Copa América

Bobeagleburger · 05-07-2015 12:19am

Arsenal 8/1 for Vidal.

He could go anywhere. I'd be surprised if he choose Arsenal over a big European powerhouse. The guy deserves to be dining at the top table.

efb · 05-07-2015 12:21am

rarnes1 wrote: »

Arsenal 8/1 for Vidal.

He could go anywhere. I'd be surprised if he choose Arsenal over a big European powerhouse. The guy deserves to be dining at the top table.

Come to Arsenal - dining at the top table since 1997!

mada999 · 05-07-2015 12:24am

Mars Bar wrote: »

Higuain misses and it's hardly a surprise

biggest bottler going...

Bobeagleburger · 05-07-2015 12:25am

efb wrote: »

Come to Arsenal - dining at the top table since 1997!

Still to win it though.

It could be considered a drop down in level going from Juventus to Arsenal. Wouldn't be a good move for him imo

Would be great for Arsenal obviously

MisterAnarchy · 05-07-2015 12:31am

SlickRic wrote: »

Credit to Chile, absolutely. I love that team. But Argentina were set up in such a disappointingly negative manner.

When you hear someone like Big Sam criticising Martino and saying that he was far too negative and direct then you know it must be true.

~Rebel~ · 05-07-2015 12:34am

efb wrote: »

Dara Ó Briain
‏@daraobriain
Alexis Sanchez does a Penanka on the final penalty, in his national stadium, to end a 99 year trophy drought. The sheer massive cojones.

What a great position to be in when stepping up - 2 penalties ahead, so no real pressure, but all the glory if you pop it away.

As an aside, when are keepers gonna stop diving by default? Seems like dead centre gives you the best chance of scoring these days.

Turtwig · 05-07-2015 12:34am

De-fcking-lighted for chile.

efb · 05-07-2015 12:36am

rarnes1 wrote: »

Still to win it though.

It could be considered a drop down in level going from Juventus to Arsenal. Wouldn't be a good move for him imo

Would be great for Arsenal obviously

Could be the missing piece of the puzzle

Arsene Wenget and the holy grail!

corny · 05-07-2015 2:39am

rarnes1 wrote: »

Arsenal 8/1 for Vidal.

He could go anywhere. I'd be surprised if he choose Arsenal over a big European powerhouse. The guy deserves to be dining at the top table.

Juventus were double winners in Italy and reached the Champions League final. He's already dining at the top table.

Despite the constant speculation Marotta has said it'll take crazy money for Juventus to let himself and Pogba leave. They've already turned down 80 million for Pogba.

LuckyLloyd · 05-07-2015 6:54am

Martino isn't the first manager Messi has failed to win an International tournament under, and won't be the last.

klose · 05-07-2015 9:15am

Lol tevez had a stormer of a season and higuain who has a reputation of being a bottler in big games still gets the nod! Mad that this group of argentinians might never win an international tournament.

ERG89 · 05-07-2015 9:24am

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Martino isn't the first manager Messi has failed to win an International tournament under, and won't be the last.

Tbh I wouldn't blame Messi for last night, he's expected to create and score for them when it matters, the other forwards seem incapable of it.
Higuain shouldn't have taken a penalty, he did the exact same thing under pressure vs. Lazio in the final day of Serie A but I thought the chance he had wasn't easy it was a bad cut across. Aguero did nothing last night , Lavezzi has been in terrible form since going to PSG. Tevez should have been brought on but I felt he wasn't wanted in the squad.
Pastore did exactly what he does in most big games too. Argentina badly needs a proper creative midfielder, heck one that could pass forward would help. They haven't had one since Riquelme retired.

inforfun · 05-07-2015 9:41am

Higuain's penalty was terrible but that last minute chance was really not an easy tap in.

It looked a bad miss so Higuain gets the criticism but Lavezzi's pass was what should be criticized.

Pinturicchio · 05-07-2015 9:48am

It's hard to understand why they didn't use Tevez more when he was coming off such a great season.

ERG89 · 05-07-2015 9:51am

inforfun wrote: »

Higuain's penalty was terrible but that last minute chance was really not an easy tap in.

It looked a bad miss so Higuain gets the criticism but Lavezzi's pass was what should be criticized.

Only way it was going in was if he hit it back across and Bravo bundled it over the line. Too tight an angle to tap it in unless there is nobody in goals

Pinturicchio wrote: »

It's hard to understand why they didn't use Tevez more when he was coming off such a great season.

