Cromwell in Ireland

zaister · 14-08-2008 11:28am #1

Anybody know anything about the new series on Oliver Cromwell in Ireland that's supposed to be going out in September? I think it's high time RTE tackled this subject.

dresden8 · 15-08-2008 12:21am

Wait until McArmalite sinks his teeth into it.

Fratton Fred · 15-08-2008 9:02am

dresden8 wrote: »

Wait until McArmalite sinks his teeth into it.

I guess this will either be a fine example of the brutality and evilness of the British Empire, or a typical West Brit revisionist sham

I wonder if there will be a documentary on the 1641 massacre?

zaister · 15-08-2008 12:36pm

Maybe, but going on the trailer it looks like this documentary is going to have large-scale drama re-enactments - battle scenes, massacres etc. I wonder who gets to play Cromwell

Fratton Fred · 15-08-2008 2:03pm

zaister wrote: »

Maybe, but going on the trailer it looks like this documentary is going to have large-scale drama re-enactments - battle scenes, massacres etc. I wonder who gets to play Cromwell

aahh, its a drame then, not a documentary.

Judging by his latest remarks about the Scots, maybe Jeremy Paxman will be playing Cromwell:D

The trouble with a Drama, is that they will somehow try to get love interests in and show the human side which may well detract from reality. I mean, do you really think William Wallace slept with the Queen's sister?

boneless · 15-08-2008 3:55pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

aahh, its a drame then, not a documentary.

Judging by his latest remarks about the Scots, maybe Jeremy Paxman will be playing Cromwell:D

The trouble with a Drama, is that they will somehow try to get love interests in and show the human side which may well detract from reality. I mean, do you really think William Wallace slept with the Queen's sister?

Mel Gibson wouldn't lie. I mean, look at The Passion....:p

As far as I know, the series on Cromwell is a documentary with dramatic scenes included. Oh, and the 1641 massacres were possibly not as clear cut as they have been represented in the writings of the day. Without trivialising the deaths of many, there is evidence (if the documents are examined) of the tales being hyped up and interspersed with tales from Bohemia to rally forces in England against James as much as anything else.

Fratton Fred · 16-08-2008 11:56am

boneless wrote: »

Mel Gibson wouldn't lie. I mean, look at The Passion....:p

As far as I know, the series on Cromwell is a documentary with dramatic scenes included. Oh, and the 1641 massacres were possibly not as clear cut as they have been represented in the writings of the day. Without trivialising the deaths of many, there is evidence (if the documents are examined) of the tales being hyped up and interspersed with tales from Bohemia to rally forces in England against James as much as anything else.

1641 and Drogheda were probably both hyped up by very early day spin doctors i would say.

it would be interesting to see a historian really look into it though and try and get the truth, if anyone wants the truth that is.

dresden8 · 16-08-2008 1:39pm

Truth?

Never let the facts get in the way of your beliefs Fred. Revisionist scum.:p

boneless · 16-08-2008 5:15pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

1641 and Drogheda were probably both hyped up by very early day spin doctors i would say.

it would be interesting to see a historian really look into it though and try and get the truth, if anyone wants the truth that is.

As far as I am aware Professor Tom Bartlett of UCD is at present researching the period in connection with his history of military revolution and innovation in Ireland. I know he covered the period in a lecture I attended and alluded to the possibility of his research going deeper at some stage.

zaister · 18-08-2008 11:21am

Fratton Fred wrote: »

aahh, its a drame then, not a documentary.

Judging by his latest remarks about the Scots, maybe Jeremy Paxman will be playing Cromwell:D

The trouble with a Drama, is that they will somehow try to get love interests in and show the human side which may well detract from reality. I mean, do you really think William Wallace slept with the Queen's sister?

It's definitely not a drama. According to all the news reports it's a documentary with dramatic scenes. A 2 x 1 hour series apparently. The presenter is a guy called Micheal O Siochru who has just brought out a book on the subject.

