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What defines an 'Irishman' in context of upcoming centenaries

124

Comments

  • #152
    InTheTrees
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,900 ✭✭✭InTheTrees


    deirdremf wrote: »
    In other words, did they isolate themselves from the general population, or did they integrate? What part did their separate schools play in all of this?

    Personally I could care less about religion but back in the early 60's, public education in Ireland was controlled by the catholic church and the only alternative was a protestant school, which had to follow an english curriculum, I suppose to avoid the Catholicism.

    So protestant kids were being educated and trained to work in England. It was incredibly exclusionary and divisive. No Irish language classes meant exclusion from government jobs too.

    Seriously i grew up feeling it was a kind of retaliation against protestants but I also understand why.


  • #153
    Wild Bill
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,129 ✭✭✭Wild Bill


    P. Breathnach wrote: »

    I really dislike any definition of Irishness that involves any mention of Britain or England.

    OK. I'm trying to temper my "keyboard warrior" tendency - but I'm soooo easily provoked. :o

    You are correct. I should just say a core value is an independent Ireland. Period.

    It's just that there are not many people on the island who wish we were part of anywhere else - other than Britain.


  • #154
    Bannasidhe
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    P. Breathnach wrote: »
    Why the bit I have bolded? Are we not also politically independent of Sri Lanka and Peru?

    I really dislike any definition of Irishness that involves any mention of Britain or England.

    [And, by the way, how do we define an Irishwoman? Or is that unimportant?]

    As an Irishwoman I do not define myself by any relationship my country may or may not have with any other country.

    Speaking for myself, I define myself as Irish because I was born in Ireland of Irish parents, I was raised in Ireland and my cultural touchstones are Irish.
    Other's may have different personal definitions which are equally valid...


  • #155
    Wild Bill
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,129 ✭✭✭Wild Bill


    InTheTrees wrote: »
    in the early 60's..... the only alternative was a protestant school, which had to follow an english curriculum, I suppose to avoid the Catholicism.

    So protestant kids were being educated and trained to work in England. It was incredibly exclusionary and divisive. No Irish language classes meant exclusion from government jobs too.

    Seriously i grew up feeling it was a kind of retaliation against protestants but I also understand why.

    Never realised that (bits in bold). When did it change?


  • #156
    dubhthach
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭dubhthach


    Wild Bill wrote: »
    Now that birthright is abolished there is no better measure than holding that value - citizenship has serious issues since then, as discussed above.

    Birthright isn't fully abolished. It applies in the following two cases:
    • One of the two parents is a pre-existing Irish citizen
    • The Parents (who are both foreign nationals) have been living in Ireland legally for at least 3 years.

    My own son qualifies as a citizen via birthrate via the first of two clauses above (his mother only received her citizenship last year after 10 years here).

    As most of our immigrant population is form other EU states it's a bit moot. However where issues can arise is where immigrants are from outside the EU. The example of the Sir Lankan boy above. If he doesn't receive Irish citizenship before he goes to university he will be charged as a non-EU citizen (full fees) even though he has lived in Ireland since 3months and been fully educated in Irish system. Plenty of cases around of teenagers been forced to not go to college because as non-EU citizens they can't afford it -- even though they've been in Ireland 5-8years (completed secondary).

    Thankfully there has been a major speed up in the processing of citizenship applications. The crowd running the process were worse then those arranging appointments in the Health service.


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  • #157
    Wild Bill
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,129 ✭✭✭Wild Bill


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    As an Irishwoman I do not define myself by any relationship my country may or may not have with any other country.

    If your country is part of another country it is a province, not a country. So being Irish in that context means no more than being a Carlow woman as distinct from a Wexford woman.

    You have no legal identity separate from the larger unit. Also I find if difficult to fit my Nigerian Muslim pal into your definition - even though he is now a proud citizen.

    (in his case it took 17 years!)


  • #158
    Wild Bill
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,129 ✭✭✭Wild Bill


    dubhthach wrote: »
    Birthright isn't fully abolished.

    OK. But we had the American system where if you were born on the island you were a citizen by right.


  • #159
    dubhthach
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭dubhthach


    Wild Bill wrote: »
    OK. But we had the American system where if you were born on the island you were a citizen by right.

    Indeed or as it's known in Latin as: Jus soli (right of soil), the other means is of course Jus sanguinis (right of blood).

