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Is an isolator needed for Electric Vehicle Chargepoint?

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13

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    #62
    2011
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,532 Mod ✭✭✭✭2011


    Alun wrote: »
    And no, sorry, no chargepoint is entirely "dumb".

    This is 100% dumb:

    https://www.screwfix.ie/p/abb-32a-2p-e-surface-socket-250v/9990F?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIltzmq5X-5wIVx9DeCh2VKAIEEAQYBCABEgIRYvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds


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    #63
    Alun
    Registered Users Posts: 21,419 ✭✭✭✭Alun


    2011 wrote: »
    This is 100% dumb:

    https://www.screwfix.ie/p/abb-32a-2p-e-surface-socket-250v/9990F?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIltzmq5X-5wIVx9DeCh2VKAIEEAQYBCABEgIRYvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds
    Of course it is, but that is not a chargepoint (EVSE), it's a socket. You can plug a portable EVSE, aka granny cable, into it but that doesn't make it a chargepoint any more than a 13A socket in my house that I can plug my granny cable into is a chargepoint.


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    #64
    2011
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,532 Mod ✭✭✭✭2011


    Alun wrote: »
    Of course it is, but that is not a chargepoint (EVSE), it's a socket.

    I think we are splitting hairs here. I did describe it as a dumb socket which seems to align with what you are saying.

    You can plug a portable EVSE, aka granny cable, into it but that doesn't make it a chargepoint any more than a 13A socket in my house that I can plug my granny cable into is a chargepoint.

    This does not align with the picture you posted (post #58). It states that the "blue industrial adapter" allows for 3.7 kW which is more than 13A.

    I know that faster charging is possible with a different arrangement, but this is still an option.


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    #65
    Alun
    Registered Users Posts: 21,419 ✭✭✭✭Alun


    2011 wrote: »
    I think we are splitting hairs here. I did describe it as a dumb socket which seems to align with what you are saying.
    What you showed there is a dumb socket, yes. What we're discussing on this thread are "Electrical Vehicle Chargepoints" which are not the same thing as I've explained over and over again.

    The most important function an EVSE performs is to inform the vehicle's charger of the maximum charging current it can supply. Most domestic EVSEs can be connected up to either a 16A or 32A supply, and you have to configure them using switches or jumpers on the control board to set the maximum current.

    If you didn't have this, the car would have no idea of how much current to draw and might try to pull 32A from a 16A supply.
    This does not align with the picture you posted (post #58). It states that the "blue industrial adapter" allows for 3.7 kW which is more than 13A.

    I know that faster charging is possible with a different arrangement, but this is still an option.
    That's something specific to Tesla. The vast majority of portable EVSE's or granny cables are supplied with fixed 13A plugs, but the Tesla version comes with optional short adapter cables that plug into it with different plugs on them. Their version appears to be able to supply 16A if fitted with a suitable plug.


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    #66
    2011
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,532 Mod ✭✭✭✭2011


    Alun wrote: »
    What you showed there is a dumb socket, yes. What we're discussing on this thread are "Electrical Vehicle Chargepoints" which are not the same thing as I've explained over and over again.

    If I plug a vehicle into a dumb socket (as shown) that was installed with the sole purpose to charge an EV some may argue that it is a charge point.

    Anyway I understand your point, lets leave it there.
    The most important function an EVSE performs is to inform the vehicle's charger of the maximum charging current it can supply. Most domestic EVSEs can be connected up to either a 16A or 32A supply, and you have to configure them using switches or jumpers on the control board to set the maximum current.

    Fair point, I don't disagree.
    If you didn't have this, the car would have no idea of how much current to draw and might try to pull 32A from a 16A supply.

    But if we look at the photo you posted the Tesla can tell the difference between a 13A socket outlet and a 16A socket outlet depending on the lead selected.
    That's something specific to Tesla.

    I'm not disputing that.


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    #67
    Alun
    Registered Users Posts: 21,419 ✭✭✭✭Alun


    2011 wrote: »
    But if we look at the photo you posted the Tesla can tell the difference between a 13A socket outlet and a 16A socket outlet depending on the lead selected.
    True, and I have to admit I didn't know how it did that.

