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trying to trace grand parents and extended family

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  • 21-11-2020 10:38am
    #1
    Faolchu
    Registered Users Posts: 1,740 ✭✭✭


    Guys


    I'm looking to try and find info on my grandmother's family and subsequently my father's family.



    Her name was Patricia Lawless, born in 1913 and died 1957, she lived on Carnlough Road in Cabra around the time of her death. My Father's name was Brendan and he was born in 1932.



    Patricia was a "spinster" according to her death registration info, but the truth is that she had a son out of wedlock, my father. He was raised by his Grandparents Lawrence and Christine/Christina and knew Patricia as his sister. from speaking to some of the folks on the genealogy forum here that was a common practice, given what we know now about mother and baby homes and the laundries etc. who can blame them for their deception. anyway my father found out the truth 20+ years after her death who she was.



    Patricia had a brother called Thomas/Tommie in her memorial in the paper he is refereed to as "Little Tommie" by her unnamed sister. her obituary mentions brothers and sisters so I'm assuming it was a large enough family as was the norm in good catholic Ireland.



    So really all I'm asking is this:


    is there anyone out there that might have an older relative with the surname/maiden name Lawless who might have lived on Carnlough Road in the late 50's and probably well in to the 60s?



    Did/Do you have an uncle/granduncle by the name Thomas/Tommie or her that name and Patricia mentioned growing up? Given my father was born in 1932 its most likely to be a grandparent or something and they may have mentioned it.



    are any of your ancestors with that name Lawless buried in a small grave yard in Finglas, its called St Canice's and its across the road from Powercity more or less under the pedestrian bridge beside a few small cottages.


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    #2
    spurious
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 27,111 CMod ✭✭✭✭spurious


    From what I can see on irishgenealogy.ie , Lawrence died in 1932 and Christina in 1955?
    Does that fit in with your information?

    Patricia had an older sister Christina, born August 1907, also Anne, born August 1910.
    also a brother Laurence Lawless born September 1897. There may have been others.
    If Thomas was born 1919 or later, his record is not online yet.

    **edit
    According to the census of 1911, there was also an Edward and a John among the children.
    http://census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Dublin/Mountjoy/Rutland_Street__Upper/23898/


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    #3
    Faolchu
    Registered Users Posts: 1,740 ✭✭✭Faolchu


    spurious wrote: »
    From what I can see on irishgenealogy.ie , Lawrence died in 1932 and Christina in 1955?
    Does that fit in with your information?

    Patricia had an older sister Christina, born August 1907, also Anne, born August 1910.
    also a brother Laurence Lawless born September 1897. There may have been others.
    If Thomas was born 1919 or later, his record is not online yet.

    **edit
    According to the census of 1911, there was also an Edward and a John among the children.
    http://census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Dublin/Mountjoy/Rutland_Street__Upper/23898/


    I've literally started searching since last night so have only managed to find info on Patricia thanks to one of the Mods in Genealogy.



    I'm going to dig a little deeper into Laurence and Christina as I know her maiden name was Byrne because of the info on Patricia's Birth record. if i can tie that info to the Christina you mention I may be on the right path. coincidence is if this is the right person then Laurence died the same year Patricia gave birth to my father. Maybe the "shame" killed him ;0)



    I was at Laurence's grave about 3 - 4 years ago when i first started looking and I may have taken a photography, if not I'm back in dublin in about 10 days and will be heading by that graveyard anyway so will stop in and get some photos of his but also the others around it, from what I recall there are a number with the name Lawless on it.



    given Patricia's memorial mentions "little Tommie" its probably safe to assume he was born after Patricia who was born in 1913/14. so neither will be in the census. bloody stupid that almost 100 years later we cant get access to this information.


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    #4
    spurious
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 27,111 CMod ✭✭✭✭spurious


    Once the GRO opens again, you can go into Werburgh Street and check the big index books. Wouldn't take long.

    Laurence and Christina were married 24th July 1897 in the Pro-Cathedral .

    3rd from the bottom https://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/display-pdf.jsp?pdfName=st.mary%27s-pro-cath_mf_1862-1881_ma_0441


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    #5
    Faolchu
    Registered Users Posts: 1,740 ✭✭✭Faolchu


    spurious wrote: »

    Laurence and Christina were married 24th July 1897 in the Pro-Cathedral .

