School Discipline

Bobtheman · 29-06-2020 1:43pm #1

I recall this issue was big around the early years of this century(God I'm getting old) but seemed to have died a death since. I think some sort of behaviour support service was set up and it did or does offer Supports but Only to a small cohort of schools.
Since then it is clearly off the main Political agenda, but things have hardly improved in schools behaviour wise. Yes DEIS schools got some extra supports, but the core issues remain.
There is a sizeable minority in schools that cause mayhem daily. They make it difficult to nearly impossible to teach at times.
Some of the initiatives are designed to keep kids in schools-home school liaison which on the one hand is positive, but on the other hand, no support is provided to teachers in classrooms. Bar the odd SNA.

In my school, discipline is not terrible. The MGT are supportive, but they haven't done much in the way of innovation. It's pretty much the same system since I started teaching there 25 years ago. The new posts haven't helped. Most are writing bull**** reports.
I have no quick solutions. I'm planning on trying to get it back on the agenda. Not sure how

Fleetwoodmac · 29-06-2020 2:13pm

I would imagine in the majority of cases a solitary school approach will lead to temporary improvements in the short term. What is needed realistically is a cohesive holistic approach where the programme can be implemented within all environments and therein may lie the issue. It would require joined up thinking and a working relationship between say HSE ( social work psycology), dept of ed and NEPs, and of course the child's family and where applicable Barnardos and TUSLA etc etc... short of an annual meeting, these organisations working on the one approach with regular check ins is rare. Applying an approach in one area of the child's life in the absence of supporting other areas is simply putting on a band aid.
My experience having parented several teenagers and short term fostering is that some schools response is reactive, does not recognise where the child is at in terms of emotional needs and views the behaviour as random rather than examining the message behind it. Repeated suspensions only serves to remove the issue temporarily, it is not helpful to anyone and I would an audit of school suspension records would illustrate how ineffective such an approach is. Other schools have been commendable in shifting their understanding to really exploring the causes behind the behaviour, placing less emphasis on curriculum and getting that crucial piece of child development, which is a child will only learn if they are emotionally in a good place.
On saying that, I see that teachers are in an almost impossible position in the absence of support from aforementioned agencies. I can imagine how draining and relentless this position can be.

lulublue22 · 29-06-2020 2:54pm

Fleetwoodmac wrote: »

I would imagine in the majority of cases a solitary school approach will lead to temporary improvements in the short term. What is needed realistically is a cohesive holistic approach where the programme can be implemented within all environments and therein may lie the issue. It would require joined up thinking and a working relationship between say HSE ( social work psycology), dept of ed and NEPs, and of course the child's family and where applicable Barnardos and TUSLA etc etc... short of an annual meeting, these organisations working on the one approach with regular check ins is rare. Applying an approach in one area of the child's life in the absence of supporting other areas is simply putting on a band aid.
My experience having parented several teenagers and short term fostering is that some schools response is reactive, does not recognise where the child is at in terms of emotional needs and views the behaviour as random rather than examining the message behind it. Repeated suspensions only serves to remove the issue temporarily, it is not helpful to anyone and I would an audit of school suspension records would illustrate how ineffective such an approach is. Other schools have been commendable in shifting their understanding to really exploring the causes behind the behaviour, placing less emphasis on curriculum and getting that crucial piece of child development, which is a child will only learn if they are emotionally in a good place.
On saying that, I see that teachers are in an almost impossible position in the absence of support from aforementioned agencies. I can imagine how draining and relentless this position can be.

Just in relation to the repeated suspensions not helping anyone - I agree it may not be effective for the child in question in the long term. However it certainly helps the other children in the class who are rarely if ever considered in the situation. All children have a right to a stress free school environment. I have taught in a school which had a high level of EBD. Throwing furniture / threatening staff and peers etc. The school is tied - there is little to no support from outside agencies and supports / resources for the child and his / her peers who are adversely affected by the behaviour is simply not there. EBD as an additional need is simply not prioritised by the dep. It’s also very hard on staff. I’m in a different school now whose version of behaviour is very different and I can honestly say my health and wellbeing is much improved.