    At the moment our system is kinda a hybrid. If you are born in Ireland and have one Irish parent you get citizenship (Jus sanguinis), however if your parents are legal residents (and non-citizens) of at least 3 years then you are also guaranteed citizenship (Jus soli). Of course I known of at least one filipino family where child was born 2 and half years after parents arrived here (both are legal citzenships). Under the system doesn't get Irish citizenship. Which tbh I think is unfair especially as the parents are both Irish taxpayers. However more then likely if they apply for citizenship they will all be naturalised at the same time.

    This of course is ignoring that if you are born in a foreign country you are also guaranteed citizenship if you have at least one Irish grandparent.


  • #160
    Bannasidhe
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    Wild Bill wrote: »
    If your country is part of another country it is a province, not a country. So being Irish in that context means no more than being a Carlow woman as distinct from a Wexford woman.

    You have no legal identity separate from the larger unit. Also I find if difficult to fit my Nigerian Muslim pal into your definition - even though he is now a proud citizen.

    (in his case it took 17 years!)



    Were we still part of the Union I would still be a Corkwoman (county), a Munsterwoman (province) and an Irish woman (country). I fail to see the issue.
    Are my friends in Inverness not still Scottish even though Scotland is still part of the Union (for now)? :confused:.

    As I said, different people have different definitions - all of them valid. Your Nigerian, Muslim friend is Irish because he made the decision to swear fidelity to the Irish State.

    My problem is that we seek a simple and absolutist definition of what it means to be Irish when we live in a multi-ethnic, multi-denominational society.


  • #161
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    Wild Bill wrote: »
    Never realised that (bits in bold). When did it change?

    Actually, thats quite legal, there is no law saying what the standards are as I understand it.

    You could follow A levels or the french Bac .

    The value of the Leaving Cert is as an entry qualification for 3rd level or a trade or profession.

    You also had a matriculation entry to the universities by their own exams as an alternative and separate civil service entry exams in irish, english and maths seperate from the leaving. My mother tutored people in Irish for them.


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  • #162
    Wild Bill
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,129 ✭✭✭Wild Bill


    CDfm wrote: »
    Actually, thats quite legal, there is no law saying what the standards are as I understand it.

    You could follow A levels or the french Bac .

    The value of the Leaving Cert is as an entry qualification for 3rd level or a trade or profession.

    You also had a matriculation entry to the universities by their own exams as an alternative and separate civil service entry exams in irish, english and maths seperate from the leaving. My mother tutored people in Irish for them.

    Maybe the practice changed; Newpark school in Blackrock has the same curriculum as any other local secondary afaik.


  • #163
    Wild Bill
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,129 ✭✭✭Wild Bill


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    Were we still part of the Union I would still be a Corkwoman (county), a Munsterwoman (province) and an Irish woman (country). I fail to see the issue.
    Are my friends in Inverness not still Scottish even though Scotland is still part of the Union (for now)? :confused:.

    As I said, different people have different definitions - all of them valid. Your Nigerian, Muslim friend is Irish because he made the decision to swear fidelity to the Irish State.

    My problem is that we seek a simple and absolutist definition of what it means to be Irish when we live in a multi-ethnic, multi-denominational society.

    Bar in some British-originated sports Scotland isn't regarded as a country; the Olympics for example.

    It isn't represented in international events such as the European song contest (or Miss World :D)

    It has no independent foreign policy and no embassies abroad.

    It isn't a full country in the sovereign international sense.

    And people from Scotland who accept that are British first and Aberdonians/Scots second.

    Not a concept of nationhood, or of country the acceptance of which, I'd regard as remotely compatible with being Irish.


  • #164
    LordSutch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,078 ✭✭✭✭LordSutch


    P. Breathnach wrote: »
    I really dislike any definition of Irishness that involves any mention of Britain or England.

    Now I find this really puzzling, why wouldn't some of us have connections with the island next door :confused:

    Many of our accestors came from Britain, (St Patrick included). There are many shades of Irishness, including Irishness in a British context.


  • #165
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    Wild Bill wrote: »

    Not a concept of nationhood, or of country the acceptance of which, I'd regard as remotely compatible with being Irish.

    It has football teams.

    As far as I know has a separate criminal law where the unique Scottish verdict "not proven" existed/s as an alternative to guilty or not guilty.

