"Later became a Sir" ?

zagmund · 10-07-2010 11:00pm #1

I'm working slowly through my old notes which I took back in the early 90s when I was doing some original research and I have a record of a family member born in 1872 and among the other bits of scribbles I have against his name is "was a builder with a yard on Temple Street (Dublin) and later became a Sir".

Now, I'm not the best on the oul Empire and awards and all that - does anyone know what the context of this "became a Sir" might be - were there many Dublin builders getting knighted around the start of the century ? Or is this not some sort of knighthood thing - is there another reason why the original source (would have been his nephew, aged around 75 when dictated to me) would have used the phrase "became a Sir" ?

z

zagmund · 10-07-2010 11:43pm

This just in - http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=465702.new;topicseen#new

Doesn't get me nearer to the bit about him being a 'Sir' but at least it's a start.

z

pinkypinky · 11-07-2010 12:17am

Well, people were knighted then as now for business services, etc. I checked Burke's and there's no mention of him but if he died without children, the title may have become extinct. Have you looked on the LDS for a possible death? There's one died 1937 in Dublin South registration district, year of birth given as 1874, which could be him.

http://pilot.familysearch.org/recordsearch/start.html#givenName=patrick&surname=shortall&year=1920&toYear=1958&p=recordResults&alivePlaceLoc1=Dublin%2C%20Ireland&searchType=close&placeId=1928918

johnny_doyle · 11-07-2010 10:32am

a bit about his brother John Francis Shortall :

http://www.dia.ie/architects/view/4950

some references to where Patrick Shortall was contractor

http://www.dia.ie/architects/view/4395#tab_works

There's a reference to Shortall in "Dear, dirty Dublin, a city in distress, 1899-1916" by Joseph O'Brien, mentions he was conferred a knighthood in 1916 as a loyal Nationalist.

johnny_doyle · 11-07-2010 11:32am

medal card for John Francis Shortall has him first as a Sapper, number 19027, Royal Engineers. Later Lt in Royal Engineers, then at Headquarters, RAF Middle East (RAF only came into service 1st April 1918)
Entered France 25/101/1915 then Salonika 7/11/1915. Award 1915 Star, British War Medal and Victory Medal.

5 addresses listed on his medal card :

1. HM Office of Works, Dublin
2. c/o Manager, National Bank, College Green, Dublin
3. 20 Lower St Brigid's Rd, Drumcondra, Dublin
4. Old Mill House, Tallaght, Co Dublin
5. 4 Summerhill Avenue, Sandycove

johnny_doyle · 17-07-2010 3:57pm

probably not related but there's some info about some Shortall's who met a sad end here

http://www.dlharbour.ie/content/history/articles/hobblers.php

CarolS · 07-09-2011 12:52pm

Hi,

I've just joined the forum as I'm looking for information on my greatgrandfather's (Matthew Shortall's) brother: Sir Patrick Shortall and I found your post. I would be very interested in knowing who you interviewed (which nephew?) as you say in your original post and what information he gave you.
I have a photo of him and his wife Mary (Polly) at home which I can send you if you like.

Hoping you can help.

zagmund · 13-09-2011 7:32pm

Carol - I left you a PM, but I see you've only posted once, so you may not bve checking in regularly.

I would be interested in a copy of the photo - PM me and we can arrange to get it to me.

I was in Glasnevin over the weekend and visited Patrick Shortalls grave. I don't have the reference to hand (it's scribbled on one of a million back-of-envelopes that I take notes on) but I can get it to you if that would help.

Your best bet is the rootschat thread linked above - there are actual Shortalls on that thread as far as I know. I'm once or twice removed from the Shortalls -my link is via his wifes family and not his own family.

z

berniedow · 21-01-2013 8:16pm

CarolS wrote: »

Hi,

I've just joined the forum as I'm looking for information on my greatgrandfather's (Matthew Shortall's) brother: Sir Patrick Shortall and I found your post. I would be very interested in knowing who you interviewed (which nephew?) as you say in your original post and what information he gave you.
I have a photo of him and his wife Mary (Polly) at home which I can send you if you like.

