Why are people obsessed with getting a pension

Metroid diorteM · 06-11-2019 10:32pm

Emmie Sparse Starlight wrote: »

I'm almost 76. Is that old enough? A pension was the best decision I ever made. My pension enabled a retirement with more than sufficient to enjoy life and never have to worry about money. I can buy a new car every couple of years, holiday, socialise etc to my heart's content. Things I couldn't do on the state pension.
So, ask away. What exactly do you want to know?

Happy for you man. Thanks for posting. I don’t like to be negative about this stuff either so it’s nice to hear about an alternative outcome.

06-11-2019 10:35pm

Varta wrote: »

There are people on non-contributory pension who worked and there are also people who couldn't work that receive it. But your attitude just shines through. You have no problem yourself taking a handout from the state towards your private pension.

none of the words you use seem to mean what you think they do.

06-11-2019 10:44pm

KyussB wrote: »

Don't worry, you can be assured your money will be protected and managed safely, by those who consider ethics to be a 'childish' concern.

every single post youve made in this thread has been childish. youre on some sort of strop across the site and its really not worth engaging with you in good faith because you couldnt engage any less nor with any less good faith. i have to ask what you get out of it, because you know little about pensions and care less about finding out, so why does your word count on this revive dwarf everyone elses?

KyussB · 06-11-2019 11:02pm

Before this pension thread I'd been posting mainly on the monolithic climate change thread.

Well it's good to know that you admit to engaging with me in bad faith! Perhaps you should consider if that is why discussions balloon into repetitive garbage - where something as basic as accepting ethics as a valid concern, turns into a shitshow, because posters can't engage in good faith, because they know full well that if they acknowledge ethics as a concern, that it buzz-saws through the vast majority of pension funds...

I'm the real deal, here - you see my arguments here or in any other thread - then, apart from the (what should be obvious) times I'm engaging in mild piss taking of others viwes - my arguments are my genuine views, and put in good faith.

06-11-2019 11:04pm

everyone here engaged with you im good faith- yet another example of you playing "gotcha!" at every opportunity.

listen, if thats all you want to do, will you work on the brevity? its a huge pain to see you wreck any thread you get your claws into with the typing practice zero-content raving.

KyussB · 06-11-2019 11:10pm

It takes people responding to me - to e.g. say that nobody should be concerned about pension funds investing in unethical companies/industries etc., when I point out these issues - to keep that discussion going.

It's a perfeectly valid point and discussion, too.

I would be very happy for you to put me on ignore and not respond to me, if you're tired of my posts.

06-11-2019 11:11pm

noted, i dont have ignore function on the phone alas but I'll put manual solution in place

Squozen · 07-11-2019 8:46am

BailMeOut wrote: »

governments could also setup pensions so they are taxed going in but not out! USA have something callled a 'Roth IRA' that works that way.

Australia taxes 15% on the way in, 0% on the way out. And then the state pension is means-tested.

GreeBo · 07-11-2019 9:28am

KyussB wrote: »

See everyone with a pension is expected to be a finance expert now as well. Then when *shock* obviously they're not - they're to blame individually for the pension funds mismanagement - not the people in charge of the pension fund, often raking in a nice percentage-based fee (compound interest certainly works great for the fund managers, eh...).

a) I'll again refer you to my earlier point about the issue largely being lack of financial awareness amongst the poor
b) Oh come on. What expertise is required to know that you dont keep a pension in risky funds as you get close to retirement? Seriously? Are you telling us that you didnt know that? Because if you didnt know that there is really no point in replying to you since you dont know the most basic thing about having a pension.

S.M.B. · 07-11-2019 10:01am

A lot of the default funds you get added to here in the UK via auto enrollment would auto adjust as you approach retirement age anyway. Some feel they are a little too risk adverse from the offset but you can see why they prefer this cautious approach. Not sure what type funds will be available in Ireland.

Robert_Beach · 07-11-2019 10:27am

Metroid diorteM wrote: »

My dad invested in his pension pretty much his entire working life. It just so happened that when came time to collect a few years back “oops” “didn’t you know there’s been a recession?”. Come back in 10 years or if you really want it now we’ll give you 30% the value.