Fratton Fred · 18-08-2008 12:13pm

There is a review of the book in the times.
http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/tol/arts_and_entertainment/books/book_reviews/article4540922.ece

To be honest, the review doesn't sound like there is too much in the way of "shocking new evidence". Might be worth a read but the guy is obviously a West Brit revisionist though

guinnessdrinker · 18-08-2008 1:32pm

The series might be interesting and will provoke debate but the Times reviewer says that book is dismayingly badly written, not a good sign.

McArmalite · 18-08-2008 8:18pm

dresden8 wrote: »

Wait until McArmalite sinks his teeth into it.

My reputation proceeds me

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I guess this will either be a fine example of the brutality and evilness of the British Empire, or a typical West Brit revisionist sham

I wonder if there will be a documentary on the 1641 massacre?

Hopefully it will be "a fine example of the brutality and evilness of the British Empire " and hopefully some of our british friends will be able to accept that though I'll be doubtful

.

As for the alleged massacre of 1641, the whole thing was blown out of proportion by English propagandists. The inevitable backlash by the Irish to give the planters a taste of their own medicine probaly only numbered a few thousand. Of the personnell killed, it's not really possible to establish if their were combatants or civilains. However as stated the whole thing was blown out of preportion by English propagandists of the day, tens of thousands killed , fellas roasted over fires like a barbaque, babies cut out of pregnant women etc

Fratton Fred · 18-08-2008 10:11pm

McArmalite wrote: »

My reputation proceeds me

Hopefully it will be "a fine example of the brutality and evilness of the British Empire " and hopefully some of our british friends will be able to accept that though I'll be doubtful .

As for the alleged massacre of 1641, the whole thing was blown out of proportion by English propagandists. The inevitable backlash by the Irish to give the planters a taste of their own medicine probaly only numbered a few thousand. Of the personnell killed, it's not really possible to establish if their were combatants or civilains. However as stated the whole thing was blown out of preportion by English propagandists of the day, tens of thousands killed , fellas roasted over fires like a barbaque, babies cut out of pregnant women etc

does it not occur to you that both events are hyped up as propaganda?

boneless · 19-08-2008 2:50am

I just remembered where I read the most honest and horrific account of the taking of Drogheda and Wexford... it was Oliver Cromwells own reports to Parliament

! He didn't try to cover up the fact there was a massacre.

Fratton Fred · 19-08-2008 8:47am

boneless wrote: »

I just remembered where I read the most honest and horrific account of the taking of Drogheda and Wexford... it was Oliver Cromwells own reports to Parliament ! He didn't try to cover up the fact there was a massacre.

The fact that there was a "massacre" (By todays standards)is beyond doubt. Where I believe the propaganda comes in, is who was massacred.

It was commone practice in the 17th century for a besieging army to offer terms to the defending garrison. If this was refused then no quarter was given and all the defenders would be put to the sword.

The propaganda though tells of innocent people being murdered but most historians now agree that Drogheda was all but empty of civilians by the time Cromwell's army attacked.

Cromwell himself would also have overplayed the "Massacre" as a warning to other cities, scare tactics if you like, to try and make them surrender easier.

boneless · 19-08-2008 2:22pm

Fred, I agree he "garnished the lily" a bit in his reports to London to justify his appeal for funds to continue the campaign. Like what was referred to recently as "sexing up" the reports of WMD's in Iraq. But I worked on a number of test excavations in Drogheda a while ago and on one archaeological dig. There were civilian casualities in many of the sites.

We uncovered skeletons of women and children with definate sword and other blunt trauma wounds to the head and neck areas which were perimortem. The dating evidence was also suggestive of the period in question. I agree this does not fully support a theory of a wholesale massacre of the general population but we were surprised at the numbers found in the areas we were digging.

The inference I drew was the historical (written and oral) evidence was slowly been propped up by the archaeological evidence. Watch this space.

Fratton Fred · 19-08-2008 2:39pm

boneless wrote: »

We uncovered skeletons of women and children with definate sword and other blunt trauma wounds to the head and neck areas which were perimortem. The dating evidence was also suggestive of the period in question. I agree this does not fully support a theory of a wholesale massacre of the general population but we were surprised at the numbers found in the areas we were digging.