    After some digging I found this thread on a Tesla forum ..

    https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/heres-how-to-charge-with-32a-commando-in-uk.163439/

    It appears that some UMC's (Universal Mobile Cable - Tesla speak for their portable EVSE / granny cable) are even 32A capable with the right adapter, and looking at the photos of the connectors on the adapters (see post #27), it looks like there's probably some kind of signalling going on between the adapter and the UMC to indicate to it what the max charging current is. Also see post #46.


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    #68
    KCross
    Registered Users Posts: 12,070 ✭✭✭✭KCross


    A portable charge point which charges at ~10A doesnt require an isolator as it just plugs into a standard outdoor 3-pin socket. It is technically equivalent to a standard 32A charge point, except for the current involved.

    With that in mind, I dont really see why an isolator would be required for one and not the other unless the current involved has a bearing on whether something gets an isolator?


    Really the whole thing boils down to why an isolator is required in any instance/appliance and then deciding if a 32A wall mounted charge point at home fits the same criteria or not.

    Personally, if its not called out in the regs I'd lean towards not having it especially if the EVSE has an inbuilt RCBO which the most common ones do.... Rolec, Zappi etc.


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    #69
    2011
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,532 Mod ✭✭✭✭2011


    Alun wrote: »
    True, and I have to admit I didn't know how it did that.

    I think you have answered your own question with this:
    it looks like there's probably some kind of signalling going on between the adapter and the UMC to indicate to it what the max charging current is.



    ....and this is from post #46 that you linked to:
    The other end of what you have pictured is blue and looks just like the one that came with the car, only slightly bigger. If you have a 32A Commando socket, then it will hit into that.


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    #70
    Alun
    Registered Users Posts: 21,419 ✭✭✭✭Alun


    Yes, the layout of the end of the adapter cable looks just like a smaller version of the standard type 2 charging cable that plugs into a fixed EVSE. The smallest two pins look like they may be the signalling pins.


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    #71
    quietsailor
    Registered Users Posts: 1,428 ✭✭✭quietsailor


    Just to add to the confusion - there are portable evse aka "Granny cables" out there that are switchable between 10A and 16A such as a Morec Portable EV charger cable switchable charging box 10/16A

    I have one and it defaults to 10A when you plug it in, regardless of what it was set to when last plugged out


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    #72
    2011
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,532 Mod ✭✭✭✭2011


    Alun wrote: »
    Yes, the layout of the end of the adapter cable looks just like a smaller version of the standard type 2 charging cable that plugs into a fixed EVSE. The smallest two pins look like they may be the signalling pins.


    So after all of that we seem to agree :D


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    #73
    Alun
    Registered Users Posts: 21,419 ✭✭✭✭Alun


    KCross wrote: »
    With that in mind, I dont really see why an isolator would be required for one and not the other unless the current involved has a bearing on whether something gets an isolator?
    Maybe because in the case of a portable EVSE, if it malfunctions in any way you can simply switch it off at the plug or pull the plug out. In the case of a wall-mounted one, it's fixed so you don't have that option.


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    #74
    2011
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,532 Mod ✭✭✭✭2011


    Alun wrote: »
    Maybe because in the case of a portable EVSE, if it malfunctions in any way you can simply switch it off at the plug or pull the plug out. In the case of a wall-mounted one, it's fixed so you don't have that option.

    It’s back to the argument of whether it is a fixed appliance (example: an instantaneous shower) which needs a local isolator.

    Or a portable appliance plugged into a dumb socket (example: a power washer) which does not require a local isolator.


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    #75
    KCross
    Registered Users Posts: 12,070 ✭✭✭✭KCross


    Alun wrote: »
    Maybe because in the case of a portable EVSE, if it malfunctions in any way you can simply switch it off at the plug or pull the plug out. In the case of a wall-mounted one, it's fixed so you don't have that option.

    I know its not the case for all of them but the Rolec's have an RCBO that you can physically trip like you can at your consumer unit.