    It has a Scottish Assembly.

    And I was in Germany a few years back. Hamburg is still very much a City state and part of the German "Federation".

    The Scottish Voters kept Labour in Power in the UK and both Blair and Brown are Scottish.

    Scotland has a fairly strong identity.


  • #166
    KeithAFC
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,239 ✭✭✭✭KeithAFC


    Happy Monday wrote: »
    People in England - I have lived there too - consider people on this island to be Irish and British as well.

    I have to come across one Ulster Protestant yet who considers himself Irish and not British. They see themselves as Irish and British or Northern Irish and British but never as just Irish.
    There is a reason for that though. I live amongst them and they all come from the Ulster Scots background. They are more Scottish than Irish. I don't consider myself Irish.


  • #167
    P. Breathnach
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    KeithAFC wrote: »
    There is a reason for that though. I live amongst them and they all come from the Ulster Scots background. They are more Scottish than Irish. I don't consider myself Irish.
    I accept what you say about the Ulster-Scots tradition as being generally true (there are exceptions to every generalisation), but there are more strands of Protestantism in NI than Ulster-Scots.


  • #168
    KeithAFC
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,239 ✭✭✭✭KeithAFC


    P. Breathnach wrote: »
    I accept what you say about the Ulster-Scots tradition as being generally true (there are exceptions to every generalisation), but there are more strands of Protestantism in NI than Ulster-Scots.
    It is all a mixture. Protestants from the Ulster Scots tradition are more devout in their religious beliefs.


  • #169
    P. Breathnach
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    KeithAFC wrote: »
    It is all a mixture. Protestants from the Ulster Scots tradition are more devout in their religious beliefs.
    And their political beliefs!


  • #170
    Happy Monday
    Registered Users Posts: 1,211 ✭✭✭Happy Monday


    KeithAFC wrote: »
    Happy Monday wrote: »
    People in England - I have lived there too - consider people on this island to be Irish and British as well.

    I have to come across one Ulster Protestant yet who considers himself Irish and not British. They see themselves as Irish and British or Northern Irish and British but never as just Irish.
    There is a reason for that though. I live amongst them and they all come from the Ulster Scots background. They are more Scottish than Irish. I don't consider myself Irish.

    Exactly my point in this thread.
    People down south would deny this and insist on you being Irish and nothing else.


  • #171
    P. Breathnach
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    Happy Monday wrote: »
    ...
    People down south would deny this and insist on you being Irish and nothing else.
    Some people "down south".


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  • #172
    dave2pvd
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,511 ✭✭✭dave2pvd


    Happy Monday wrote: »
    People down south would deny this and insist on you being Irish and nothing else.

    I don't agree. Quite a generalisation.


  • #173
    Happy Monday
    Registered Users Posts: 1,211 ✭✭✭Happy Monday


    P. Breathnach wrote: »
    Happy Monday wrote: »
    ...
    People down south would deny this and insist on you being Irish and nothing else.
    Some people "down south".

    All people down South in my experience.


  • #174
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    Happy Monday wrote: »
    Exactly my point in this thread.
    People down south would deny this and insist on you being Irish and nothing else.

    Ahem, I'm from the south and we have the Good Friday/Belfast/Stormont Agreement so people in the South accept him for what he is.


  • #175
    jonniebgood1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,578 ✭✭✭jonniebgood1


    KeithAFC wrote: »
    There is a reason for that though. I live amongst them and they all come from the Ulster Scots background. They are more Scottish than Irish. I don't consider myself Irish.

    The Ulster scots are an interesting grouping. I respect that you don't consider yourself Irish. Ancestors of Ulster scots are an interesting case though. In post no. 60 I mentioned this
    Is an Ulster-scot an Irishman for example- ........ They were planted in Ireland in the first place, settled in Ulster and developed their means to suit their situation in Ireland. Their descendants in America are termed 'Scotch Irish Americans' so it should be fair to call them Irish to some extent. They left Ireland when nationalism was perhaps not an issue as survival dominated personal agendas, work in the linen industry caused some of this in the late 18th century ('The Scotch-Irish in America' By Henry Jones Ford gives a timeline of this- pg 164). That those who remained in Ireland rather than emigrate may prefer in this era not to be referenced 'Irish' then brings about a problem in accepting peoples wishes on one hand or simply classifying them based upon where their inherited culture and heritage has been developed from. By 1790 14% of Americas population were emigrants from Northern Ireland ('Chasing the Frontier: Scots-Irish in Early America' By Larry Hoefling, pg 18) and they must form a large part of Americas Irish lineage which is proudly declared. To link back with the thread title I would expect that many of these people will celebrate centenaries with enthusiastic gusto that Ireland will welcome.
    It is never universal but I think it is interesting that descendants of planted people in America celebrate their Irishness but similar distance descendants in NI wish to have nothing to do with being Irish. It all comes down to personal choice at the end of the day.