The inference I drew was the historical (written and oral) evidence was slowly been propped up by the archaeological evidence. Watch this space.

That's interesting, I thought archaeological evidence was pointing in the other direction. I will indeed watch this space:)

boneless · 19-08-2008 2:42pm

While the numbers of individuals are not great the trend is growing the more building work is allowing excavations. Although the "recession" will mean we will have to watch the space for a little while longer than I hoped...;)

McArmalite · 19-08-2008 3:53pm

boneless wrote: »

Fred, I agree he "garnished the lily" a bit in his reports to London to justify his appeal for funds to continue the campaign. Like what was referred to recently as "sexing up" the reports of WMD's in Iraq. But I worked on a number of test excavations in Drogheda a while ago and on one archaeological dig. There were civilian casualities in many of the sites.

We uncovered skeletons of women and children with definate sword and other blunt trauma wounds to the head and neck areas which were perimortem. The dating evidence was also suggestive of the period in question. I agree this does not fully support a theory of a wholesale massacre of the general population but we were surprised at the numbers found in the areas we were digging.

The inference I drew was the historical (written and oral) evidence was slowly been propped up by the archaeological evidence. Watch this space.

Very interesting boneless, good man yourself.

Belfast · 19-08-2008 4:03pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

aahh, its a drame then, not a documentary.

Judging by his latest remarks about the Scots, maybe Jeremy Paxman will be playing Cromwell:D

The trouble with a Drama, is that they will somehow try to get love interests in and show the human side which may well detract from reality. I mean, do you really think William Wallace slept with the Queen's sister?

I vote for Michael O'leary to play Cromwell.

just finished reading

BOOK - To Hell or Barbados, An Ethnic Cleansing of Ireland.
By Sean O'Callaghan
http://globalgenealogy.com/countries/ireland/resources/080638.htm
it is a good book on the subject.

It gives some good information on the sale of Irish and English slaves to the west Indies, Barbados and the Americas by Cromwell and those who came after him.
I have not seen much on the history of this slave trade elsewhere.
Some doubt if it ever happened.
The sadest part of the book was the account of the what was left of Irish and scots slves in Barbados(the Red legs) and what a bad state that community are in today

Belfast · 19-08-2008 4:11pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

The fact that there was a "massacre" (By todays standards)is beyond doubt. Where I believe the propaganda comes in, is who was massacred.

It was commone practice in the 17th century for a besieging army to offer terms to the defending garrison. If this was refused then no quarter was given and all the defenders would be put to the sword.

The propaganda though tells of innocent people being murdered but most historians now agree that Drogheda was all but empty of civilians by the time Cromwell's army attacked.

Cromwell himself would also have overplayed the "Massacre" as a warning to other cities, scare tactics if you like, to try and make them surrender easier.

I agree you have to look at history by the standards of the time and the customs of war of the day.

Almost all history is spin.

It was in Cromwell's interest talk up how hard he was on the Irish in parliament.

Also Cromwell was in very bad health by the time he came to Ireland and this affected his thinking and how he acted.

Ireland was only one of many problems Cromwell had at the time.

boneless · 19-08-2008 6:13pm

McArmalite wrote: »

Very interesting boneless, good man yourself.

Although I am a Socialist Republican, I would not use any evidence uncovered to further any cause apart from that of adding to the historical record and the science of archaeology. We can learn from the past but we don't have to dwell there too long

.

mikemac · 02-09-2008 10:41pm

Just to update the OP, this new two part program will be shown on RTE at 10:15pm and starts on Tuesday, September 9th

Dates for the diary folks

Erin Go Brath · 03-09-2008 12:11am

Belfast wrote: »

I agree you have to look at history by the standards of the time and the customs of war of the day.

Almost all history is spin.

It was in Cromwell's interest talk up how hard he was on the Irish in parliament.

Also Cromwell was in very bad health by the time he came to Ireland and this affected his thinking and how he acted.

Ireland was only one of many problems Cromwell had at the time.