Genuinely don't think they wanted to bring him but took him for the sake of it. But he should have at least been brought off the bench

LuckyLloyd · 05-07-2015 9:55am

ERG89 wrote: »

Tbh I wouldn't blame Messi for last night, he's expected to create and score for them when it matters, the other forwards seem incapable of it.
Higuain shouldn't have taken a penalty, he did the exact same thing under pressure vs. Lazio in the final day of Serie A but I thought the chance he had wasn't easy it was a bad cut across. Aguero did nothing last night , Lavezzi has been in terrible form since going to PSG. Tevez should have been brought on but I felt he wasn't wanted in the squad.
Pastore did exactly what he does in most big games too. Argentina badly needs a proper creative midfielder, heck one that could pass forward would help. They haven't had one since Riquelme retired.

Not blaming Messi. He didn't lose the match. He didn't take it by the scruff of the neck and win it either.

eagle eye · 05-07-2015 10:00am

SlickRic wrote: »

Messi wasn't great tonight by any means, but he had no hope in that system.

Long ball, lands at his feet, has 3 players on top of him. Rinse. Repeat.

To not even have the sense to play in a way that stretches Chile, but rather choose to isolate forward players as much as possible, and leave things mostly down to chance or a Messi miracle, well, it was mad to watch.

Credit to Chile, absolutely. I love that team. But Argentina were set up in such a disappointingly negative manner.

I don't know what game you were watching but the one I watched seen Messi get plenty of ball to his feet from midfield and he didn't do much.

Later on there were long balls but that happened because they weren't doing well when the ball was played low and short up to the forwards.

CSF · 05-07-2015 12:20pm

To be fair, Messi had a bad game. Big deal. He had 5 assists in the one previous. People seem too eager for both him and Ronaldo to fail.

gimmick · 05-07-2015 12:49pm

Exactly. It's not like anyone at all lit up that game. Big whoop.

Shanotheslayer · 05-07-2015 1:21pm

Bravo won everything he played in this year. Incredible Feat for himself.

Turtwig · 05-07-2015 1:26pm

Dejected Messi's gesture by allowing a chilean kid take a selfie with him was a lovely touch of class.

Talib Fiasco · 05-07-2015 1:32pm

Turtwig wrote: »

Dejected Messi's gesture by allowing a chilean kid take a selfie with him was a lovely touch of class.

Has the image actually emerged yet?

inforfun · 05-07-2015 1:35pm

Talib Fiasco wrote: »

Has the image actually emerged yet?

https://vine.co/v/e1ELVVqurBd

Turtwig · 05-07-2015 1:42pm

I think s/he meant of the faces

Talib Fiasco · 05-07-2015 2:06pm

Turtwig wrote: »

I think s/he meant of the faces

Exactly. Id love to know if Messi actually looked at the camera/was aware of it. From behind it looked as if he was completely zoned out.

inforfun · 05-07-2015 2:08pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PnFVW-YY6Do

Always when watching streams of Chilean football, this guy seems to be the commentator.

Just for him i am already happy Chile won it cause i doubt if he would have survived the pain of losing again otherwise

CSF · 05-07-2015 4:17pm

gimmick wrote: »

Exactly. It's not like anyone at all lit up that game. Big whoop.

I'd argue Vidal did but in terms of attacking flair, nope.

05-07-2015 10:22pm

CSF wrote: »

To be fair, Messi had a bad game. Big deal. He had 5 assists in the one previous. People seem too eager for both him and Ronaldo to fail.

Messi doesnt strike me to have the same pride and affection in the Argentine setup. Not questioning his patriotism or anything but at Barca he just seems at complete harmony and so in sync with his teammates. Same could be argued for Ronaldo with both club and country respectively

CSF · 05-07-2015 10:40pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Messi doesnt strike me to have the same pride and affection in the Argentine setup. Not questioning his patriotism or anything but at Barca he just seems at complete harmony and so in sync with his teammates. Same could be argued for Ronaldo with both club and country respectively

I think criticism of Messi is harsh given the 6 months he is coming off. If we'd talked about Messi after the Paraguay game we'd be saying he was having a very good Copa. He had a bad night, like most of his team to be honest. I do think Ronaldo is better suited to grab a team by the scruff of the neck and get them over the line even when things aren't going well though but that is another conversation. I mean even in that Argentina team performing the way they were last night, playing no sort of fluid football, you'd still fancy Ronaldo to pop up at the back post with a belter of a header.

But back to the original point, it isn't surprising nor a valid criticism of Messi that he would play much much better in a fluid Barcelona side playing with great players in a way that is catered to suit him, than in the Argentina side. I cant see why one would expect anything else. He got 5 assists in the game previous. Hardly unachieving and would be met with insane plaudits for any player other than Messi. No goals from open play fair enough, but he wasn't really playing up front in any case.