Hoping you can help.

Hi

I have lots of info on Matthew Shortall who it would appear is your great grandfather. Are you from his first marraige to Alice O'Gorman my partners granny, or from his 2nd marraige.

I am researching my partners family tree and am trying to trace PATRICK AND ANNE SHORTALL FROM KILKENNY his great great grandparents.

My partners grandfather was Matthew Shortall married to Alice O'Gorman in Dublin. Matthews brother was Sir Patrick Shortall from Dublin.

Matthew and Sir Patricks father was (my partners G/Grandfather) James Shortall married to Marcella Dunne. Have marraige cert.

James Shortall died in July 1853 in Dublin. Have death cert. He was 40, so born about 1853. Trying to trace his place of birth. Unable to locate birth cert. Am trying to trace where James is buried. Have tried Dublin cemeteries. No luck. Also trying to trace place of birth (Kilkenny?) to get next generation.

James parents were Patrick & Anne from Kilkenny. Anyone any clues.

Kind regards
Bernie

pedroeibar1 · 22-01-2013 12:04am

berniedow wrote: »

Hi

Anyone any clues.

Kind regards
Bernie

FWIW There was a nice old guy named Johhny Shorthall who used to hang around the Harbour in Dun Laoghaire - he had a bad limp, polio I think - and used to do odd jobs around the boatyard, help with the crane, etc.. Sadly he was murdered by a couple of thugs about 10 years ago. Mindless.

CarolS · 22-01-2013 11:02am

Hi Bernie,

So your partner and my mother are cousins!!

Here is Sir Patrick Shortall's Obituary which might give you some clues as to the family residence, it says the name of his house is Frankford on St. Laurence Road in Clontarf. Frankford is a town in Kilkenny, maybe some leads could be found there??:

Obituary: Irish Independent and Irish Times Monday June 29 1925
Death of Sir Patrick Shortall. Last Saturday, Sir Patrick Shortall died at his residence Frankford, St. Laurence Rd., Clontarf after a very brief illness.
The deceased was a building contractor. He started business in a small way in York St. and by industry and energy, became a large and successful contractor, employing at times hundreds of men.
He was born in Dublin 55 years ago and he occupied a prominent position in the business life of the city. For many years, he represented the Rotunda Ward in the Corporation. He was High Sheriff 1915-16 and was knighted in 1916 for his services in connection with the Civic Exhibition, which was held in 1916.
In 1918, in the Irish Party interest, he contested the Clontarf Parliamentary division but was defeated. He was a Governor of the Meath Hospital and took an interest in charitable institutions. He was a self made man.

I'll try and send you a private message later.

Thanks,

Carol

Coolnabacky1873 · 22-01-2013 1:36pm

Frankford, a townland, is also called Ballykieran. It is in the civil parish of Balleen and Registration District/PLU of Urlingford.

ifconfig · 22-01-2013 1:50pm

There is an entry in the Balleen district of Kilkenny / Griffith Valuations (1849/50) for a John Shortall in Balleen Little.
That location is only a stones throw (5km or so) from Frankford.

Might Patrick and Anne (James' parents) moved out from their homestead to Dublin around that time, earlier or in the intervening period ?

Shortall surname does seem to crop up quite a bit in Co.Kilkenny alright but John Shortall is the only land leasor shown in the Griffith Valuations in that "neck of the woods"

http://www.failteromhat.com/griffiths/kilkenny/balleen.htm

I know that a number of rural people who owned nice properties in Dublin often put the names of the townlands of their parents (or grandparents/homestead) on their house.
My g/grandfather put the rural louth area/homestead location on the name of his house and was listed in Thom's directory with that name, etc.

berniedow · 22-01-2013 2:44pm

Thanks.