This ignorance of this post beggars belief! :eek: Cromwell was a mass murderer! Cromwell and his ironsides slaugher and indiscriminate killings at Drogheda and Wexford were totally beyond contempt. Why make excuses for that piece of human filth? :mad:

Winston Churchill described the impact of Cromwell on Anglo-Irish relations: "upon all of these Cromwell's record was a lasting bane. By an uncompleted process of terror, by an iniquitous land settlement, by the virtual proscription of the Catholic religion, by the bloody deeds already described, he cut new gulfs between the nations and the creeds. 'Hell or Connaught' were the terms he thrust upon the native inhabitants, and they for their part, across three hundred years, have used as their keenest expression of hatred 'The Curse of Cromwell on you.' ... Upon all of us there still lies 'the curse of Cromwell'."

Cromwell is still a figure of hatred in Ireland, his name is associated with massacre, religious persecution, and mass dispossession of the Catholic community.

Erin Go Brath · 03-09-2008 12:14am

micmclo wrote: »

Just to update the OP, this new two part program will be shown on RTE at 10:15pm and starts on Tuesday, September 9th

Dates for the diary folks

Its the Hidden History series.
I hope they do a better job than last years very controversial Murders at Coolacrease programme. There was a thread here if i remember correctly.

Fratton Fred · 03-09-2008 8:48am

I caught the end of something on BBC last night which had a bit about cromwell.

I didn't realise his head was on a post outside the Palace of Westminster for 20 years until it blew off in a storm and was "Stolen" by one of the palace guards :eek:

I bet that was lovely

Snickers Man · 03-09-2008 10:09am

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I caught the end of something on BBC last night which had a bit about cromwell.

I didn't realise his head was on a post outside the Palace of Westminster for 20 years until it blew off in a storm and was "Stolen" by one of the palace guards :eek:

I bet that was lovely

Yup. That is true. I never remember being told at school that when the English restored the monarchy, the mob was so pissed off with the way the Puritans had screwed up the country that they exhumed Cromwell's body and hung it from the gibbet.

You've got to admire the innate sense of rebellion of the English!!!

I think we should do something similar with that old crook Haughey.

Just as an aside, I find it fascinating the way invaders always invoke the blessings of God on their massacres. It wasn't Cromwell's soldiers who killed the people at Drogheda; it was God.

"A righteous judgement of God on these barbarous wretches" was how Cromwell put it. Just as Walter Raleigh wrote in a letter to Queen Elizabeth how a massacre he had committed in Kerry how "Thus it has pleased the Lord of Hosts to deliver your enemies."

Bit of a dodgy character, this God.

Fratton Fred · 03-09-2008 10:49am

Snickers Man wrote: »

Just as Walter Raleigh wrote in a letter to Queen Elizabeth how a massacre he had committed in Kerry how "Thus it has pleased the Lord of Hosts to deliver your enemies."

Bit of a dodgy character, this God.

It was Arthur "Lord Grey De Wilton" actually who wrote that. I believe there is also some debate that Raleigh was even at Smerwick as the Military records at the time indicate he was in Tipparary.

But yeah, God does get blamed for a lot of things, just as Allah does today.

dresden8 · 04-09-2008 10:57pm

I don't know why McArmalite hates Cromwell.

He was a republican who overthrew the British government and executed the king of England.

Politics makes strange bedfellows and all that.

Jimbo · 06-09-2008 3:17pm

dresden8 wrote: »

I don't know why McArmalite hates Cromwell.

He was a republican who overthrew the British government and executed the king of England.

Politics makes strange bedfellows and all that.

Only before slaughtering 500,000 Irish people.

You got to respect Bertie Ahern for having the balls to walk out of Robin Cooks office after seeing a painting of Cromwell on the wall.

pablomakaveli · 06-09-2008 5:19pm

jimbo78 wrote: »

Only before slaughtering 500,000 Irish people.

You got to respect Bertie Ahern for having the balls to walk out of Robin Cooks office after seeing a painting of Cromwell on the wall.

i agree. cromwell was a monster. what he did was even considered terrible even for that time as there was generally accepted rules of war at the time.

even british historians have agreed what he did in ireland was a blot on his reputation that will outlast his achievements.