  • #176
    Happy Monday
    Registered Users Posts: 1,211 ✭✭✭Happy Monday


    CDfm wrote: »
    Happy Monday wrote: »
    Exactly my point in this thread.
    People down south would deny this and insist on you being Irish and nothing else.

    Ahem, I'm from the south and we have the Good Friday/Belfast/Stormont Agreement so people in the South accept him for what he is.

    Look at Darren Clarke for instance.
    Wins the Open.
    Now an Irishman.
    Not a Northern Irishman.
    Not a Briton.
    An Irishman only as Greg Allen would have it.


  • #177
    KeithAFC
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,239 ✭✭✭✭KeithAFC


    jonniebgood1 wrote: »
    The Ulster scots are an interesting grouping. I respect that you don't consider yourself Irish. Ancestors of Ulster scots are an interesting case though. In post no. 60 I mentioned this
    It is never universal but I think it is interesting that descendants of planted people in America celebrate their Irishness but similar distance descendants in NI wish to have nothing to do with being Irish. It all comes down to personal choice at the end of the day.
    A lot of the people from the Ulster Scots background left Ulster and went to America and ended up fighting the British in the American revolutionary war. If they had been around today, they would have most likely been Unionist. It wasn't always one way traffic in terms of people from the Ulster Scots background being Unionist. The ironic thing is they helped shape the United States with George Washington but a lot of Ulster Scots fought against the Union for the CSA during the American civil war.

    But the background towards these group of people has always involved fighting to some degree. From the border fighting from Scotland and England to the siege of Derry and the Boyne, 1916 Somme and so on.



  • #178
    TomKat
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 128 ✭✭TomKat


    Having freckles and a farmer's tan and actually liking Guinness


  • #179
    jonniebgood1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,578 ✭✭✭jonniebgood1


    KeithAFC wrote: »
    A lot of the people from the Ulster Scots background left Ulster and went to America and ended up fighting the British in the American revolutionary war. If they had been around today, they would have most likely been Unionist.

    So it is the invening period of time that has determined what the Ulster scots see as their heritage, i.e. after the large scale emigration (associated with the slow down of the linen industry in the late 1700's). In some terms this would seem like a narrow field of time to sort out ones heritage. It does coincide with the development of nationalism (in international terms rather than Irish) amongst much of Europe.


  • #180
    KeithAFC
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,239 ✭✭✭✭KeithAFC


    jonniebgood1 wrote: »
    So it is the invening period of time that has determined what the Ulster scots see as their heritage, i.e. after the large scale emigration (associated with the slow down of the linen industry in the late 1700's). In some terms this would seem like a narrow field of time to sort out ones heritage. It does coincide with the development of nationalism (in international terms rather than Irish) amongst much of Europe.
    Does go some way back before that. Although heritage can change over time. A very good documentary though.


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  • #181
    Wild Bill
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,129 ✭✭✭Wild Bill


    CDfm wrote: »

    Scotland has a fairly strong identity.

    So, it's a country in the sense that Hamburg is ;)!

    I'll na be disagreein' wi thawt!


  • #182
    Wild Bill
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,129 ✭✭✭Wild Bill


    TomKat wrote: »
    Having freckles and a farmer's tan and actually liking Guinness

    Whatever about liking Guinness I feel some folk do indeed think having a pale complexion is an important feature of Irishness.

    (If ya know what I mean, nudge, nudge, ;), ;))


  • #183
    slowburner
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,221 Mod ✭✭✭✭slowburner


    Wild Bill wrote: »
    Whatever about liking Guinness I feel some folk do indeed think having a pale complexion is an important feature of Irishness.

    (If ya know what I mean, nudge, nudge, ;), ;))
    I hope you don't Wild Bill, that could be a perilous avenue to explore in search of Irishness.