I have a pension but my parents think I’m nuts after what happened to them.

I’ve little faith in governments in the decades to come sadly.

It could be fine but it could just as well be a complete waste of time. There’s no predicting with the human race.

Boom, and what you've been subject to is exactly what will be the case in a few years.

"Oh you didn't invest in the right index? Haha! What a moron, foodbank is over there"

Are we really heading towards a dog eat dog society, where the old are thrown to the wolves for making the wrong investment, sorry I meant gamble, that the government forced them into making?

As said earlier, I know old people who have been in the same boat. At least they have the state to back them up... for now.

Pensions are a scam for the ordinary worker, keep well away from them. They're only for rich and high earners to avoid the tax man.

Robert_Beach · 07-11-2019 10:28am

Listen lads if private pensions are so good, and so much better than a state safety net, then how come we don't similary have a private betting, sorry investment, led safety net for our dole? Why shouldn't I get a tax break on investments to be made for monies that could only be accessed when I'm out of work? Surprised the financial snakes haven't jumped on that

Squall Leonhart · 07-11-2019 10:33am

There's an element of talking to the wall here. It is pointless engaging with some people when they don't want to learn and flat out refuse to appraise a situation objectively.

The J Stands for Jay · 07-11-2019 10:39am

KyussB wrote: »

Sounds like another tax subsidy that we should do away with.

Do you think that all costs of employing staff should not be an allowable expense for corporation taxm

The J Stands for Jay · 07-11-2019 10:43am

Robert_Beach wrote: »

Listen lads if private pensions are so good, and so much better than a state safety net, then how come we don't similary have a private betting, sorry investment, led safety net for our dole? Why shouldn't I get a tax break on investments to be made for monies that could only be accessed when I'm out of work? Surprised the financial snakes haven't jumped on that

We do, it's called having a job and the tax breaks are called tax credits. Also, you can buy 8ncome protection to pay you if you lose your job.

The J Stands for Jay · 07-11-2019 10:43am

KyussB wrote: »

Excusively? That's some fairly extreme goalpost narrowing there.

Well, we had to fit them into the stadium somehow.

GreeBo · 07-11-2019 10:50am

Robert_Beach wrote: »

Listen lads if private pensions are so good, and so much better than a state safety net, then how come we don't similary have a private betting, sorry investment, led safety net for our dole? Why shouldn't I get a tax break on investments to be made for monies that could only be accessed when I'm out of work? Surprised the financial snakes haven't jumped on that

What "investments" are you making while out of work?
Call me crazy, but if you can afford to be making investments then perhaps you should not be receiving the dole?
You have pretty blatantly just proven that all you are after is free money that someone else provides...which is kinda ironic since a pension is free money:cool:

Robert_Beach · 07-11-2019 10:58am

GreeBo wrote: »

What "investments" are you making while out of work?
Call me crazy, but if you can afford to be making investments then perhaps you should not be receiving the dole?
You have pretty blatantly just proven that all you are after is free money that someone else provides...which is kinda ironic since a pension is free money:cool:

You've misunderstood. If private provision is all well and good, and leaving it to the markets is great, as ye are all saying, then the following stands to reason:

As a worker, instead of giving the government money to fund the dole, we should get a reduced tax and instead be directed to put that money into investments (gambling) and that money would only be accessible in the event of a person losing their job. A private dole if you will.

How come we can all agree on a safety net for workers in the that case, provided by the state, but when it comes to old people it's Thaterchism at its finest?

KyussB · 07-11-2019 11:15am

GreeBo wrote: »

a) I'll again refer you to my earlier point about the issue largely being lack of financial awareness amongst the poor
b) Oh come on. What expertise is required to know that you dont keep a pension in risky funds as you get close to retirement? Seriously? Are you telling us that you didnt know that? Because if you didnt know that there is really no point in replying to you since you dont know the most basic thing about having a pension.

You know full well I was referring to the average person - and most people are just going to let their earnings accumulate into a pension fund, and never think about it much again until retirement.

Most people are not financial experts - and if they need to be to avoid being screwed - then they should be putting their money somewhere else.