Fleetwoodmac · 29-06-2020 3:11pm

lulublue22 wrote: »

Just in relation to the repeated suspensions not helping anyone - I agree it may not be effective for the child in question in the long term. However it certainly helps the other children in the class who are rarely if ever considered in the situation. All children have a right to a stress free school environment. I have taught in a school which had a high level of EBD. Throwing furniture / threatening staff and peers etc. The school is tied - there is little to no support from outside agencies and supports / resources for the child and his / her peers who are adversely affected by the behaviour is simply not there. EBD as an additional need is simply not prioritised by the dep. It’s also very hard on staff. I’m in a different school now whose version of behaviour is very different and I can honestly say my health and wellbeing is much improved.

Without a doubt I see the disruption such behaviour causes to other pupils and indeed the school as a whole. In that scenario, it is warranted. But it needs to be followed up with a examination of why it is repeatedly occurring. Behaviour is never random. In the absence of such an exploration, the schools response will always be reactive. I have however observed repeated suspensions for far less disruptive behaviours and my experiences of the children I've had who were repeatedly suspended was never due to behaviours you have mentioned. EBD can be diagnosed and suggested and a child labelled without ever examining why the child is presenting as such and this is not conducive to a whole child approach.

I can imagine the reduction in stress when you've changed school environments. It isn't an easy career and the approach can never be a one size fits all. The OP has put forward a question that is valid and worthy of discussion and it is as one child differs from another, there is no one answer. But it is our duty as the adult to truly examine it from the child's perspective, in refusing to do so, we will never get to the nub of the issue.

spurious · 29-06-2020 3:31pm

The 'one size fits all' nature of the current Irish educational system doesn't help.

lulublue22 · 29-06-2020 3:52pm

Fleetwoodmac wrote: »

Without a doubt I see the disruption such behaviour causes to other pupils and indeed the school as a whole. In that scenario, it is warranted. But it needs to be followed up with a examination of why it is repeatedly occurring. Behaviour is never random. In the absence of such an exploration, the schools response will always be reactive. I have however observed repeated suspensions for far less disruptive behaviours and my experiences of the children I've had who were repeatedly suspended was never due to behaviours you have mentioned. EBD can be diagnosed and suggested and a child labelled without ever examining why the child is presenting as such and this is not conducive to a whole child approach.

I can imagine the reduction in stress when you've changed school environments. It isn't an easy career and the approach can never be a one size fits all. The OP has put forward a question that is valid and worthy of discussion and it is as one child differs from another, there is no one answer. But it is our duty as the adult to truly examine it from the child's perspective, in refusing to do so, we will never get to the nub of the issue.

I agree with you in relation to all behaviour has a reason/ underlying cause but the education system at present isnt set up to effectively deal with the level of behaviour in certain schools. I really enjoyed my time in that school I learned loads - but it was not sustainable long term.
I have several issues with behaviour not being addressed - it is the biggest impediment to teaching and learning - not only for the child in question but also for every child in that class - who didnt ask nor have any control over spending 5 hours and 40 mins a day for 183 days a year in a class with extremely distressing behavior. Class sizes are too big and staffing is an issue in relation to behavior. Outside support from mental health agencies is extremely difficult to access and when accessed practical solutions are in short supply.
Parental support is also an issue both - parents receiving the support they need or parents not being supportive in tackling the behaviour( the latter is usually when behaviour is at the lower end of the scale)

Continuity of staff is also an issue when parents / children are trying to access outside support.

I feel very sorry for parents / children with behavioural issues and to be fair schools as there is little or no practical support available.

Bobtheman · 29-06-2020 4:00pm

Fleetwoodmac wrote: »

