Tenant Refusing To Pay Rent * MOD WARNING IN POST #1 *

WhyTheFace · 14-01-2021 8:34am #1

Hi,

I have a tenant who has refused to pay rent and is abusing the fact that I can't evict him due to emergency Covid rules on eviction.

He hasn't applied for HAP, I presume because he would not be eligible.

Is there anything at all that can be done?

I use an agent to deal with him but they are useless enough in general.

Thanks

Mod Warning

Any suggestions of illegal actions/eviction will result in an infraction/ban without warning.

14-01-2021 8:39am

I presume you have issued a notice of arrears and opened a dispute with the RTB? Get the groundwork done for immediate notice of eviction when restrictions lifted.

And if you can get a good price, sell.

costacorta · 14-01-2021 9:31am

Contact all the SF and PBP TDs , They are the ones who encourage non payments of rent as according to them nobody should be evicted from a property.

14-01-2021 10:02am

costacorta wrote: »

Contact all the SF and PBP TDs , They are the ones who encourage non payments of rent as according to them nobody should be evicted from a property.

Expect them to smile smugly when you do that.

ED E · 14-01-2021 10:05am

WhyTheFace wrote: »

Is there anything at all that can be done?

Bend over and take it for the next 18-24 months.

DubCount · 14-01-2021 10:38am

OP. Sadly there is not a lot you can do. If you evict the tenant illegally, you face a massive fine from the RTB, and the tenancy being re-instated. Your only legal option is to seek a legal eviction via the RTB (and then the courts when that is finished). Maybe speak to a solicitor to make sure you cant start the RTB process immediately. When you finally manage to evict this tenant (and eventually you will), you can bring them to court for the amount they owe you, and the court order will be so meaningless it wont be worth your while. One possibility might be to negotiate an exit with your tenant where you pay them to leave - though that is a dangerous track to take - again talk to a solicitor.

Anyone wondering why Landlords are selling up while rents are at record high levels - read this thread.

Anyone considering being a landlord - read this thread.

Anyone seeking a ban on evictions..... you get the idea.

Blanco100 · 14-01-2021 10:42am

What happens if you need to evict someone because you need to move into the house yourself with your own family?

DubCount · 14-01-2021 10:56am

Blanco100 wrote: »

What happens if you need to evict someone because you need to move into the house yourself with your own family?

Simple - you become homeless while your non-paying tenant stays in the house you are paying a mortgage on.

Padre_Pio · 14-01-2021 10:59am

Dav010 wrote: »

I presume you have issued a notice of arrears and opened a dispute with the RTB? Get the groundwork done for immediate notice of eviction when restrictions lifted.

And if you can get a good price, sell.

Tenant eviction restrictions are lifted on the 10th Feb:

In October 2020, an eviction ban was introduced for any period when people’s movement is restricted to 5 kilometres from their home as part of COVID-19 restrictions. This means that tenants cannot be evicted when the country is at Level 5 of COVID-19 restrictions from 31 December 2020 to 31 January 2021 and for a ten-day grace period after this.

It would take longer than this to give notice etc, so just start the process and carry out the eviction after that date.

fliball123 · 14-01-2021 11:13am

move in there and walk around naked. I put put fish in the curtains , turn off the water and cut the electricity. I would make it as uncomfortable as possible for them and see how they like it. No water, no elecy, smells like helll and a naked dude in the kitchen. See how long they last

dalyboy · 14-01-2021 11:19am

WhyTheFace wrote: »

Hi,

I have a tenant who has refused to pay rent and is abusing the fact that I can't evict him due to emergency Covid rules on eviction.

He hasn't applied for HAP, I presume because he would not be eligible.

Is there anything at all that can be done?

I use an agent to deal with him but they are useless enough in general.