KyussB · 07-11-2019 11:21am

McGaggs wrote: »

Do you think that all costs of employing staff should not be an allowable expense for corporation taxm

That line of discussion started, from it being pointed out that employer contributions to a pension provide more of a tax break to the company than paying wages - if that is true, I'm saying it should be treated the same as salaries.

PHG · 07-11-2019 11:37am

KyussB wrote: »

You know full well I was referring to the average person - and most people are just going to let their earnings accumulate into a pension fund, and never think about it much again until retirement.

Most people are not financial experts - and if they need to be to avoid being screwed - then they should be putting their money somewhere else.

You really don't need to be a financial expert or even any bit financial savvy. If people are not willing to take 15mins to have a google about a pension and the adjustments per age then in all honesty they are an idiot! People have to take some responsibility for their life. Sick of hearing how they can't and it's everyone else's fault and being screwed.

Most companies or PRSA pensions are provided via financial advisor who can explain the issues in simple terms. All you have to do is ask them to follow up with you once a year thereafter and it is a free follow up!! Otherwise put your money somewhere else like a really sh**ty savings account from one of the major banks, good luck beating inflation there, again inflation is a simple basic term that everyone should know, and if you cannot beat that you are screwed!

If you can spend 2 hours a day on social media liking pictures of cats and random nonsense, you can google pensions and make an informed decision. Laziness is no excuse for ignorance!!!

GreeBo · 07-11-2019 11:39am

Robert_Beach wrote: »

You've misunderstood. If private provision is all well and good, and leaving it to the markets is great, as ye are all saying, then the following stands to reason:

As a worker, instead of giving the government money to fund the dole, we should get a reduced tax and instead be directed to put that money into investments (gambling) and that money would only be accessible in the event of a person losing their job. A private dole if you will.

How come we can all agree on a safety net for workers in the that case, provided by the state, but when it comes to old people it's Thaterchism at its finest?

But hang on, I thought state pensions are not funded from tax income?

In any case a pensions works because the money is locked away for decades, the model doesnt work if you can access it a year after you started because you lose your job.

GreeBo · 07-11-2019 11:40am

KyussB wrote: »

You know full well I was referring to the average person - and most people are just going to let their earnings accumulate into a pension fund, and never think about it much again until retirement.

Most people are not financial experts - and if they need to be to avoid being screwed - then they should be putting their money somewhere else.

The average person does know about pensions actually.
For those that done, you put it into a fund that manages this transition for you.

The default "lifestyle" fund moves your money into cash as you get closer to retirement.

Robert_Beach · 07-11-2019 11:54am

PHG wrote: »

You really don't need to be a financial expert or even any bit financial savvy. If people are not willing to take 15mins to have a google about a pension and the adjustments per age then in all honesty they are an idiot! People have to take some responsibility for their life. Sick of hearing how they can't and it's everyone else's fault and being screwed.

Arr yeah, our grandparents were told that Irish banks were safe and secure. Opps.

Financial "experts" are a funny breed. They collectively bring the world to the tipping point every few years, clap themselves on the back for avoiding disaster and walk off with their pockets stuffed.

Now if you'll wait here, I'm off to tell my parents that they better start watching Bloomberg news instead of RTE, subscribe to the financial times and get themselves up to speed on the wider machinations of the US Chinese trade war... if you don't, you'll be out on the streets in your old age and the government will admonish you for making stupid bets...

GreeBo · 07-11-2019 12:04pm

Time to grow my ignore list I think, no point in have a discussion with people who ignore facts in favour of conjecture.

S.M.B. · 07-11-2019 12:05pm

Squall Leonhart wrote: »

There's an element of talking to the wall here. It is pointless engaging with some people when they don't want to learn and flat out refuse to appraise a situation objectively.

^ this

KyussB · 07-11-2019 12:07pm

PHG wrote: »

You really don't need to be a financial expert or even any bit financial savvy. If people are not willing to take 15mins to have a google about a pension and the adjustments per age then in all honesty they are an idiot! People have to take some responsibility for their life. Sick of hearing how they can't and it's everyone else's fault and being screwed.

Most companies or PRSA pensions are provided via financial advisor who can explain the issues in simple terms. All you have to do is ask them to follow up with you once a year thereafter and it is a free follow up!! Otherwise put your money somewhere else like a really sh**ty savings account from one of the major banks, good luck beating inflation there, again inflation is a simple basic term that everyone should know, and if you cannot beat that you are screwed!