Fratton Fred · 07-09-2008 8:57pm

jimbo78 wrote: »

Only before slaughtering 500,000 Irish people.

You got to respect Bertie Ahern for having the balls to walk out of Robin Cooks office after seeing a painting of Cromwell on the wall.

I heard it was 3 million.:rolleyes:

Jimbo · 07-09-2008 9:15pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I heard it was 3 million.:rolleyes:

I can't recall where I heard that from but:

An
estimated 500,000 Irish people died from war, plague and famine during Cromwell’s military
campaign, making it one of the greatest catastrophes ever to befall the country.

from http://www.rte.ie/tv/cromwellinireland/Cromwell-in-Ireland.pdf

Maybe he didn't slaughter 500,000, but he was directly repsonsible for their deaths.

Keep your :rolleyes: to yourself

McArmalite · 07-09-2008 9:59pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I heard it was 3 million.:rolleyes:

I heard the same about the Birmingham, Guildford, and Harrods etc bombings

. Whether it's true or not I don't care. But surely Osam Bin Laden's people are planning to inflict as mcuh casualties as possible on probaly the worst terrorist nation in history. We'll see if certain people will smirk about the murder of innocent people then

Fratton Fred · 08-09-2008 10:20am

McArmalite wrote: »

I heard the same about the Birmingham, Guildford, and Harrods etc bombings . Whether it's true or not I don't care. But hopefully Osam Bin Laden's people are planning to inflict as mcuh casualties as possible on probaly the worst terrorist nation in history. We'll see if certain people wil smirk about the murder of innocent people then

even by your exceptionally low standards, that is bad.

Jimbo · 08-09-2008 11:49am

Fratton Fred wrote: »

even by your exceptionally low standards, that is bad.

Agreed. Hope he's not serious

zaister · 08-09-2008 1:24pm

The promo for the series is available on YouTube. I have to admit I'm curious to see it

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKzU6ak5wsQ

Fratton Fred · 09-09-2008 9:42am

jimbo78 wrote: »

I can't recall where I heard that from but:

from http://www.rte.ie/tv/cromwellinireland/Cromwell-in-Ireland.pdf

Maybe he didn't slaughter 500,000, but he was directly repsonsible for their deaths.

Keep your :rolleyes: to yourself

OK, it was overly sarcastic, but 500,000 were not slaughtered by Cromwell. A great many of the figures banded around from that era are little more than propaganda to give excuses for suspicion and hatred.

If you read the Wiki article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cromwellian_conquest_of_Ireland it states around 15 to 20% of the population were killed or exiled, Which was around 1.5million at the time.

If you then read this article http://www.saburchill.com/history/chapters/chap4008f.html it states that the irish population went from 1.5million in 1641 to 850k in 1652. a fall of 650k.

This is during the whole confederate wars and would have included the early massacres in Ulster as well as the massacres at Drogheda, Waterford etc.

Sure, an exceptionally high number of people were killed over that period, but to say Cromwell slaughtered half a million people is not true and sensationalist. Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to defend Cromwell, but lets stick to reality eh?

jimbo78 wrote: »

Agreed. Hope he's not serious

Who knows, he comes out with crap like this from time to time and seems to get away with it.

LordSutch · 10-09-2008 1:12am

I saw Part One of the 'two part' documentary about Cromwell on RTE One last night (09th/Sept) and the one thing that really struck me was the Nationalities of Cromwells Enemies in Ireland!

Cromwell's 'New Model Army' was fighting an assorted enemy made up from English Royalist's - Irish Catholics English Catholics - Irish Protestants - English Protestants - Scottish Planters of all sorts, & everything else in between . . . .

The documentary was very enlightening 'as it was calculated' with the door left firmly ajar as to whether Cromwell's forces deliberately comitted a massive atrocity against 'women & children' in Drogheda . . or not ?