Thanks

Is your agent taking any responsibility for your situation? (Was it the agent that vetted the tenant in the 1st place ?)

flazio · 14-01-2021 11:20am

I'd need to know more about the tenant's situation before I would pass opinion/judgement. You say you assume he can't get HAP. Don't just assume. Know.
A lot of grief can be avoided if both parties just opened their mouths and talked.

the_pen_turner · 14-01-2021 11:25am

flazio wrote: »

I'd need to know more about the tenant's situation before I would pass opinion/judgement. You say you assume he can't get HAP. Don't just assume. Know.
A lot of grief can be avoided if both parties just opened their mouths and talked.

Can you give one example of a situation that would excuse the tenant from paying rent.

dalyboy · 14-01-2021 11:26am

fliball123 wrote: »

move in there and walk around naked. I put put fish in the curtains , turn off the water and cut the electricity. I would make it as uncomfortable as possible for them and see how they like it. No water, no elecy, smells like helll and a naked dude in the kitchen. See how long they last

The bit in bold.
Tenant has the rights. Welcome to good ole Ireland.

fliball123 · 14-01-2021 11:29am

dalyboy wrote: »

The bit in bold.
Tenant has the rights. Welcome to good ole Ireland.

True well I would go about cutting the elecy and water at the very least. I would be getting stink bombs and throwing them in the letter box. Anything that makes this tenants life as difficult as possible. I would be calling around at 3 in the morning every morning and knocking on the door and then they come down asking for the rent. I would come back at 4 then 5 and just keep going till you exhaust them. They wont have any come back from the PRTB as they are not paying the rent.

WhyTheFace · 14-01-2021 11:29am

OP here.

The agent in general has been pretty useless.

He had stopped paying before Xmas and was told we were seeking eviction, then he agreed to pay weekly. He paid one week over xmas then stopped.

I agree with a comment above about opening dialogue directly.

He told the agent he is going through a divorce in Poland which is using up his money which is possibly bullsh1t but irrelevant none the less.

Mrs OBumble · 14-01-2021 11:34am

Get all the legal steps in place, for sure.

But also offer him cash to move out. It sucks. But its cheapesr in the long run than to be 18+ months without rent.

PalLimerick · 14-01-2021 11:46am

fliball123 wrote: »

True well I would go about cutting the elecy and water at the very least. I would be getting stink bombs and throwing them in the letter box. Anything that makes this tenants life as difficult as possible. I would be calling around at 3 in the morning every morning and knocking on the door and then they come down asking for the rent. I would come back at 4 then 5 and just keep going till you exhaust them. They wont have any come back from the PRTB as they are not paying the rent.

Then you would be done for harrasment. And you'd have no authority to cut off water or electricity.

Zamboni · 14-01-2021 11:52am

Offer him a big envelope of cash in exchange for a signature to voluntarily end the lease, all his stuff out and the return of keys.
Meet him in a public spot with cctv.

The cash offer should be big enough that he cannot refuse and it will be still smaller then what this will eventually cost you in lost rent and legal fees anyway.

Then go and change the locks, suck it up and get on with your life.

fliball123 · 14-01-2021 11:54am

PalLimerick wrote: »

Then you would be done for harrasment. And you'd have no authority to cut off water or electricity.

I would get a plumber in on the QT and play dumb, get a sparks in and do the same. A lot of this can be done from outside the property.

Padre_Pio · 14-01-2021 11:58am

fliball123 wrote: »

True well I would go about cutting the elecy and water at the very least. I would be getting stink bombs and throwing them in the letter box. Anything that makes this tenants life as difficult as possible. I would be calling around at 3 in the morning every morning and knocking on the door and then they come down asking for the rent. I would come back at 4 then 5 and just keep going till you exhaust them. They wont have any come back from the PRTB as they are not paying the rent.

Sure ya would:rolleyes::rolleyes:
When are you back to school?

dalyboy · 14-01-2021 11:59am

Zamboni wrote: »

Offer him a big envelope of cash in exchange for a signature to voluntarily end the lease, all his stuff out and the return of keys.
Meet him in a public spot with cctv.

The cash offer should be big enough that he cannot refuse and it will be still smaller then what this will eventually cost you in lost rent and legal fees anyway.

Then go and change the locks, suck it up and get on with your life.