If you can spend 2 hours a day on social media liking pictures of cats and random nonsense, you can google pensions and make an informed decision. Laziness is no excuse for ignorance!!!

Except it's well known that a lot of the public is not financially savvy.

We don't run society and the economy based on "the stupid get what they deserve, and deserve what they get" - that would be sociopathic.

The more obvious standard is: If someone is not enough of a financial expert to know the risks and general issues involved - then they should stay away from private pensions.

KyussB · 07-11-2019 12:17pm

GreeBo wrote: »

The average person does know about pensions actually.
For those that done, you put it into a fund that manages this transition for you.

The default "lifestyle" fund moves your money into cash as you get closer to retirement.

Most people are about to get auto-enrolled into one without anyone ever checking if the people being auto-enrolled have even the slightest clue about pensions.

Most people don't even know what they are investing in. Won't have a clue about the ethical issues involved with who they're investing in.

The average person is not a financial expert, and is not smart enough to even know the full range of risks or issues.

Most people won't even be smart enough, to see simple things like how percentage-fee based funds, screw people over through compound-fee-interest over time...

Any idiot can know what a pension is - that's a very low bar you set...

KyussB · 07-11-2019 12:20pm

GreeBo wrote: »

Time to grow my ignore list I think, no point in have a discussion with people who ignore facts in favour of conjecture.

It's funny how you're like the third poster to make a petulant show of putting people on your ignore list - and I bet you'll soon be the third person to, shortly after., demonstrate that this was rhetorical bullshit, when you can't help replying again.

Nobody really believes you, and others, are suddenly going to stop frsntically pushing bsck against the very wide variety of criticisms of such pensions, and the auto-enrolment...

Brian201888 · 07-11-2019 12:24pm

KyussB what do you suggest people do to secure their future given how hard it is to find an ethical pension as you put it?

Varta · 07-11-2019 12:31pm

The simple and fair way for the state to support private pensions is to have contributions paid from net salary and apply a zero tax rate on pension drawdowns. Of course, this would have the effect of halving the the income of pension fund companies, so it's never going to happen.

KyussB · 07-11-2019 12:32pm

Brian201888 wrote: »

KyussB what do you suggest people do to secure their future given how hard it is to find an ethical pension as you put it?

Be very politically active in ensuring the government provides strong social safety nets - be aware of how the current main parties are captured by financial interests, and lobby against that - in the case of pensions, reform how the public pensions are structured, so that the finance industry and free-market-fetishist government can't pretend that there is 'pensions crisis' in public pensions - as that is an artificial crisis, designed to strip that particular social safety net.

Join unions and lobby for better wages - you secure your retirement first and foremost, by bolstering your wages - people are getting less and less of a share of company profits as time goes by (and of societies overall gains in wealth), that has to be reversed.

In general, we need solutions that don't rely on "money making money" - i.e. money passively growing in wealth, without a person putting in any effort - because that's pretty much the root of all of the economic/social/political problems we're seeing in recent decades, and those type of gains are supposed to be taxed to death - but instead they are being subsidized, which has to end.

In short, people should have enough of a social safety net even if they have no money - and people should earn enough money (the economy can definitely support it...) so that, inflation/depreciation or not, their accumulated earnings will last through their retirement - with the social safety net to fall back on.

S.M.B. · 07-11-2019 12:35pm

KyussB wrote: »

Most people are about to get auto-enrolled into one without anyone ever checking if the people being auto-enrolled have even the slightest clue about pensions.

Most people don't even know what they are investing in. Won't have a clue about the ethical issues involved with who they're investing in.

The average person is not a financial expert, and is not smart enough to even know the full range of risks or issues.

Most people won't even be smart enough, to see simple things like how percentage-fee based funds, screw people over through compound-fee-interest over time...

Any idiot can know what a pension is - that's a very low bar you set...

Any time I've been auto enrolled I've been given plenty of information explaining how it all works,both from my employer and my pension provider.

I think you make valid points when it comes to how ethical these funds are but I do think the industry is going to move to a place where this is less of an issue going forward. I think it will have to but maybe I'm being naive.