We tried to find a James Shortall or his father Patrick Shortall from Frankford in Kilkenny but unless we have more info it is like looking for a needle in a haystack as it seems all the Shortalls in Ireland came from Kilkenny??

Cheers

Bernie

CarolS wrote: »

Hi Bernie,

So your partner and my mother are cousins!!

Here is Sir Patrick Shortall's Obituary which might give you some clues as to the family residence, it says the name of his house is Frankford on St. Laurence Road in Clontarf. Frankford is a town in Kilkenny, maybe some leads could be found there??:

Obituary: Irish Independent and Irish Times Monday June 29 1925
Death of Sir Patrick Shortall. Last Saturday, Sir Patrick Shortall died at his residence Frankford, St. Laurence Rd., Clontarf after a very brief illness.
The deceased was a building contractor. He started business in a small way in York St. and by industry and energy, became a large and successful contractor, employing at times hundreds of men.
He was born in Dublin 55 years ago and he occupied a prominent position in the business life of the city. For many years, he represented the Rotunda Ward in the Corporation. He was High Sheriff 1915-16 and was knighted in 1916 for his services in connection with the Civic Exhibition, which was held in 1916.
In 1918, in the Irish Party interest, he contested the Clontarf Parliamentary division but was defeated. He was a Governor of the Meath Hospital and took an interest in charitable institutions. He was a self made man.

I'll try and send you a private message later.

Thanks,

Carol

berniedow · 22-01-2013 2:46pm

Thanks.

Will follow up your lead.

Cheers

Bernie

ifconfig wrote: »

There is an entry in the Balleen district of Kilkenny / Griffith Valuations (1849/50) for a John Shortall in Balleen Little.
That location is only a stones throw (5km or so) from Frankford.

Might Patrick and Anne (James' parents) moved out from their homestead to Dublin around that time, earlier or in the intervening period ?

Shortall surname does seem to crop up quite a bit in Co.Kilkenny alright but John Shortall is the only land leasor shown in the Griffith Valuations in that "neck of the woods"

http://www.failteromhat.com/griffiths/kilkenny/balleen.htm

I know that a number of rural people who owned nice properties in Dublin often put the names of the townlands of their parents (or grandparents/homestead) on their house.
My g/grandfather put the rural louth area/homestead location on the name of his house and was listed in Thom's directory with that name, etc.

berniedow · 24-04-2017 9:12pm

Sir Patrick was High Sheriff a Nationalist and Lord Mayor of Dublin in early 1900's. I have lots of info on his family and life if you are interested. My partner is descended from Matthew Shortall who is Sir Patrick Shortall's brother.

I am in process of tracing my partner Thomas Shortall's family tree. After a break we are now back to tracing his great grand father ie father of Matthew Shortall (brother of Sir Patrick ).

Matthews and Patrick's parents were James shortall and Marcella Dunne. We have their marriage cert from St Andrews Church Westland Row Dublin dated 7th May 1871. James Shortall was living at 33 Clarendon St Dublin at this time. His parents (Matthews grandparents) were Patrick & Anne from Kilkenny. We know his grandparents were alive at the wedding of James & Marcella in 1871.

Marcella was a widow in the 1901 census. James died 20th July 1893 age 40. He was a tailor. His address at the time was st Michaels' terrace Dublin. We are trying to trace the Kilkenny roots. We need the parish name to get any further.

Also we discovered Matthew my partner's grandfather age 12 was in an industrial school in 1901 in Dublin and despite our best efforts we are unable to discover the reason why. We have Matthews death cert and have visited his grave in Deansgrange Dublin where he is buried with his first wife Thomas's grandmother Alice O'Gorman. According to 1911 census Alice was born in NY. No further information on Alice except she had a sister Mary and her parents were Edward & Mary O'Gorman. She died age 39 in 1928.

We would be grateful for any further info on any of the above.

"Later became a Sir" ?

Comments