No doubt the arguement will rage on in this Thread, and my own impression from this RTE historical programe was that Cromwell was hell bent on revenge for the slaughter of tens of thousands of Protestants (as reported ) several years earlier!

Whether or not the stories of Protestants being slaughtered in Ireland on an industrial scale was exaggerated or not - Cromwell believed the version of events 'Reported in England' & when he had despatched with the King's head in London, he turned his focus on Ireland & decided to sort out Ireland's Royalist's & Papist's once & for all - and by 'God's Command'.

Part Two > Next Tuesday (16th/Sept) 9:15pm RTE One.

mrjoneill · 10-09-2008 1:27am

Nothing revisionist about it at all, it showed the brutality of the English not only on the Irish but on their very own when they were on the wrong side, in this case of the Royalist cause as it was these that resided within the walled towns and fortresses in Ireland. As for the 1641 Rebellion it was mostly British propaganda chiefly on the descendants of Mountbatten’s wife the then Master of the Rolls Sir John Temple then Master of the Rolls in the 17th century and its from this confiscations that they inherited their Sligo estate. Strange how the wheel went full circle there.

Judgement Day · 10-09-2008 11:09am

McArmalite wrote: »

I heard the same about the Birmingham, Guildford, and Harrods etc bombings . Whether it's true or not I don't care. But surely Osam Bin Laden's people are planning to inflict as mcuh casualties as possible on probaly the worst terrorist nation in history. We'll see if certain people will smirk about the murder of innocent people then

Well despite your comments I hope that you are not there if/when Bin Laden's lunatics strike again! I think with your attitude a spell in Guantanamo Bay would be beneficial - at least it would keep you off Boards.ie.

:p

McArmalite · 10-09-2008 11:16am

Fratton Fred wrote: »

even by your exceptionally low standards, that is bad.

Fratton Fred wrote:

Who knows, he comes out with crap like this from time to time and seems to get away with it.

Your the one who makes a snide comment about the deaths of Irish people, and you think it should be regarded as a bit of 'fun'.

I reply with a snide comment on the deaths of british people and ofcourse you find it offensive.

Fighting fire with fire, if you want it to stop, drop the insulting comments and then you wouldn't have to worry about any snide replies from me

robp · 10-09-2008 11:18am

I thought it was reasonably balanced; it did give arguments to support him.
The main condemning argument was simply he should have been in control of his troops so any excesses of troops in wexford for instance were more him losing control then a calculated massacure.

The re-enactments and period costumes were very impressive.
Nice to hear a bit of Irish and Latin thrown in too
.

getz · 10-09-2008 11:40am

cromwell was a religious fanatic who made england a republic in 1649after the execution of charles1 he terrorized and killed not only the irish but also the english ---when you talk of massacres dont forget the british goverment troops also put people to the sword in the 19th cen .ie the peterloo massacre

Fratton Fred · 10-09-2008 11:46am

McArmalite wrote: »

Your the one who makes a snide comment about the deaths of Irish people, and you think it should be regarded as a bit of 'fun'.

I reply with a snide comment on the deaths of british people and ofcourse you find it offensive.

Fighting fire with fire, if you want it to stop, drop the insulting comments and then you wouldn't have to worry about any snide replies from me

I was actually making a snide comment about the poster sensationalising the numbers of deaths, not about the deaths themselves.

Typical of you to over react tbh.

McArmalite · 10-09-2008 11:50am

Camelot wrote: »

I saw Part One of the 'two part' documentary about Cromwell on RTE One last night (09th/Sept) and the one thing that really struck me was the Nationalities of Cromwells Enemies in Ireland!

Cromwell's 'New Model Army' was fighting an assorted enemy made up from English Royalist's - Irish Catholics English Catholics - Irish Protestants - English Protestants - Scottish Planters of all sorts, & everything else in between . . . .

The documentary was very enlightening 'as it was calculated' with the door left firmly ajar as to whether Cromwell's forces deliberately comitted a massive atrocity against 'women & children' in Drogheda . . or not ?