    In my case, I can trip it on the unit itself and/or trip it at the consumer unit as it is on a dedicated circuit so has its own RCBO there too.

    EDIT: I'd also add that the typical failure you get (rare as it is) with a granny cable is that it overheats at the plug... you wont be putting your hand in there to plug it out! ;). So, you'd have to go to your consumer unit to trip the switch in that case.


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    #76
    Alun
    Registered Users Posts: 21,419 ✭✭✭✭Alun


    2011 wrote: »
    So after all of that we seem to agree :D
    Kind of. You still couldn't chop off that adapter plug and wire a car plug into it and expect it to work (apart from the fact that it would be waaay too short!). In the case of the Tesla UMC there appears to be a double handshake going on. The adapter plug somehow signals to the UMC what kind of supply it's connected to and the UMC signals the same to the car using the standard protocol defined in J1772.


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    #77
    2011
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,532 Mod ✭✭✭✭2011


    Alun wrote: »
    Kind of.

    I’ll take that :D
    You still couldn't chop off that adapter plug and wire a car plug into it and expect it to work (apart from the fact that it would be waaay too short!).

    Agreed.

    Personally if I had a Tesla I would want a Tesla branded charging point.
    In the case of the Tesla UMC there appears to be a double handshake going on. The adapter plug somehow signals to the UMC what kind of supply it's connected to and the UMC signals the same to the car using the standard protocol defined in J1772.

    Yes.


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    #78
    planck26
    Registered Users Posts: 19 ✭planck26


    Risteard81 wrote: »
    Which still means that you don't possess a copy to check definitive rules from as opposed to the Draft for Public Consultation, so there's no need for your silly games.

    So.... if I’ve followed this correctly the final version of the revised wiring regs should now be published. Are we any wiser as to whether an isolator is required?


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    #79
    2011
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,532 Mod ✭✭✭✭2011


    planck26 wrote: »
    So.... if I’ve followed this correctly the final version of the revised wiring regs should now be published.

    They are printed a while now and available to purchase since the 6th last.
    ET101 is still in effect and there are no changes since the latest amendment.
    Are we any wiser as to whether an isolator is required?

    It is exactly as stated n this thread. If the socket used for charging is just a dumb socket no isolator is required. If it is a fixed appliance then just like any other fixed appliance an isolator is required.


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    #80
    KCross
    Registered Users Posts: 12,070 ✭✭✭✭KCross


    2011 wrote: »
    It is exactly as stated n this thread. If the socket used for charging is just a dumb socket no isolator is required. If it is a fixed appliance then just like any other fixed appliance an isolator is required.

    Felexicon wrote: »
    I've been speaking to RECI about it. New regs have not changed the wording around this but they are adamant that all installs going forward need an isolator regardless of lenght of run, tethered or untethered.

    Looks like the jury is still out on this one.

    The regs should be more definitive and clarification given as it seems it’s still open to interpretation.


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    #81
    Lumen
    Registered Users Posts: 31,009 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    Scenario...

    You go on holiday, leaving your EV plugged in to trickle charge.

    A tree falls on your EVSE or it shorts and goes on fire.

    Without an external isolator whoever arrives on scene has to break into your house to trip the switch or cut the house supply.

    Is it much harder to cut the whole house supply than to switch off the isolator?


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    #82
    2011
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,532 Mod ✭✭✭✭2011


    Lumen wrote: »
    Scenario...

    You go on holiday, leaving your EV plugged in to trickle charge.

    I would think that it is inadvisable, anyway let's assume that someone has done exactly this.
    A tree falls on your EVSE or it shorts and goes on fire.

    Without an external isolator whoever arrives on scene has to break into your house to trip the switch or cut the house supply.

    Is it much harder to cut the whole house supply than to switch off the isolator?

    If this was genuinely a concern surely it would not make sense to have the isolator local to the charging point as approaching it would be unsafe due to the fire? In fact a remote emergency stop would be a far better way of mitigating the risk posed by a burning EV.