    3rd from the bottom https://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/display-pdf.jsp?pdfName=st.mary%27s-pro-cath_mf_1862-1881_ma_0441


    I really need to learn how to search this stuff because I'm coming up with dead ends all the time


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    #6
    Faolchu
    Registered Users Posts: 1,740 ✭✭✭Faolchu


    spurious wrote: »
    From what I can see on irishgenealogy.ie , Lawrence died in 1932 and Christina in 1955?
    Does that fit in with your information?


    just searched the Dublin City Grave registry and found Patrica, Lawrence and Christina.



    it doesn't link to images actual of the internment records but does show Lawrence died age 57, Christina age 75. in a strange coincidence my own mother has outlived her husband also (my mother is in her early 80s, my father died in his late 60s)


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    #7
    spurious
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 27,111 CMod ✭✭✭✭spurious


    Faolchu wrote:
    I really need to learn how to search this stuff because I'm coming up with dead ends all the time


    On the irish genealogy site, there is a church records part and that is where the Pro Cathedral record is. It just backs up the civil record of the marriage which is available in the Civil records section.

    If you like, I can write you an account explaining where and how I found the info so you can look further yourself. PM me if you are interested in that.


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    #8
    Michellenman
    Registered Users Posts: 11,195 ✭✭✭✭Michellenman


    There’s a very active Facebook private group called ‘Dublin 7 Community’ and there’s lots of people who live/lived in Cabra who post frequently on it. If you were willing to share the details there you might have a chance of people seeing it who knew Patricia. I live in Cabra (I’m just a blow in apparently) but a lot of my neighbours were born and reared in the houses they still live in now and they’d be similar ages to your dad so the name might ring a bell. Best of luck.


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    #9
    Faolchu
    Registered Users Posts: 1,740 ✭✭✭Faolchu


    spurious wrote: »

    If you like, I can write you an account explaining where and how I found the info so you can look further yourself. PM me if you are interested in that.

    that would be great. just a couple of sentences or what ever on the process you used. I've found more information this weekend than in the last 4 years. if its all valid I've been able to identify my great great grandparents from the marriage information.


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    #10
    Faolchu
    Registered Users Posts: 1,740 ✭✭✭Faolchu


    Michellenman wrote: »
    There’s a very active Facebook private group called ‘Dublin 7 Community’ and there’s lots of people who live/lived in Cabra who post frequently on it.

    I'll give that a look, inwas looking at other FB groups but when I saw some the garbage being posted just left. but this sounds like it may be s place to start. I know what house she lived in so that will help and I'm going to swing by next week just to see it.


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    #11
    spurious
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 27,111 CMod ✭✭✭✭spurious


    Faolchu wrote: »
    that would be great. just a couple of sentences or what ever on the process you used. I've found more information this weekend than in the last 4 years. if its all valid I've been able to identify my great great grandparents from the marriage information.

    Apologies if this is too basic, but here we go.

    You had a known ancestor and a known year of birth (Patricia Lawless 1913 in Dublin). This can be from family knowledge or you might have found your family on the 1911 or 1901 census.

    Knowing that, we go to irishgenealogy.ie which is a government site covering births (1864 to one hundred years ago), marriages (1864 for Catholics/1845 for Church of Ireland to seventy five years ago) and deaths (1864 to fifty years ago). Generally speaking, most records are there, though there are a few missing pages and some of the compliance in early years was not great. We must always allow for alternate spellings in surnames.

    We find Patricia's birth on 16 March 1913, with parents Lawrence Lawless and Christina Byrne, living in Lr. Gardiner St. where she was born.
    With that info, we can do two things...
    • look for other children with the same parents (after 1900 if you search for Lawless Byrne in the search box you will get children with parents of those names)
    • look for the marriage of her parents

    Finding that her parents married in 1897, the civil records gives the names of the fathers of the bridge and groom, but the church records (also on irishgenealogy for some parishes) show both parents names. So now, you have gone back another generation.

    Knowing the date of the marriage, we can then search for children from 1897 to 1913. I would never rule out a child in the year or two preceding marriage, because, you know, these things happen and always have.

    We can also check the census, particularly the 1911 one which tells us they had (in 1911) had 6 children but only four were still living.
    You may want to look through the Lawless deaths for young children. Sometimes, if a child died very young, the parents registered the death only, not the birth. An added complication for births in Dublin is the fact that the Rotunda seemed to register births very quickly, often before the child had a name. Those children would appear under 'unknown' plus their surname on a search. To illustrate this, none of the children on this page
    https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1898/02096/1798826.pdf were registered with a first name - all were born in the Rotunda.