  • #184
    Bannasidhe
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    slowburner wrote: »
    I hope you don't Wild Bill, that could be a perilous avenue to explore in search of Irishness.

    Indeed.


  • #185
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    Wild Bill wrote: »
    So, it's a country in the sense that Hamburg is ;)!

    I'll na be disagreein' wi thawt!

    LOL biggrin.gif

    Hamburg is probably the richest region in Europe , if you exclude London's Square Mile.

    And it is a republic and has its own constitution.

    I am going to use a wiki here cos its handy

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government_of_Hamburg


  • #186
    TomKat
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 128 ✭✭TomKat


    Wild Bill wrote: »
    Whatever about liking Guinness I feel some folk do indeed think having a pale complexion is an important feature of Irishness.

    (If ya know what I mean, nudge, nudge, ;), ;))

    White as a Sheep


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  • #187
    dubhthach
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭dubhthach


    Wild Bill wrote: »
    Whatever about liking Guinness I feel some folk do indeed think having a pale complexion is an important feature of Irishness.

    (If ya know what I mean, nudge, nudge, ;), ;))
    TomKat wrote: »
    White as a Sheep

    Folks, this isn't a tangent that I'll tolerate on the thread.


  • #188
    Wild Bill
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,129 ✭✭✭Wild Bill


    dubhthach wrote: »
    Folks, this isn't a tangent that I'll tolerate on the thread.

    I'm not sure that this issue is tangential to the subject of defining "Irishness".

    I believe, based on what I read and hear, that a certain minority actually believe that white genes are an essential part of Irishness.

    Clearly that isn't a view I support; but to state that such a view exists, albeit it is usually obliquely expressed, or expressed in code (nudge, ;)) is hardly "tangential"? :mad:


  • #189
    Bannasidhe
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    Wild Bill wrote: »
    I'm not sure that this issue is tangential to the subject of defining "Irishness".

    I believe, based on what I read and hear, that a certain minority actually believe that white genes are an essential part of Irishness.

    Clearly that isn't a view I support; but to state that such a view exists, albeit it is usually obliquely expressed, or expressed in code (nudge, ;)) is hardly "tangential"? :mad:

    Personally I am beige to coffee colour depending on amount of sun available. My brother goes from milk to beetroot.

    Some people may think a 'white gene' (what ever that is) is a precondition of being Irish - they are wrong. As are those who think being Catholic is.

    Yes - these people exist. Yes - we must acknowledge they exist. But - this is also the kind of insular, absolutist, narrow-minded crap I, for one, will always challenge.


  • #190
    jonniebgood1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,578 ✭✭✭jonniebgood1


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    Personally I am beige to coffee colour depending on amount of sun available. My brother goes from milk to beetroot.

    Some people may think a 'white gene' (what ever that is) is a precondition of being Irish - they are wrong. As are those who think being Catholic is.

    Yes - these people exist. Yes - we must acknowledge they exist. But - this is also the kind of insular, absolutist, narrow-minded crap I, for one, will always challenge.

    BNP?


  • #191
    Bannasidhe
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    jonniebgood1 wrote: »
    BNP?

    Indeed :p.


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  • #192
    slowburner
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,221 Mod ✭✭✭✭slowburner


    Wild Bill wrote: »
    I'm not sure that this issue is tangential to the subject of defining "Irishness".

    I believe, based on what I read and hear, that a certain minority actually believe that white genes are an essential part of Irishness.

    Clearly that isn't a view I support; but to state that such a view exists, albeit it is usually obliquely expressed, or expressed in code (nudge, ;)) is hardly "tangential"? :mad:

    How is it clear that this is not a view you support?
    It doesn't really matter whether or not you support this Benny Hill view of skin colour and Irishness.
    The problem is that you have expressed it.
    You have written it down in public without clear condemnation, and doing that gives the view tacit support.


  • #193
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    How did we veer into this.

    Historically, Ireland has hardly had a non-white population of any significance. Because of Ireland's poverty it wasn't a country people immigrated to but emigrated from.

    I don't know of anyone who would say Phil Lynott was not Irish.

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=66445484&postcount=1

    And this is a history thread, so it should be about what the historical opinions of people were.