I would imagine in the majority of cases a solitary school approach will lead to temporary improvements in the short term. What is needed realistically is a cohesive holistic approach where the programme can be implemented within all environments and therein may lie the issue. It would require joined up thinking and a working relationship between say HSE ( social work psycology), dept of ed and NEPs, and of course the child's family and where applicable Barnardos and TUSLA etc etc... short of an annual meeting, these organisations working on the one approach with regular check ins is rare. Applying an approach in one area of the child's life in the absence of supporting other areas is simply putting on a band aid.
My experience having parented several teenagers and short term fostering is that some schools response is reactive, does not recognise where the child is at in terms of emotional needs and views the behaviour as random rather than examining the message behind it. Repeated suspensions only serves to remove the issue temporarily, it is not helpful to anyone and I would an audit of school suspension records would illustrate how ineffective such an approach is. Other schools have been commendable in shifting their understanding to really exploring the causes behind the behaviour, placing less emphasis on curriculum and getting that crucial piece of child development, which is a child will only learn if they are emotionally in a good place.
On saying that, I see that teachers are in an almost impossible position in the absence of support from aforementioned agencies. I can imagine how draining and relentless this position can be.

I appreciate your input but we have a nation where 500 kids don't have social workers . However I know home school liason does help but in the end if a student consistently wrecks a classroom in terms of not letting others be educated - what's to be done? At times suspension gives the others a break. I have often breathed a sigh of relief at a suspension.
Ultimately the state must fund small classrooms within or outside school where these kids can be educated.
But failing that what's the solution?
I think most decent schools explore the reasons but sad to say it's often poor parenting or social inequality. Schools can only compensate for di much.

Fleetwoodmac · 29-06-2020 4:15pm

Bobtheman wrote: »

I appreciate your input but we have a nation where 500 kids don't have social workers . However I know home school liason does help but in the end if a student consistently wrecks a classroom in terms of not letting others be educated - what's to be done? At times suspension gives the others a break. I have often breathed a sigh of relief at a suspension.
Ultimately the state must fund small classrooms within or outside school where these kids can be educated.
But failing that what's the solution?
I think most decent schools explore the reasons but sad to say it's often poor parenting or social inequality. Schools can only compensate for di much.

I have acknowledged that.. there is an utter lack of resouces, no one can dispute that. And you would not be human if you didn't breathe a sigh of relief but your initial post suggested you wanted a discussion on discipline in schools yes? The reality is a child acting out to that degree will equally breathe a sigh of relief at having been removed from an environment which is either difficult or unpleasant and so, in both the short term planning of ALL agencies the immediate reward is met... child removed and in an indirect way "rewarded" and so the cycle continues.

Sadly the long term result and we all know this, is if poor parenting or social inequality is present, educational exclusion only serves to perpetuate this inequality and again, the cycle continues.
As I said before, there are no easy answers.

Fleetwoodmac · 29-06-2020 4:27pm

lulublue22 wrote: »

I agree with you in relation to all behaviour has a reason/ underlying cause but the education system at present isnt set up to effectively deal with the level of behaviour in certain schools. I really enjoyed my time in that school I learned loads - but it was not sustainable long term.
I have several issues with behaviour not being addressed - it is the biggest impediment to teaching and learning - not only for the child in question but also for every child in that class - who didnt ask nor have any control over spending 5 hours and 40 mins a day for 183 days a year in a class with extremely distressing behavior. Class sizes are too big and staffing is an issue in relation to behavior. Outside support from mental health agencies is extremely difficult to access and when accessed practical solutions are in short supply. To give you an example I have taught some lovely children with very poor behaviour - I had a meeting with a number of outside agencies present re one child. one agency based on providing mental health services to children -kept getting the childs name wrong and basically said well the behaviour is only since x time - basically it was the schools fault . She had to be corrected by another agency who said em no this behaviour predates this placement by about 4 years . I kind you not. It was embarrassing not that it took a tack out of her. That was her total contribution to the meeting.
Parental support is also an issue both - parents receiving the support they need or parents not being supportive in tackling the behaviour( the latter is usually when behaviour is at the lower end of the scale)

Continuity of staff is also an issue when parents / children are trying to access outside support.

I feel very sorry for parents / children with behavioural issues and to be fair schools as there is little or no practical support available.

Appalling that someone should come to a meeting so ill prepared and hugely deflating for those of you who had worked for it. And sadly it is the child who suffers. Fortunately I've met teachers who have worked miracles and found a way to "get" to the child and found the child's strength, no matter how insignificant it may have been, recognising that a single kind word may sustain that child for days, when emotional neglect or sheer apathy in the home was his experience. I may well be shot down for this, but too much emphasis is placed on a child's response to the curriculum when we need to look at well being as a whole. As no adult will function well at work if stressed or coping with a difficult home, so too no child will learn if they have other variables impacting on their emotional well being. I am not critiquing teachers I am suggesting the system in general needs reconsidering to truly get to the nub of the issue and that requires an all society ll agency approach which is perhaps idealistic and some may say naive.