Andersonisgod · 06-07-2015 10:24am

For all the Messi obsessing going on here it's kinda funny that nobody has picked up on actual noteworthy stuff, that being that Messi has rejected the Cops America player of the tournament. Jorge Sampaoli (Chile's coach) is quoted as saying: " I asked Leo Messi why he refused the best player of the tournament award, he answered that he came to win a trophy with his country and that individual trophies doesn't interest him....he has my respect."
In a nutshell, that's Messi.

GLaDOS · 06-07-2015 10:32am

Andersonisgod wrote: »

For all the Messi obsessing going on here it's kinda funny that nobody has picked up on actual noteworthy stuff, that being that Messi has rejected the Cops America player of the tournament. Jorge Sampaoli (Chile's coach) is quoted as saying: " I asked Leo Messi why he refused the best player of the tournament award, he answered that he came to win a trophy with his country and that individual trophies doesn't interest him....he has my respect."
In a nutshell, that's Messi.

The obvious question is why did he accept it at the World Cup so?

Andersonisgod · 06-07-2015 10:41am

ScienceNerd wrote: »

The obvious question is why did he accept it at the World Cup so?

I can't speak for him, after all I'm not Messi but judging by the situation and his reaction it was kind of hoisted upon him, he certainly didn't look to enthused accepting it.

symbolic · 06-07-2015 11:01am

Andersonisgod wrote: »

I can't speak for him, after all I'm not Messi but judging by the situation and his reaction it was kind of hoisted upon him, he certainly didn't look to enthused accepting it.

So he literally can do no wrong. Accept. Don't accept. Legend.

Andersonisgod · 06-07-2015 11:14am

symbolic wrote: »

So he literally can do no wrong. Accept. Don't accept. Legend.

He was in a stadium with thousands of people and somebody shouting his name over a PA system, it would have been kinda tough to reject the thing.
Not sure why that matters anyway, absolutely guaranteed had Ronaldo performed the same kind of gesture (unlikely given his love of personal awards and that he'll never get one of these playing for his national team) we would never heard the end of it from certain posters on this forum. After all there was a fair bit of a love in when Ronaldo donated 5 million to charity (which was later proven to be a complete lie)

CSF · 06-07-2015 12:13pm

He clearly wasn't Player of the Tournament to be fair, so credit to him for not taking it

Edit - the actual winner would be a very controversial choice to be fair

Andersonisgod · 06-07-2015 12:54pm

CSF wrote: »

He clearly wasn't Player of the Tournament to be fair, so credit to him for not taking it

Edit - the actual winner would be a very controversial choice to be fair

Tbh I think he had a better claim for this one than the WC one. Most assists, most fouled player and most completed dribbles (infact he completed more dribbles than a lot of teams in the tournament). These things usually go to an attacking player and he was certainly one of the best there, however it really isn't saying much of worth arguing about because it was a direct tournament with practically no sparkling, attacking football. Nothing for anybody to write home about.

greendom · 06-07-2015 1:04pm

Andersonisgod wrote: »

Tbh I think he had a better claim for this one than the WC one. Most assists, most fouled player and most completed dribbles (infact he completed more dribbles than a lot of teams in the tournament). These things usually go to an attacking player and he was certainly one of the best there, however it really isn't saying much of worth arguing about because it was a direct tournament with practically no sparkling, attacking football. Nothing for anybody to write home about.

Especially as the winners were already at home.

Andersonisgod · 06-07-2015 1:13pm

greendom wrote: »

Especially as the winners were already at home.

That too but even then I didnt think Chile were as good as they were at the WC.

RasTa · 06-07-2015 1:17pm

ScienceNerd wrote: »

The obvious question is why did he accept it at the World Cup so?

lol, dig up AIG

symbolic · 06-07-2015 3:13pm

Andersonisgod wrote: »

He was in a stadium with thousands of people and somebody shouting his name over a PA system, it would have been kinda tough to reject the thing.
Not sure why that matters anyway, absolutely guaranteed had Ronaldo performed the same kind of gesture (unlikely given his love of personal awards and that he'll never get one of these playing for his national team) we would never heard the end of it from certain posters on this forum. After all there was a fair bit of a love in when Ronaldo donated 5 million to charity (which was later proven to be a complete lie)

I was just saying. It looked like you'd defend him whatever he did.

And I'm on your side of the (stupid) debate of Messi vs Ronaldo but your doing yourself no favours in this thread in my opinion.

Paully D · 06-07-2015 3:52pm

ScienceNerd wrote: »

The obvious question is why did he accept it at the World Cup so?