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    #83
    Felexicon
    Registered Users Posts: 3,404 ✭✭✭Felexicon


    2011 wrote: »
    I would think that it is inadvisable, anyway let's assume that someone has done exactly this.



    If this was genuinely a concern surely it would not make sense to have the isolator local to the charging point as approaching it would be unsafe due to the fire? In fact a remote emergency stop would be a far better way of mitigating the risk posed by a burning EV.

    Fire was one of the main reasons used to justify the need for an isolator by the RECI inspector I spoke to.

    I would be of the same thinking as you 're remote switch. The last thing I'm doing is running towards a fire to knock off an isolator


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    #84
    planck26
    Registered Users Posts: 19 ✭planck26


    Thanks all for your input on this. Just to wrap it up here’s a photo (finally) of the installed chargepoint, complete with isolation switch on the back of the post.


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    #85
    styo
    Registered Users Posts: 78 ✭✭styo


    planck26 wrote: »
    Hi,
    I'm getting different opinions as to whether an outdoor isolator switch is required at a domestic electric vehicle chargepoint. Reading earlier threads on this it seems there was to be an update to the wiring regulations a few months ago, but I haven't seen a definitive answer. Can anyone clarify the situation, as I'd rather not have one if not absolutely necessary?

    I believe the answer is yes. Also be aware that as a major appliance, that needs a dedicated power upgrade at PSU, you need to get a certified electrician to do this work. He/She will need to issue you with a certificate which you should keep. Even if you do the majority of the donkey work, so far as I am aware, a certified electrician has to sign off, so simplest thing to do is ask your electrician.

    My guy was great, I think he charged me 100/150 euros, parts (other than charger) included. ESB turned up a few months later with electrician to validate install.

    Don't DIY this one, is my advice - hand it over. So far as I am aware, you'd be breaking ESB rules, and god help you regarding home insurance if you end up with some kind of fault causing damage.

    my 2c.


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    #86
    styo
    Registered Users Posts: 78 ✭✭styo


    2011 wrote: »
    I’m not saying you should or shouldn’t I would go with whatever IS10101 requires. I’m just stating that I don’t see it as a fixed appliance.

    well it is considered to be.


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    #87
    2011
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,532 Mod ✭✭✭✭2011


    styo wrote: »
    well it is considered to be.

    “Commando style” socket outlets have never been considered fixed appliances.

    I have one of these socket outlets on the front of my house.
    Do you think this needs an isolator?


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    #88
    styo
    Registered Users Posts: 78 ✭✭styo


    2011 wrote: »
    “Commando style” socket outlets have never been considered fixed appliances.

    I have one of these socket outlets on the front of my house.
    Do you think this needs an isolator?

    An EV charge point is not a commando style socket on the end of a bit of oven cable.

    It's a computer that negotiates variable charging with the car for starters.


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    #89
    2011
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,532 Mod ✭✭✭✭2011


    styo wrote: »
    An EV charge point is not a commando style socket on the end of a bit of oven cable.

    That is exactly my point. The example you gave is not specifically an EV charge point, it is a dumb socket that can be used to charge an EV.

    So it would seem that you agree that a commando style socket does not require an isolator?


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    #90
    Risteard81
    Registered Users Posts: 2,567 ✭✭✭Risteard81


    2011 wrote: »
    That is exactly my point. The example you gave is not specifically an EV charge point, it is a dumb socket that can be used to charge an EV.

    So it would seem that you agree that a commando style socket does not require an isolator?
    An EVSE isn't the same as a commando socket though. It has CP (Control Pilot) and PP (Proximity Pilot) connections also. The EV, lead and EVSE will all communicate to establish charging rate and only then will the contactor be closed.


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    #91
    2011
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,532 Mod ✭✭✭✭2011


    Risteard81 wrote: »
    An EVSE isn't the same as a commando socket though. It has CP (Control Pilot) and PP (Proximity Pilot) connections also. The EV, lead and EVSE will all communicate to establish charging rate and only then will the contactor be closed.


    So you agree that a suitably positioned commando socket can be used to charge an EV?

    ....and do you believe that every commando socket needs an isolator?


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