    Here are Lawrence and Christina on the 1901 census (Ages Lawrence 25, Christina 20)
    http://census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai003761205/
    (see the spelling of his name - you have to allow for things like that in a not very literate population). Within the census return we also get information regarding the house they were living in, which is described as 1st class (!) based on the building materials, roof, windows etc,., but on further examination, seems to be a Georgian house with 10 families living in it.
    http://census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai003761205/
    The Lawless family (Dwelling 6.5, room 5 in building 6 - the 6 does not always mean number 6 on the door, but the 6th building counted) with only 3 people in one room are probably the least crowded.

    In the 1911 census, Laurence is given as aged 30 and Christina 29

    http://census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Dublin/Mountjoy/Rutland_Street__Upper/23898/
    They are now living in a house with 7 families in it and there are 6 of them in one room.
    http://census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai000062109/

    The census will also give us ages for the parents. Now, I wouldn't take these as gospel, but it gives a rough idea when they were born. We already know the parents of Lawrence and Christina from the parish marriage record, so we can look for their births on irishgenealogy (if after 1864) or their baptisms in the parish, if we know they were in Dublin at that time.

    We know Lawrence's parents are Michael Lawless and Anne McGuirk and Christina's parents are Edward Byrne and Mary O'Neil.

    Searching for marriages, we find Michael and Anne marrying in Finglas in 1865 (which would fit in with your burial info). The marriage record gives his father as John and hers as Thomas (deceased).
    https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details-civil/ed6fb13064388
    So, next step is you look for his father's death (or grave) and see does it mention the name of his mother. Or look for Lawrence's birth in Finglas as it was probably after 1865.

    I'm rambling. Anyway, that is how you find one record from another. Both irishgenealogy.ie and census.nationalarchives.ie are free to use. Another useful free site is registers.nli.ie (parish registers - only RC at the moment, but others coming).""Edit. Nice clear registers from Finglas parish on registers.nli.ie **

    Paid sites take a lot of the hard work out of searching as they have indexed many records, and some sites have records like workhouse records, police arrest books etc., which let's face it, most families have had a brush with at some stage.

    I hope that helps.


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    #12
    Victor
    Registered Users Posts: 78,245 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    Faolchu wrote: »
    Patricia had a brother called Thomas/Tommie in her memorial in the paper he is refereed to as "Little Tommie" by her unnamed sister.
    I don't know, but is there a possibility that Thomas died young or very young?


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    #13
    spurious
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 27,111 CMod ✭✭✭✭spurious


    Victor wrote: »
    I don't know, but is there a possibility that Thomas died young or very young?

    He could easily have. A lot of genealogy is plodding through thousands of records, looking for a relevant one. Ideal lockdown pastime.


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    #14
    Faolchu
    Registered Users Posts: 1,740 ✭✭✭Faolchu


    spurious wrote: »
    Apologies if this is too basic, but here we go.




    no that's perfect, a nice simple process. I'll make a copy and use that to trace back as far as i can on both sides of the family now just to have a full picture. time to play the Buffy theme tune and head to the graveyard to get the info from known graves on my mothers side so i can do both families.


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    #15
    Faolchu
    Registered Users Posts: 1,740 ✭✭✭Faolchu


    Victor wrote: »
    I don't know, but is there a possibility that Thomas died young or very young?


    her anniversary notice says "sadly missed bu Little Tommie and children"
    So I'm reading that as Thomas misses her and either her children meaning I have uncles/aunts I dont know of or else its Thomas' kids.



    Lawless, Patricia - anniversary notice Evening Herald 1958.png


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    #16
    spurious
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 27,111 CMod ✭✭✭✭spurious


    That looks like 'Lillie, Thomas and children'.

    I wonder had she a sister or niece called Elizabeth (Lily).


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    #17
    spurious
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 27,111 CMod ✭✭✭✭spurious


    There is another 'In Memoriam' notice in the 'Evening Herald' from 1961 that mentions a 'John, Nancy and Lillie'.
    same thing for 1960. Have found notices up to 1963.

    There are also some notices up as far as 1963 from 'John, Nancy and Lillie' for Edward Lawless, North Strand, died 1958.
    The same Edward has memorial notices in 1963 from 'daughter Evelyn, Michael and grandchildren'; 'sons Gerard, Freddy and Kevin'; 'son Eddie, daughter in law Maureen and grandchildren'; 'daughter Imelda, son in law Sean' - so, there are plenty family to be searching out.


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