenancy and you'd atleast know where you stand.

Recently short term lets like AirBnB (last few years)are a haven for certain practises. They go into the property, stay past the date and claim they are tenants. Gaurds won't evict them, saying its a Civil Matter. So the only real option is to either log a RTB case and evict, or log a court case and convince the judge the RTB is not required. Once the eviction date rolls near, onto the next place.

LJ12345 · 12-07-2020 5:44pm

Cuddlesworth wrote: »

Recently short term lets like AirBnB (last few years)are a haven for certain practises. They go into the property, stay past the date and claim they are tenants. Gaurds won't evict them, saying its a Civil Matter. So the only real option is to either log a RTB case and evict, or log a court case and convince the judge the RTB is not required. Once the eviction date rolls near, onto the next place.

I’m finding this hard to believe. Where did you hear it? Airbnb have the payment information for these holiday homes and those payment details are associated with a separate ‘home’ address. I understand if a dispute arises after the Airbnb term and can be proved by the owner the renter can be charged by Airbnb. If they decide to stay on and they’re not invited to stay there, they’re trespassing.

sanfranbest · 12-07-2020 7:36pm

Cuddlesworth wrote: »

Recently short term lets like AirBnB (last few years)are a haven for certain practises. They go into the property, stay past the date and claim they are tenants. Gaurds won't evict them, saying its a Civil Matter. So the only real option is to either log a RTB case and evict, or log a court case and convince the judge the RTB is not required. Once the eviction date rolls near, onto the next place.

I have been operating an AirBnB apartment in Dublin for the past few years and I have never heard that???
Also I am always hesitant with renters that have a local address, its a red flag, why would a person from Dublin want to rent an Airbnb in Dublin?
99% of my guests are from outside Ireland, mostly from the USA.
Regarding the pandemic, all my bookings from 13th March to end of August were cancelled and I refunded all payments 100%.
So maybe new bookings may come from Irish people staying in Ireland, changed times for sure,,,,,,,,,,,

What defines a tenant and rights of the owner

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