And I don't see how simple things like percentage fee based funds screw people over in the long run. Yes, a savvy investor will want to keep fees as low as possible but it's no reason to avoid this policy.

KyussB · 07-11-2019 12:41pm

S.M.B. wrote: »

Any time I've been auto enrolled I've been given plenty of information explaining how it all works,both from my employer and my pension provider.

I think you make valid points when it comes to how ethical these funds are but I do think the industry is going to move to a place where this is less of an issue going forward. I think it will have to but maybe I'm being naive.

And I don't see how simple things like percentage fee based funds screw people over in the long run. Yes, a savvy investor will want to keep fees as low as possible but it's no reason to avoid this policy.

Regardless, the public not being financially savvy is still a known issue - and it's not an issue we can expect to resolve.

I think that it's possible to have truly ethical pension funds (despite the ones being marketed as so today, having a lot of unethical companies in the portfolio) - but it's important to remember, that they won't have the same rate of return, and will be more risky - because unethical companies have an inherent competitive advantage, in being able to externalize costs to society and the environment, access cheaper/more-exploitative forms of labour etc. etc..

So there's still a role for (reformed, ethical) private pensions, and I'd still like to see that encouraged, as investment is still a good/positive thing in the economy - and the risks involved do deserve rewards.

The problem with percentage based is, is that it's compound interest working against your favour, over time - imagine how gigantic that accumulated fee would be, over 40-50 years?

GreeBo · 07-11-2019 12:45pm

Varta wrote: »

The simple and fair way for the state to support private pensions is to have contributions paid from net salary and apply a zero tax rate on pension drawdowns. Of course, this would have the effect of halving the the income of pension fund companies, so it's never going to happen.

and thus halving the value of my pension and the tax that I pay on it?

Cue me with my hand out needing money from the state in my retirement...so what has that achieved?

Dodge · 07-11-2019 12:47pm

KyussB wrote: »

So there's still a role for (reformed, ethical) private pensions,

There we have it then.

Your argument is about types of pension rather than the idea that people should save for their retirement.

Which is good, because it really can’t be stressed enough that people need to save for their retirement

KyussB · 07-11-2019 12:54pm

Dodge wrote: »

There we have it then.

Your argument is about types of pension rather than the idea that people should save for their retirement.

Which is good, because it really can’t be stressed enough that people need to save for their retirement

Of course

I definitely support people saving for their retirement, even risking some of it in investments if they're ok with that risk and are responsible about it.

I just have major major concerns with private pensions in their current, predominant, form (and auto-enrolment particularly) - even the supposed 'ethical' ones have a ton of unethical investments - and all of those concerns tie into the bigger concerns/issues I've learned about, from studying/learning-about economic issues over the last decade.

I need to prepare for my own retirement as well after all (I'll be ok whatever way I do it, as my earnings are alright) - but because of what I know, and the issues that lets me easily see, it makes figuring out what to do about stuff like pensions and all, rather complicated - making it seem very hard to manage without compromising my principles, or putting myself at risk with the (largely fairly exploitative) finance industry.

S.M.B. · 07-11-2019 12:55pm

KyussB wrote: »

The problem with percentage based is, is that it's compound interest working against your favour, over time - imagine how gigantic that accumulated fee would be, over 40-50 years?

The fees can be crazy but I don't see it as any more of an outrage as a bank having a savings account interest rate set a half a percent below market rates. I know my would have a reasonable amount of money sitting in bank accounts for years. Personal Finances should be part of our formal education as its not just pension education that's lacking.

I know plenty of high earners here who are more than happy to have their pension pot sitting with providers with astronomically high percentage fees.

S.M.B. · 07-11-2019 1:04pm

Varta wrote: »

The simple and fair way for the state to support private pensions is to have contributions paid from net salary and apply a zero tax rate on pension drawdowns. Of course, this would have the effect of halving the the income of pension fund companies, so it's never going to happen.

The UK has an alternative wrapper which while a bit of a mess right now offers something more akin to this.

Pay a max of £4000 a year into a Lifetime ISA, get a 25% bonus from the government regardless of income tax rate and receive tax free gains from either interest on cash or stocks and shares investment. You can withdraw from the account to either buy your first house or after turning 60.