  • #194
    MarchDub
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,731 ✭✭✭MarchDub


    CDfm wrote: »

    And this is a history thread, so it should be about what the historical opinions of people were.

    Oh History - yes, thanks for the mentioning that!:)

    When the former American slave/abolitionist Frederick Douglass visited Ireland in the mid nineteenth century he found a country of white people, and was not at all hesitant in calling it that and writing about his experiences. Here is part of what he wrote on his experience with the white Irish - I have scanned two sections of it in from my own copy of his document so the American spelling remains as I was not about to do editing:

    It is dated January 1st 1846
    In the Northern States, a fugitive slave, liable to be hunted at any moment like a felon, and to be hurled into the terrible jaws of slavery— doomed by an inveterate prejudice against color to insult and outrage on every hand, (Massachusetts out of the question)—denied the privileges and courtesies common to others in the use of the most humble means of conveyance—shut out from the cabins on steamboats—refused admission to respectable hotels—caricatured, scorned, scoffed, mocked and maltreated with impunity by any one, (no matter how black his heart,) so he has a white skin.

    But now behold the change! Eleven days and a half gone, and I have crossed three thousand miles of the perilous deep. Instead of a democratic government, I am under a monarchical government. Instead of the bright blue sky of America, I am covered with the soft grey fog of the Emerald Isle. I breathe, and lo! the chattel becomes a man. I gaze around in vain for one who will question my equal humanity, claim me as his slave, or offer me an insult. I employ a cab—I am seated beside white people—I reach the hotel—I enter the same door— I am shown into the same parlor—I dine at the same table—and no one is offended. No delicate nose grows deformed in my presence. I find no difficulty here in obtaining admission into any place of worship, instruction or amusement, on equal terms with people as white as any I ever saw in the United States. I meet nothing to remind me of my complexion. I find myself regarded and treated at every turn with the kindness and deference paid to white people. When I go to church, I am met by no upturned nose and scornful lip to tell me, "We don't allow n——s in here"!
    Thank heaven for the respite I now enjoy! I had been in Dublin but a few days, when a gentleman of great respectability kindly offered to conduct me through all the public buildings of that beautiful city; and a little afterwards, I found myself dining with the Lord Mayor of Dublin. What a pity there was not some American democratic Christian at the door of his splendid mansion, to bark out at my approach, "They don't allow n s in here"! The truth is, the people here know nothing of the republican Negro hate prevalent in our glorious land. They measure and esteem men according to their moral and intellectual worth, and not according to the color of their skin. Whatever may be said of the aristocracies here, there is none based on the color of a man's skin.


  • #195
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    I believe Frederick Douglass visited Cork.

    Didn't he also have some contact with Father Matthew and Daniel O'Connell.

    On an aside, I wonder if he shared his thoughts on the famine ?


  • #196
    MarchDub
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,731 ✭✭✭MarchDub


    CDfm wrote: »
    I believe Frederick Douglass visited Cork.

    Didn't he also have some contact with Father Matthew and Daniel O'Connell.

    On an aside, I wonder if he shared his thoughts on the famine ?

    Yes, Father Matthew is mentioned and Douglass became good friends with O'Connell and visited his home. His descriptions of O'Connell are very interesting - O'Connell sitting around the dinner table telling stories and jokes. Another time he describes the two of them walking down Sackville St [now O'Connell St] in Dublin with young kids recognising O'Connell and chasing after him calling 'It's Dan, it's Dan' in affectionate ways and O'Connell turning and patting their heads.
    Douglass said it was like he was their Father come home...

    Yes, Douglass also mentions what would later be described as the early stages of the Famine - the starvation as he called it. What was very striking for him was the awful abject poverty that he saw throughout the countryside.

    Incidentally amongst his papers is a copy of 'God Save Ireland' ...it has a harp and a wolfhound motif on the top.


  • #197
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    MarchDub wrote: »
    . Another time he describes the two of them walking down Sackville St [now O'Connell St] in Dublin with young kids recognising O'Connell and chasing after him calling 'It's Dan, it's Dan' in affectionate ways and O'Connell turning and patting their heads.
    Douglass said it was like he was their Father come home...