It was the Adidas Golden Ball at the World Cup. He's an Adidas sponsored athlete.

GLaDOS · 06-07-2015 3:58pm

Paully D wrote: »

It was the Adidas Golden Ball at the World Cup. He's an Adidas sponsored athlete.

Never considered that

Billy86 · 06-07-2015 8:46pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Messi doesnt strike me to have the same pride and affection in the Argentine setup. Not questioning his patriotism or anything but at Barca he just seems at complete harmony and so in sync with his teammates. Same could be argued for Ronaldo with both club and country respectively

To be fair, it probably has more to do with the fact that at Barca, he has been in some of (if not the) best set ups of any forward in the history of the game.

It was a good gesture for him to turn down the award, though in truth he didn't deserve it just like at the World Cup. As much as I love Messi (I would easily put him as one of the very best of all time) that is something that has always irritated me a little - the eagerness to put him on a pedestal and hand him every award possible, deserved or not, to further boost his reputation, and ignore every failing, poor performance or shortcoming of his.

For the record on it if this thread is going to descend into Messi vs. Ronaldo, I would call it a push - Messi in a possession based team, Ronaldo in a faster paced side. But the polar opposites to how their respective successes and failures are treated in the media and by many fans at large is certainly amusing at times.

Delighted Chile won it, for no other reason than I like Sanchez, love Vidal, and became a big fan of their supporters and style of play after one anthem and about their first 3.4 seconds of the World Cup last year. An utterly brilliant side to watch.

DarkyHughes · 07-07-2015 4:09am

This is almost it for Messi, he probably has one more chance to win a major trophy & there's not much in the way of great passing midfielders like Riquelme, Veron or Ortega coming through. Either is there much great defenders like Zanetti, Samuel & Ayala.
His best chance was Copa America 2007 when they were playing Barca's tiki-taka style & had such a well balanced team & a lot of names in the team like I mentioned above (Riquelme, Zanetti, Ayala, Veron) & had people like Cambiassio & Tevez at their peak.

So after the next World Cup when he doesn't win anything he'll probably become fat & bloated just like what happened to Maradona after 1990.

Kirby · 07-07-2015 7:45am

DarkyHughes wrote: »

This is almost it for Messi, he probably has one more chance to win a major trophy & there's not much in the way of great passing midfielders like Riquelme, Veron or Ortega coming through. Either is there much great defenders like Zanetti, Samuel & Ayala.
His best chance was Copa America 2007 when they were playing Barca's tiki-taka style & had such a well balanced team & a lot of names in the team like I mentioned above (Riquelme, Zanetti, Ayala, Veron) & had people like Cambiassio & Tevez at their peak.

So after the next World Cup when he doesn't win anything he'll probably become fat & bloated just like what happened to Maradona after 1990.

Messi will play for another ten years just because of who he is. Of course he'll become less effective but talk of having "one more tournament" is premature. He has buckets of time left.

LuckyLloyd · 07-07-2015 10:49am

Kirby wrote: »

Messi will play for another ten years just because of who he is. Of course he'll become less effective but talk of having "one more tournament" is premature. He has buckets of time left.

He'll turn 31 during the 2018 World Cup.
He'll turn 29 during next year's Copa and 32 during the 2019 edition.

Thereafter he'll turn 35 during the 2022 World Cup and 36 during the 2023 Copa.

He has three more chances really, and as a player who relies heavily on his acceleration and pace there are no guarantees that he can be as effective / more effective on the 2018 team given the age profile of key Argentina players around him.

ArmaniJeanss · 07-07-2015 11:04am

Olympics next year also. Whilst we don't rate it as a competition it is a big deal in most of the world. And winning it in Rio would be special.
Could even see the situation where Barcelona&Argentina agree to let him skip the out-of-sequence Copa with the Olympics being preferred.

hots · 07-07-2015 11:06am

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

Olympics next year also. Whilst we don't rate it as a competition it is a big deal in most of the world. And winning it in Rio would be special.
Could even see the situation where Barcelona&Argentina agree to let him skip the out-of-sequence Copa with the Olympics being preferred.

Messi won't be in it though will he? Under 23s plus 3 fringe senior players I thought.

ArmaniJeanss · 07-07-2015 11:13am

hots wrote: »

Messi won't be in it though will he? Under 23s plus 3 fringe senior players I thought.

There are no 'fringe' rules, anyone over 23 can be picked.
Expect to see Neymar definitely and probably Messi imo, especially as the comps timing won't be a huge clash with La Liga.

inforfun · 07-07-2015 11:19am

3 of any age can be picked.
Ibrahimovic wants to join Sweden at the olympics too.

Copa América

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