Now there is an awful lot wrong with this offering but it is a product that caters for retirement saving.

Varta · 07-11-2019 1:04pm

GreeBo wrote: »

and thus halving the value of my pension and the tax that I pay on it?

Cue me with my hand out needing money from the state in my retirement...so what has that achieved?

Well, if you were correct, and you are not, what would be the difference between putting your hand out after retirement and putting it out before retirement (getting half your pension contributions paid by the state)?

Your pension wouldn't halve if you put more (of your own) money into it.

Why do you always refer to getting the state pension as putting your hand out? Surely if you can afford to pay into a private pension then you are paying a sufficient amount into social welfare to get an earned state pension when you retire.

And as to "what has that achieved?" it has ensured that the state gets use the tax that is due from you to run society.

KyussB · 07-11-2019 1:05pm

S.M.B. wrote: »

The fees can be crazy but I don't see it as any more of an outrage as a bank having a savings account interest rate set a half a percent below market rates. I know my would have a reasonable amount of money sitting in bank accounts for years. Personal Finances should be part of our formal education as its not just pension education that's lacking.

I know plenty of high earners here who are more than happy to have their pension pot sitting with providers with astronomically high percentage fees.

Well, that's a gigantically big red flag there, I'm afraid

those fees are guaranteed earnings for the fee manager (drawn down immediately, not subject to risk of market crashes), which get amplified by investing more riskily, and thus create perverse incentives which encourage risky investments - then when the market does crash, the fund manager doesn't care because they've already got their cut of the money - 'IBGYBG' - "I'll Be Gone, You'll Be Gone".

This is why it helps to have a healthy (and well earned, for the finance industry) dose of cynicism. Even smart people, high earners, get lulled into accepting shit deals like that. The industry thrives on information asymmetry, and on people not being informed enough to spot stuff like this (and in this post I didn't even get into the astronomically high cost of the compounded fees, there, over time - which will decimate the gains of such funds).

AndrewJRenko · 07-11-2019 1:11pm

Varta wrote: »

The simple and fair way for the state to support private pensions is to have contributions paid from net salary and apply a zero tax rate on pension drawdowns. Of course, this would have the effect of halving the the income of pension fund companies, so it's never going to happen.

It raises a big red flag when an entire industry is based around the benefit of tax relief. Does the industry really add much value beyond this?

Robert_Beach wrote: »

Arr yeah, our grandparents were told that Irish banks were safe and secure. Opps.

Just ICYMI - Irish banks are/were safe and secure. No deposit holder lost their deposits in Irish banks.

Investors in Irish banks certainly lost a lot of value of their share-holdings, but that's a different question.

GreeBo · 07-11-2019 1:18pm

Varta wrote: »

Well, if you were correct, and you are not, what would be the difference between putting your hand out after retirement and putting it out before retirement (getting half your pension contributions paid by the state)?

Tax benefit on the contributions leads to a much larger fund at the end, which I will continue to pay tax on.
If you cant see that this is a larger sum of money then I cant help you any further.

Varta wrote: »

Your pension wouldn't halve if you put more (of your own) money into it.

The equivalent argument to that is, you wouldnt need a state pension if you earned more money.

Varta wrote: »

Why do you always refer to getting the state pension as putting your hand out? Surely if you can afford to pay into a private pension then you are paying a sufficient amount into social welfare to get an earned state pension when you retire.

Why do you always refer to pension tax relief as putting your hand out?

Varta wrote: »

And as to "what has that achieved?" it has ensured that the state gets use the tax that is due from you to run society.

Which it does when they tax the money I take out of my pension.
For FAR longer and for MORE money than they would if I had my own savings and no private pension.

Robert_Beach · 07-11-2019 1:20pm

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Just ICYMI - Irish banks are/were safe and secure. No deposit holder lost their deposits in Irish banks.

Investors in Irish banks certainly lost a lot of value of their share-holdings, but that's a different question.

No, it's not. That's what I meant. Standard safe option given to old people was put the investments in Irish banks. If you were around in the post-2008 Ireland, you couldn't miss all the pensioners who lost a substantial chunk, if not everything, in them.

