224 bent frame

Nibs05 · 10-07-2020 9:03pm #1

After seeing numerous photos of 224 with a bent frame on social media, I wonder if the rest of the 201’s are suspect from the same issues, I probably guess it’s the end for 224.

11-07-2020 12:41pm

Nibs05 wrote: »

After seeing numerous photos of 224 with a bent frame on social media, I wonder if the rest of the 201’s are suspect from the same issues, I probably guess it’s the end for 224.

It's broken not just bent. It's a gonner and it's very serious for the 201 class.

sweet_trip · 11-07-2020 4:12pm

Post photos?

Nibs05 · 11-07-2020 4:30pm

https://imgur.com/TSuAjm3

https://imgur.com/ohu5Cjs

(Not my pic, credit to the publisher on the Facebook group Irish railways past and present )

Itssoeasy · 11-07-2020 5:20pm

Even if I didn't know exactly what the issue with 224 it's clear to see there's an issue just by looking at the way the body of the loco looks wrong which is It looks like the Panal isn't on properly. So was it in a shunt at some point ? It'd be a shame if it went to way of 143(exact no maybe wrong it was a 141 I know that for sure) that had a bent frame and was restricted to 40mph.

11-07-2020 10:26pm

The frame has broken. Rather than a shunt which might bend a frame this breakage is due to crack propagation over an extended period, possibly years. As the crack(s) grew the frames flexed more thus accelerating the process until there was insufficient metal remaining. Finally the two sides parted. It's been creaking for a long time.

It's serious because such a major failure should never be expected to occur over the life of a loco. The start of the failure was possibly corrosion but it suggest little or no margin in the design for corrosion.

With locos doing the same tasks it would be reasonable to expect this to be the case in varying severity in the others.

At best 230 will return with 224's innards. At worst there will be more stopped, permanantly.

Who knows, some of the non push pulls might come back.

SeanW · 12-07-2020 12:55am

Are the other locos being checked for this problem?

Markcheese · 12-07-2020 10:28am

Could it be a one off ?
A flaw in the steel or something , made worse by corrosion / stress at that point ...

Losty Dublin · 12-07-2020 8:48pm

Markcheese wrote: »

Could it be a one off ?
A flaw in the steel or something , made worse by corrosion / stress at that point ...

The first thing they did was to take samples from the frame for analysis, both in the in-house CIE labs and external labs. Service records, driver logs, CCTV, engine logs; all of these will be checked to see if other factors can be counted or discounted here.

It could possibly be a one off, Fratello describes it excellently as to likely what it could be. However, if it’s a design or material flaw then a lot of EMD locos worldwide could end be grounded or withdrawn from traffic.

Itssoeasy · 13-07-2020 11:09pm

Losty Dublin wrote: »

The first thing they did was to take samples from the frame for analysis, both in the in-house CIE labs and external labs. Service records, driver logs, CCTV, engine logs; all of these will be checked to see if other factors can be counted or discounted here.

It could possibly be a one off, Fratello describes it excellently as to likely what it could be. However, if it’s a design or material flaw then a lot of EMD locos worldwide could end be grounded or withdrawn from traffic.

If this happens then the class 66 will be likewise affected and that will cause chaos.

Jamie2k9 · 14-07-2020 11:33am

If it did become such an issue that 201's would need to be withdrawn, interesting to see what they would do.

IV Powercars - don't think they are that committed to IV fleet.
ICRs - take the remaining 59 coaches that include driving ends.

The fact it also impacts DD, probally easier to order a fleet of DMUs to serve Cork/Belfast.

I'm sure the status quo will last for a few more years, hopefully its a one off or there demise can be managed overtime rather than immediatly.

goingnowhere · 14-07-2020 1:33pm

If this is a design related issue then the class 66 maybe an issue (but the 66 has radial steering bogies so may have a different frame), the 201 was the very first SD70 UK/IE loco, but probably are based off the SD40 frame of the class 59.

The 201's are the oldest by a good margin and have had a harder life in terms of spending most of their lives running around at 70-100mph on less than great track which would expose any kind of fatigue failures.

The 071 suffered badly from bogies cracking within the first few years of service

Best outcome is bad luck, flaw in the steel which was missed.

Worst case the 071 class can do enterprise, no push pull (unless they can fit it quickly, which isn't a challenge really), same with Mk4 to Cork, not ideal but if there is nothing else thats what you have. Get the 3 111 class NIR into a common pool and off you go. Boys in ITG/RPSI will have a field day when IE come knocking to hire what they have on hand

dowlingm · 15-07-2020 1:03am

Don’t the 071s have different brakes than the 201s, not to mention quite a bit less power and a 90mph top speed which would probably make the IE/NIR CMEs wince if made to do it very often?

I would put forward again what I have in the past: an equipment swap between Enterprise and InterCity, with the DD/201 sets being put on diagrams to Limerick or Galway or maybe Waterford to eliminate the need for spare locomotives Connolly-side at virtually all times.

dowlingm · 15-07-2020 3:20am

As noted on the Rail Users Ireland bulletin board, the RAIU has listed the 224 incident as a current investigation.

“Underframe cracking of a Class 201 locomotive (No. 224), 7th July 2020”

https://www.raiu.ie/investigations/

goingnowhere · 15-07-2020 12:37pm

dowlingm wrote: »

Don’t the 071s have different brakes than the 201s, not to mention quite a bit less power and a 90mph top speed which would probably make the IE/NIR CMEs wince if made to do it very often?

I would put forward again what I have in the past: an equipment swap between Enterprise and InterCity, with the DD/201 sets being put on diagrams to Limerick or Galway or maybe Waterford to eliminate the need for spare locomotives Connolly-side at virtually all times.

Enterprise is limited to 90mph and in reality journey times are slower than when it was 071+Mk2d at 75mph...

Itssoeasy · 15-07-2020 8:52pm

dowlingm wrote: »

As noted on the Rail Users Ireland bulletin board, the RAIU has listed the 224 incident as a current investigation.

“Underframe cracking of a Class 201 locomotive (No. 224), 7th July 2020”

https://www.raiu.ie/investigations/

Is that just procedure for the RAIU to investigate any issue or does this hint that it may be a one off incident and not a cause for worry about the rest of the 201 fleet ?

Jamie2k9 · 15-07-2020 9:29pm

Itssoeasy wrote: »

Is that just procedure for the RAIU to investigate any issue or does this hint that it may be a one off incident and not a cause for worry about the rest of the 201 fleet ?

Once you notify them they decide:

What accidents do the RAIU investigate?
The RAIU will investigate all serious accidents (defined as any train collision or derailment of trains resulting in):
• The death of one person;
• Serious injuries to five or more people;
• Extensive damage to rolling stock, the infrastructure or the environment.

The RAIU may also investigate and report on accidents and incidents which under slightly different conditions might have led to serious accidents. The RAIU may not carry out a formal investigation where it is unlikely that any safety recommendations would be made, even if one or all over the above criteria are involved.

224 fits the bill of extensive damage.

dowlingm · 17-07-2020 1:23pm

Coverage in De Paper
https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/munster/arid-40016177.html

224 bent frame

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