Mardy Bum · 29-06-2020 4:59pm

The most problematic issue in Irish schools with regard to behaviour is an inconsistent approach by staff and management to low level disruption which makes all policies meaningless.

Reasons for this include new staff not being trained properly. Older staff members doing what they like. Poor middle leaders who prioritise other things over discipline. Senior leaders being afraid of the repercussions of punishing low level behaviour properly. No training in the area at all for teachers at all levels and the DES's dereliction of duty in this area.

What you permit, you promote.

The only way to measure a school's success in the area of discipline is to put a substitute teacher who is well versed in the code of conduct into a class and see what happens.

lulublue22 · 29-06-2020 5:21pm

Fleetwoodmac wrote: »

Appalling that someone should come to a meeting so ill prepared and hugely deflating for those of you who had worked for it. And sadly it is the child who suffers. Fortunately I've met teachers who have worked miracles and found a way to "get" to the child and found the child's strength, no matter how insignificant it may have been, recognising that a single kind word may sustain that child for days, when emotional neglect or sheer apathy in the home was his experience. I may well be shot down for this, but too much emphasis is placed on a child's response to the curriculum when we need to look at well being as a whole. As no adult will function well at work if stressed or coping with a difficult home, so too no child will learn if they have other variables impacting on their emotional well being. I am not critiquing teachers I am suggesting the system in general needs reconsidering to truly get to the nub of the issue and that requires an all society ll agency approach which is perhaps idealistic and some may say naive.

I think spurious sums it up perfectly - One size fits all education system which works for a large percentage but unfortunately not all. The difficulty with less focus on the curriculum is that in general children with behavioural issues are in mainstream classes with up to 30 other children who have a right to access a full curriculum.
There has been a move away from specialised education ( all over the world ) to a more inclusive model - where all children irrespective of needs can be accommodated within mainstream education. This has been very beneficial for a lot of children but there are a number of children who fall through the cracks. Im not suggesting a return to specialised education but if inclusion is too work properly it must be adequately resourced. Class size is a very obvious issue. Behavioural Units attached to mainstream classes similar to ASD units may be of benefit. Quicker and easier access to support agencies needs to be a given. Possibly a differentiated curriculum with a focus on interspersing core subjects with more hands on practical subjects. Reduced class time if necessary - there is no point in a child being in school for a full day if they are not able. Consistency is the key - shorter day build up relationships no stress. Children can only learn if they are in the space to learn.

Bobtheman · 30-06-2020 9:22am

Fleetwoodmac wrote: »

I have acknowledged that.. there is an utter lack of resouces, no one can dispute that. And you would not be human if you didn't breathe a sigh of relief but your initial post suggested you wanted a discussion on discipline in schools yes? The reality is a child acting out to that degree will equally breathe a sigh of relief at having been removed from an environment which is either difficult or unpleasant and so, in both the short term planning of ALL agencies the immediate reward is met... child removed and in an indirect way "rewarded" and so the cycle continues.

Sadly the long term result and we all know this, is if poor parenting or social inequality is present, educational exclusion only serves to perpetuate this inequality and again, the cycle continues.
As I said before, there are no easy answers.

Your points are well put. At times though a student decides to be patently difficult. He or she suffer from no real social disadvantage except a lack of consequences.
It is also the case particularly after 16 that the student should not be in school as they intend doing a trade or something non academic. Thus we simply baby sit them. They know dam well what they are doing- acting up. I'd be a bit wary of removing all agency from a student A lot of Students can hide behind labels or even social disadvantage. They are not totally devoid of free will.

spurious · 30-06-2020 12:43pm

I taught (almost exclusively) the 'difficult' students in an inner city schools. ("Oh, but you're so good with them". Yes, indeed.)
Many of my past pupils are no strangers to newspaper coverage, sadly not always for positive things.