AndrewJRenko · 07-11-2019 1:44pm

Robert_Beach wrote: »

No, it's not. That's what I meant. Standard safe option given to old people was put the investments in Irish banks. If you were around in the post-2008 Ireland, you couldn't miss all the pensioners who lost a substantial chunk, if not everything, in them.

Who gave this advice? Anyone who knows anything about market investments would advise people to have a portfolio of shares, with geographic and sectoral diversification to balance risk and reward.

Who are these advisors who advised putting all your eggs in any one basket - whether Irish banks or dot com or whatever?

Robert_Beach · 07-11-2019 2:22pm

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Who gave this advice? Anyone who knows anything about market investments would advise people to have a portfolio of shares, with geographic and sectoral diversification to balance risk and reward.

Who are these advisors who advised putting all your eggs in any one basket - whether Irish banks or dot com or whatever?

You seem to be mistaking me for a pensioner in post-2008 Ireland.

If you're looking for a specific list of advisors who said this, you'll be left wanting.

The fact is that lots and lots of pensioners lost big in them. What age are you? I ask because it was common to see and hear of this back then, but if you're too young then that's excusable.

And once again, I'm loving the blame being put on pensioners for market loses! This thread is nothing if not constant.

Varta · 07-11-2019 2:25pm

GreeBo wrote: »

Tax benefit on the contributions leads to a much larger fund at the end, which I will continue to pay tax on.
If you cant see that this is a larger sum of money then I cant help you any further.

I'm not looking for your help. You will pay less tax on your pension than you will get back on your contributions.

The equivalent argument to that is, you wouldnt need a state pension if you earned more money.
That is not an argument. You have earned your state penaion by making contributions.

Why do you always refer to pension tax relief as putting your hand out?

Why do you refer to people on state pension as putting their hand out?

Which it does when they tax the money I take out of my pension.
For FAR longer and for MORE money than they would if I had my own savings and no private pension.

Less tax than you got back on your contributions. Plus, all investment returns are taxed but you don't have to pay those investment return taxes

I get that you want a better income in retirement than the state provides , so do I and most other people. But you want other people to pay for your extra income in the form of a 'tax relief'. If you owe me €20 and I say "Greebo, just give me €10 and put the rest into your private pension", then I have just contributed €10 into your private pension. It is no different when the state does it. All tax relief is wrong. It is a scam used by politicians to win elections.

celtic_oz · 07-11-2019 2:46pm

Varta wrote: »

All tax relief is wrong. It is a scam used by politicians to win elections.

Sounds like someone who doesn't pay the higher rate .. You're welcome to your opinion, but I'm glad there is some way to pay less than the 50 odd percent which in my mind is outrageous.

Varta · 07-11-2019 3:01pm

celtic_oz wrote: »

Sounds like someone who doesn't pay the higher rate .. You're welcome to your opinion, but I'm glad there is some way to pay less than the 50 odd percent which in my mind is outrageous.

I paid the higher rate for most of my life. I believe in paying taxes to have a civilised, caring society in which to live and raise my family. I know we could get much better value for money for our taxes and that there is a lot of abuse such as in the welfare system, nevertheless, you will see that we do get a surprising return on our taxes when you actually write it all down.

AndrewJRenko · 07-11-2019 3:53pm

Robert_Beach wrote: »

You seem to be mistaking me for a pensioner in post-2008 Ireland.

If you're looking for a specific list of advisors who said this, you'll be left wanting.

The fact is that lots and lots of pensioners lost big in them. What age are you? I ask because it was common to see and hear of this back then, but if you're too young then that's excusable.

And once again, I'm loving the blame being put on pensioners for market loses! This thread is nothing if not constant.

I've heard it said before all right, hence my question about who was saying it - was it from proper, qualified, regulated investment advisers (AA or QFA or whatever) or was it from your friendly accountant down the golf club who really didn't know his ass from his elbow.

Diversification is the basis for managing risk in any portfolio. To be honest, a lot of those who went for these kinds of investments were being greedy, like the bould Sean Quinn. They saw the strong growth in Irish financials, and they went chasing it at the wrong time for the market. It's hard to have too much sympathy.

Why are people obsessed with getting a pension

Comments