If landlords make a habit of paying off non-paying tenants it’ll create one hell of a bad precedence. Shake downs will become common place

fliball123 · 14-01-2021 12:00pm

Padre_Pio wrote: »

Sure ya would:rolleyes::rolleyes:
When are you back to school?

same day as your ma

Graham · 14-01-2021 12:03pm

Mod Note

fliball123, thread banned. Do not post in this thread again.

WhyTheFace · 14-01-2021 12:07pm

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Get all the legal steps in place, for sure.

But also offer him cash to move out. It sucks. But its cheapesr in the long run than to be 18+ months without rent.

Why 18 months?

Would it not be 5-6 weeks after the eviction ban has been lifted assuming we act asap?

spaceHopper · 14-01-2021 12:07pm

If he's engaging with you then work with him but make it clear that you will have to evict him if he messes you about. If he's working he pays, if he's getting divorced he still has to be able to pay his bill no court is going to make him homeless for his ex that would be counterproductive.

Don't do this on your own there are template form on the RTB site but one mistake and you could be in trouble use a solicitor.

Don't do anything heavy handed, he could seek compensation or simply trash the place and vanish.

I manage a place for my mother, it was my dad's till he passed away. As soon a the pandemic hit two of the tenants lost their jobs, I worked with them to apply for rent allowance, I was expecting HAP but SW steered towards rent allowance. One got it one didn't for some reason (it may have been resolved), neither of them have missed a rent payment or messed me about. Both are back working.

Pinoy adventure · 14-01-2021 12:10pm

Op what a pain in the rear.
Speak with them directly

Evd-Burner · 14-01-2021 12:23pm

Zamboni wrote: »

Offer him a big envelope of cash in exchange for a signature to voluntarily end the lease, all his stuff out and the return of keys.
Meet him in a public spot with cctv.

The cash offer should be big enough that he cannot refuse and it will be still smaller then what this will eventually cost you in lost rent and legal fees anyway.

Then go and change the locks, suck it up and get on with your life.

This here I think is the best option to get it done and over with as soon as you can without it costing you 10s of thousands.

DubCount · 14-01-2021 12:54pm

WhyTheFace wrote: »

Why 18 months?

Would it not be 5-6 weeks after the eviction ban has been lifted assuming we act asap?

The eviction notice you issue is likely to be ignored. After that you need to lodge a case with the RTB. They will set a date. Your tenant will be washing their hair that date. You get another date. You win the case. Your tenant appeals. You get another date. Your tenant is washing hair again. You get another date. You win the appeal. You then bring a court case for an eviction. You wait for a court date. You win the court case and get a court order which will not be immediate but will have a notice period. You then engage the bailiffs to actually evict the tenant and hopefully they wont have wrecked the place in the mean time.

End to end if you have a tenant who plays the system - 18 months is not far off.

tvjunki · 14-01-2021 11:11pm

Tenants that loose their jobs as a result of covid are moved to rent allowance as it is used for short term not long term as with Hap.

Non payment of rent and delay is why many landlords are leaving in droves. This dogooders give incorrect information and tenant think they can stay without consequences.

Due to covid there is now a 10 stage for this situation. Crazy I know but you could end up paying a fine and then compensation to the non paying tenant.You can give you tenant notice warning of non payments. The clock starts from the 10th jan so you can give notice now. Have a read of the following link and use the templates on the website. Go back through your records and if the tenant needed something repaired that you got done to show you are a good landlord.

https://www.rtb.ie/emergency-measures-ended-new-protections-introduced-for-the-rental-sector/dealing-with-rent-arrears-after-the-emergency-period

Rtb have stated if a tenant stops paying rent, you have to complete a self declaration giving details why you cannot support the non paying tenant. Register your complaint as soon as possible and complete your self declaration before your tenant does. Supposedly to speed up the process.
Keep records of all communications. Make sure you use swift post postal service, or note from post office that you posted the letter with warning of late rent to your tenant or you take a picture of putting the letter in the letter box.