    That's a bit like Muhammad Ali escaping his digs in 1972 and walking into Dublin followed by children. He swore like an Irishman.
    Awkwardly, though, when Ali came to town he didn’t seem to have been in particularly good form. O’Shannon told the Clare People in 2009 that Ali had spent the pre-interview period whining about manflu, before shocking the assembled RTÉ staff by muttering, ‘I hate this ******* place.’
    It seemed that Ali – who was staying in a hotel near Bray – had grown so frustrated with his rural surroundings that he had bailed to the Gresham in Dublin, but was then weary of being mobbed by children wherever he went.


    http://www.thejournal.ie/cead-mile-failte-five-other-controversial-visits-to-ireland-137105-May2011/

    Perhaps more importantly, he took lessons in hurling from Eddie Keher.

    In the summer of 1972, Eddie met Muhammed Ali in Enniskerry, Co. Wicklow, and taught the heavyweight champion how to hurl. ‘He was a hero of mine,’ said Eddie, ‘but I was surprised how quiet he was … until we met with the press.’ Eddie’s father Stephen had been a passionate boxing fan for a long time, and was fascinated by Ali. ‘I still remember getting up in the middle of the night to listen to the Ali-Sonny Liston bout with him on the radio’. Eddie took his father to see Ali fight Al Lewis later in the week. It wasn’t a great match but the Kehers enjoyed it. ‘When Ali went in for the kill, there was no stopping him’, recalls Eddie.

    http://www.turtlebunbury.com/interviews/interviews_ireland/sporting%20legends/interviews_sports_eddiekeher.html

    A digression, Frederick Douglass is a fascinating man.


  • #198
    thecommietommy
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 564 ✭✭✭thecommietommy


    MarchDub wrote: »
    Yes, Father Matthew is mentioned and Douglass became good friends with O'Connell and visited his home. His descriptions of O'Connell are very interesting - O'Connell sitting around the dinner table telling stories and jokes. Another time he describes the two of them walking down Sackville St [now O'Connell St] in Dublin with young kids recognising O'Connell and chasing after him calling 'It's Dan, it's Dan' in affectionate ways and O'Connell turning and patting their heads.
    Douglass said it was like he was their Father come home...

    Yes, Douglass also mentions what would later be described as the early stages of the Famine - the starvation as he called it. What was very striking for him was the awful abject poverty that he saw throughout the countryside.

    Incidentally amongst his papers is a copy of 'God Save Ireland' ...it has a harp and a wolfhound motif on the top.
    CDfm wrote: »

    A digression, Frederick Douglass is a fascinating man.
    Not trying to drag this off topic, but didn't Fr Matthew stab Douglass in the back later by making overtures in favour of the Confederates in the American Civil War ? In fact I think Douglass was treated quite badly by the Irish in America ?


  • #199
    MarchDub
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,731 ✭✭✭MarchDub


    thecommietommy wrote: »
    Not trying to drag this off topic, but didn't Fr Matthew stab Douglass in the back later by making overtures in favour of the Confederates in the American Civil War ? In fact I think Douglass was treated quite badly by the Irish in America ?

    I'm afraid I know very little about Father Matthew - but Douglass remained a friend to Ireland and years after the [1860s] American Civil War when he was a well known and respected social reformer [among other roles] he spoke in support of Home Rule for Ireland and for Parnell. He visited Ireland again in 1886.

    But if we go further down this path we will be off topic for sure....


  • #200
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    thecommietommy wrote: »
    Not trying to drag this off topic, but didn't Fr Matthew stab Douglass in the back later by making overtures in favour of the Confederates in the American Civil War ?

    From beyond the grave :eek:

    There was something about Matthew's open support for abolition versus his total commitment to the temperance movement. I am going to suggest that he saw a conflict and wanted his movement to be apolitical whatever his personal opinion was.

    I seem to remember he delayed signing the anti-slavery petition though he was friendly with Douglass.Douglass had a political movement , hence the conflict.

    I am guessing this was near the end of his life .
    Douglass was treated quite badly by the Irish in America ?

    Off topic I know but any sources ?


  • #201
    Wild Bill
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,129 ✭✭✭Wild Bill


    slowburner wrote: »
    The problem is that you have expressed it.


    No. I most certainly have not.
    You have written it down in public without clear condemnation, and doing that gives the view tacit support.

    I will cite any opinion without feeling any obligation to give "clear" condemnation.

    If you don't understand irony then I suggest you go to some place where autism is admired.

    (And now I wait for the PC police :rolleyes:)


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