However, it was a very rare child who caused trouble in every single class. They all had something that interested them. It might not have been what many people would want their children to aspire to, but then we would be in trouble a lot quicker without bin men than without lawyers. Any child who wants to go to further ed. should of course be facilitated and encouraged to do so, but not all do and they are the group I think are being failed by our current system.

I will give one of my stories about one particular guy.

He was quite probably affected by drink and drugs in utero, so didn't get off to a great start, but he was honest, polite, came in every day, on time, in uniform and tried as best he could with subjects he didn't understand and wasn't interested in. His reading levels were very low and his concentration span for most things was poor. One Friday I had very few of his class back, so we had a chat about work/the job they would love to get etc.. Now this lad wanted to work, people in his family worked, albeit in minimum wage jobs, but he didn't want to 'just be on the labour'. College was not an option, he wanted to get out and work after the Junior.

Some of the class were still in the 'I want to play for United'/'be a pop star' stage, but he had clearly thought about it and wanted (as he put it) to be 'the man in the community centre who keeps it clean and changes the light bulbs'. Now, he could have done that job. He might have needed a little assistance with things like ordering materials etc., but the guts of the job, he could have done. It would have been his dream job, he would have had standing in the community, he would have kept the place like a new pin, had his few pints at the end of each week and his holiday in the sun.

In the school we already had an unofficial class going where about six students would be taken under the wing of an older male teacher and he would teach them things like how to correctly measure a window pane that needed replacement, how to wire plugs, a small bit of tiling, bicycle repair etc., painting and decorating techniques, along with general life skills like how to speak to people in a non-aggressive way. They loved it and they fought (not literally) over the places in his class. There was no trouble in his classes and the classes they had been withdrawn from were able to operate without major disruption.

Horror of horrors though, they were missing Science/History/Irish/foreign language/whatever so couldn't be boxed somewhere for the Department. What subject were they doing with this teacher? Where was the syllabus? What exam were they going to sit?

Sigh.

So, of course, it came to an end, the lads flittered away shortly after JC, unable to cope with TY, which from their point of view, was way too unstructured and 'full of stupid stuff'. The well-intentioned mixing of ability levels in the TY classes did nothing for their self esteem, so away they went again with the disruptive behaviour. Not for them the TY access to the MiniMed programmes in the Rotunda or RCSI or IT firms....and they knew it.

Anyway, long story short, this lad left and of course, ended up on the labour, hanging around every day. His dream job as a caretaker and similar required LC standard, which he didn't have and other than helping on a van with deliveries for a while (no doubt cash in hand), he didn't work.

Last I heard of him he was imprisoned following a firearms offence, probably related to the high profile feud that is going on.

TL;DR Not every child wants/needs to go to college and our current system does not allow for that.

Bobtheman · 01-07-2020 2:00pm

spurious wrote: »

I taught (almost exclusively) the 'difficult' students in an inner city schools. ("Oh, but you're so good with them". Yes, indeed.)
Many of my past pupils are no strangers to newspaper coverage, sadly not always for positive things.

However, it was a very rare child who caused trouble in every single class. They all had something that interested them. It might not have been what many people would want their children to aspire to, but then we would be in trouble a lot quicker without bin men than without lawyers. Any child who wants to go to further ed. should of course be facilitated and encouraged to do so, but not all do and they are the group I think are being failed by our current system.

I will give one of my stories about one particular guy.

He was quite probably affected by drink and drugs in utero, so didn't get off to a great start, but he was honest, polite, came in every day, on time, in uniform and tried as best he could with subjects he didn't understand and wasn't interested in. His reading levels were very low and his concentration span for most things was poor. One Friday I had very few of his class back, so we had a chat about work/the job they would love to get etc.. Now this lad wanted to work, people in his family worked, albeit in minimum wage jobs, but he didn't want to 'just be on the labour'. College was not an option, he wanted to get out and work after the Junior.

Some of the class were still in the 'I want to play for United'/'be a pop star' stage, but he had clearly thought about it and wanted (as he put it) to be 'the man in the community centre who keeps it clean and changes the light bulbs'. Now, he could have done that job. He might have needed a little assistance with things like ordering materials etc., but the guts of the job, he could have done. It would have been his dream job, he would have had standing in the community, he would have kept the place like a new pin, had his few pints at the end of each week and his holiday in the sun.