Just to prepare you If you agree to take part payments your tenant will mess you around and you will have to start the whole process all over agin.
Have a solicitor that has been through the Rtb process to hand.

Your agent has not done you any favours. Put your complaint in writing and ask why they have not contacted the tenant. You need to contact them and tell them you are paying a fee to them to provide a service they arse not doing. If they are connected to a body like Ipav. They would not want a complaint due to a risk of a fine or removal of registration.

Wish you luck with this.

Mad_maxx · 14-01-2021 11:29pm

costacorta wrote: »

Contact all the SF and PBP TDs , They are the ones who encourage non payments of rent as according to them nobody should be evicted from a property.

what for ? , a laugh

you do realise that PBP object to the very concept of private property , never mind the renting out of property for profit

Mad_maxx · 14-01-2021 11:34pm

Zamboni wrote: »

Offer him a big envelope of cash in exchange for a signature to voluntarily end the lease, all his stuff out and the return of keys.
Meet him in a public spot with cctv.

The cash offer should be big enough that he cannot refuse and it will be still smaller then what this will eventually cost you in lost rent and legal fees anyway.

Then go and change the locks, suck it up and get on with your life.

probably needs to considering paying a bribe of at least 5 k and possibly 10 k , eviction process will cost most landlords the guts of 20 k in lost income so 10 k would be relatively cheap

Mrs OBumble · 15-01-2021 1:54am

dalyboy wrote: »

If landlords make a habit of paying off non-paying tenants it’ll create one hell of a bad precedence. Shake downs will become common place

It already happens. Nothing new. Professional landlord know what they have to do to get their properties back in good shape.

Spanish Eyes · 15-01-2021 2:03am

If agents/landlords had an insurance scheme where if a tenant doesn’t pay, the landlord is reimbursed... it might help matters.

It is in place in France for example. Landlord pays the premium, but gives peace of mind.

The eviction process carries on in parallel.

B.A._Baracus · 15-01-2021 2:51am

DubCount wrote: »

OP. Sadly there is not a lot you can do. If you evict the tenant illegally, you face a massive fine from the RTB, and the tenancy being re-instated. Your only legal option is to seek a legal eviction via the RTB (and then the courts when that is finished). Maybe speak to a solicitor to make sure you cant start the RTB process immediately. When you finally manage to evict this tenant (and eventually you will), you can bring them to court for the amount they owe you, and the court order will be so meaningless it wont be worth your while. One possibility might be to negotiate an exit with your tenant where you pay them to leave - though that is a dangerous track to take - again talk to a solicitor.

Anyone wondering why Landlords are selling up while rents are at record high levels - read this thread.

Anyone considering being a landlord - read this thread.

Anyone seeking a ban on evictions..... you get the idea.

Actually on that subject, am curious... If a landlord sold up wouldn't the new buyer have the same issue of trying to get the tennant out because of covid?
Of course not that the landlord would care.

beauf · 15-01-2021 3:21am

B.A._Baracus wrote: »

Actually on that subject, am curious... If a landlord sold up wouldn't the new buyer have the same issue of trying to get the tennant out because of covid?

Yes. But it wouldn't be the original LL problem anymore.

15-01-2021 4:07am

beauf wrote: »

if you "care" why not offer to pay this tenants rent for them. Indefinitely.

I don't think B.A means it the way you took it up. I think he means the landlord wouldn't care once the property had been sold (ie; not his issue anymore).

OP I don't know how much truth there is to this, or where you stand legally, but I know a landlord to make small talk with, and he said he had a non-paying tenant before. When I asked what he did to deal with the situation, he told me that the front door got damaged, so he took it away to be repaired.

y0ssar1an22 · 15-01-2021 4:11am

change the wifi password if in your name.

is the landlord required to cut the grass and tend the hedges? if so, and if there is a garden, tend away to your garden early on a sat or sunday. although, maybe dont do that. if they dont pay, they will happily not not ruin.

aside from that; OP, i can only sympathise.

give notice in line with the current guidance. keep a track of everything. possibly down the line the gov might make good on your lost money (i think they will), cos someone will take a case eventually.