No doubt the arguement will rage on in this Thread, and my own impression from this RTE historical programe was that Cromwell was hell bent on revenge for the slaughter of tens of thousands of Protestants (as reported ) several years earlier!

Whether or not the stories of Protestants being slaughtered in Ireland on an industrial scale was exaggerated or not - Cromwell believed the version of events 'Reported in England' & when he had despatched with the King's head in London, he turned his focus on Ireland & decided to sort out Ireland's Royalist's & Papist's once & for all - and by 'God's Command'.

Part Two > Next Tuesday (16th/Sept) 9:15pm RTE One.

Yeah it's not bad, I was afraid it would be like last year's Killing at Coolacrease tripe. But then if Eoghan Harris makes an appearance on anything then it's undoubtedly going to be utter rubbish. Yeah I had known regarding the deaths of many, if not most, of those at Drogheda were English or " Old English " as they were referred to, infirming they were descendants of the Anglo Norman stock. Whether the same can be said of other towns I cann't say for sure, but it probably followed the same pattern in the population of Dublin, Wexford etc

Most of the population of the garrison ports/towns ( Drogheda, Dublin, Wexford, etc) on the east coast were made up of 'Old English' as the rules of the time forbade the native Irish to live within the garrison walls. E.g. they could come in to trade at markets, even work as a servant etc but had to leave at night for the obvious fear of the natives turning mutinous and opening the gates etc for the Irish rebels from the rest of the country over running them. For example, modern day Irishtown in Dublin was outside the city walls several centuries ago and was where the Irish stayed when they had to leave the city boundaries overnight, hence giving the name to the area.

The reports of the slaughter of Protestants in Ireland were a complete fabrication, try watching the ( excellent so far ) series about the English civil War on Discovery Knowledge called Blood on Our Hands running at the moment. The Puritan fanatics indulged in all sorts of what we would call black propaganda today, i.e. making wild and exadurated claims to bolster their own fanatic beliefs and demonise the opposition. It's a good point you make whether Cromwell believed these or not is conjecture, but since Cromwell was one of the leaders, it's undoubted he knew about these wild and exaggerated claims but perpetrated the military slaughters due to his own fanaticism. It's like wondering did Hiimmler believe in Hitler's racial policies or not.

McArmalite · 10-09-2008 11:55am

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I was actually making a snide comment about the poster sensationalising the numbers of deaths, not about the deaths themselves.

Typical of you to over react tbh.

Well then you should have addressed it in a respectful way and not presented it in a snide fashion - to which will inevitably produce a similar reply.

Fratton Fred · 10-09-2008 12:13pm

McArmalite wrote: »

Well then you should have addressed it in a respectful way and not presented it in a snide fashion - to which will inevitably produce a similar reply.

OK.

Good of you to change your original post too. "Surely Al Qeada..." is a million miles from "Hopefully Al Qeada...."

McArmalite · 10-09-2008 12:14pm

getz wrote: »

cromwell was a religious fanatic who made england a republic in 1649after the execution of charles1 he terrorized and killed not only the irish but also the english ---when you talk of massacres dont forget the british goverment troops also put people to the sword in the 19th cen .ie the peterloo massacre

Fair enough points, but lets not use these ( and I'm not saying you are ) to lessening the feelings of injustice that the vast majority have of the period. I rememeber reading that something like 500,000 German civilians ( Socialists, trade unionists, etc ) were sent to concentration camps several years before other minorities were. ( Not much of an international cry was raised at the time as most of the gallant 'Allies' would like to have done the same with 'troublemakers' in their own countries. )

My main point been, like someone trying to use the 500,000 Germans to deflect attention and criticism of Germany's atrocities across Europe - lets not let anyone to try and deflect England's culablity in this genocide perpetrated on Ireland.

Shinji Ikari · 10-09-2008 3:39pm

zaister wrote: »

The promo for the series is available on YouTube. I have to admit I'm curious to see it

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKzU6ak5wsQ

****e! I missed this. Is it available on the internet? When is the second part out? I'm never heard of Bertie leaving an office because it had a picture of Cromwell. Does anyone have a link for this?

Cromwell in Ireland

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