****ing disgraceful that this is even a topic.

beauf · 15-01-2021 4:15am

Maybe. My bad if so.

These days. There is nothing a LL can do except follow the legal process. All these half baked "solutions" will just get you a large fine and you have to put the tenant back in.

whippet · 15-01-2021 12:40pm

I was that hero 10 years ago and quickly realised that I didn’t have any options apart from the long drawn out RTB process all the while I wasn’t getting a penny in rent and my house was getting destroyed.

I considered all of the half baked ideas that people are mentioning - but the realisation that the tenants were being supported by ‘activists’ who were waiting for me to make one wrong move that would give them a payday.

Fortunately as one of the people living in the house was a distributor of pharmaceutical products that were not on the HSE approved list .. the heat on the property became a little hot to handle and they disappeared one weekend - leaving behind a shell of a destroyed property - about €5k of my money was needed to make it habitual again.

They owed about €6k in rent on top of that.

At one stage they wanted €10k to leave - but would take €7.5k if I paid in cash.

The house was promptly sold and I’d never ever consider being a landlord again

tommyombomb · 15-01-2021 12:42pm

Could you contact their employer to look for payment directly.

Claw Hammer · 15-01-2021 1:51pm

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

If agents/landlords had an insurance scheme where if a tenant doesn’t pay, the landlord is reimbursed... it might help matters.

It is in place in France for example. Landlord pays the premium, but gives peace of mind.

The eviction process carries on in parallel.

That would be ok if defaulting tenants could be removed reasonably efficiently. A well-informed tenant could keep the matter going for years.

Claw Hammer · 15-01-2021 1:52pm

tommyombomb wrote: »

Could you contact their employer to look for payment directly.

What has the employer got to do with it? The employer can't deduct anything from the salary without the written consent of the employee.

djr15 · 15-01-2021 2:10pm

Arrange to pay him to leave.

Once all his stuff is out, meet, don't pay and have the locks changed.

Fight fire with fire.

jetfiremuck · 15-01-2021 2:10pm

The well nourished minister for Housing as usual is not living in the real world. Im betting that the eviction ban will continue until after after paddys day. The Rtb etc are backed up and with the current state of affairs evictions will be another RTE ,PBP,Sf wolf whistle.

PO!NT · 15-01-2021 2:12pm

What is the responsibility of the Agent when SHTF.

Mrs OBumble · 15-01-2021 2:21pm

Claw Hammer wrote: »

What has the employer got to do with it? The employer can't deduct anything from the salary without the written consent of the employee.

And unless you thought to put this into your original tenancy agreement, the tenant can also do you for a GDPR breach.

Mrs OBumble · 15-01-2021 2:22pm

djr15 wrote: »

Arrange to pay him to leave.

Once all his stuff is out, meet, don't pay and have the locks changed.

Fight fire with fire.

Unfortunately type of tenant who would do this in the first place is likely to fight back with fire - literally.

beauf · 15-01-2021 2:23pm

PO!NT wrote: »

What is the responsibility of the Agent when SHTF.

Depends on the agent.

djr15 · 15-01-2021 2:28pm

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Unfortunately type of tenant who would do this in the first place is likely to fight back with fire - literally.

In that case best do nothing about it and just bust out crying....?!?!

Seriously though, it seems this "tenant" has no intention of paying.

many ppl saying to pay him to leave...
Ye must be having a laugh.

As long as you do nothing illegal he has no comback, cutting your losses is one thing but making them worse by paying him to go is another...

L1011 · 15-01-2021 2:34pm

djr15 wrote: »

Arrange to pay him to leave.

Once all his stuff is out, meet, don't pay and have the locks changed.

Fight fire with fire.

This would be considered an illegal eviction

This thread has multiple posters suggesting various levels of illegal approaches and there have already been warnings.

The next person to suggest something illegal is going to get a ban

Tenant Refusing To Pay Rent * MOD WARNING IN POST #1 *

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