In the school we already had an unofficial class going where about six students would be taken under the wing of an older male teacher and he would teach them things like how to correctly measure a window pane that needed replacement, how to wire plugs, a small bit of tiling, bicycle repair etc., painting and decorating techniques, along with general life skills like how to speak to people in a non-aggressive way. They loved it and they fought (not literally) over the places in his class. There was no trouble in his classes and the classes they had been withdrawn from were able to operate without major disruption.

Horror of horrors though, they were missing Science/History/Irish/foreign language/whatever so couldn't be boxed somewhere for the Department. What subject were they doing with this teacher? Where was the syllabus? What exam were they going to sit?

Sigh.

So, of course, it came to an end, the lads flittered away shortly after JC, unable to cope with TY, which from their point of view, was way too unstructured and 'full of stupid stuff'. The well-intentioned mixing of ability levels in the TY classes did nothing for their self esteem, so away they went again with the disruptive behaviour. Not for them the TY access to the MiniMed programmes in the Rotunda or RCSI or IT firms....and they knew it.

Anyway, long story short, this lad left and of course, ended up on the labour, hanging around every day. His dream job as a caretaker and similar required LC standard, which he didn't have and other than helping on a van with deliveries for a while (no doubt cash in hand), he didn't work.

Last I heard of him he was imprisoned following a firearms offence, probably related to the high profile feud that is going on.

TL;DR Not every child wants/needs to go to college and our current system does not allow for that.

My God that was fantastically written and expressed. Im just wondering why he could not get a caretakers job with just a JC? Has LCA addressed some of those issues you discussed? Im not familiar with it.
As an English teacher I often feel Id like to take those kids who are at the D level in Ordinary and not going to college and teach them basics first-how to do a CV/letter of application. I have seen bright kids take weeks to get a CV right.
Then perhaps do some poetry that's interesting to them. Give the teachers Flexibility on texts. Instead we stumble from one thing to another. Done badly because we have too much to get through and too many discipline issues.
The discipline issues are not entirely the fault if the curriculum but a large part of it.

Mardy Bum · 01-07-2020 4:17pm

Bobtheman wrote: »

My God that was fantastically written and expressed. Im just wondering why he could not get a caretakers job with just a JC? Has LCA addressed some of those issues you discussed? Im not familiar with it.
As an English teacher I often feel Id like to take those kids who are at the D level in Ordinary and not going to college and teach them basics first-how to do a CV/letter of application. I have seen bright kids take weeks to get a CV right.
Then perhaps do some poetry that's interesting to them. Give the teachers Flexibility on texts. Instead we stumble from one thing to another. Done badly because we have too much to get through and too many discipline issues.
The discipline issues are not entirely the fault if the curriculum but a large part of it.

A lot of discipline issues arise from poorly structured curricula which students can't engage with. The new JC is awful in that it presupposes teachers are wonderful curricula makers which is not true.

spurious · 01-07-2020 4:45pm

I am a huge fan of the LCA, or rather what it could be. Sadly, it has been let fester unloved and un-updated, probably because not all schools (or perhaps not the right schools) offer it.

It was dealt a killer blow (with almost no reaction) a few years ago when someone in an office somewhere removed a Distinction in LCA from the accepted entry paths into the guards. I'm not saying thousands of LCA students want to get into the guards, but it gave the course a status. In fairness, with the high attendance levels and commitment to assignments and tasks involved, a Distinction in the LCA tells you an awful lot of good things about whatever young person achieved it - much more than 550 points tells you about anyone.

The 'Maths issue' is often thrown at the LCA as one of its failings, with the original designers of the course putting in quite a low level of Maths. However, one of the strengths of the LCA is that it 'could' incorporate a 'Maths for 3rd Level/College/whatever you want to call it' option. Such a course could be designed in cooperation with the 3rd level sector. Likewise, a 'Report writing/referencing' section could easily be added as an option in Communications. Not for everyone, but for those interested in preparing for Further Ed..

The key assignments/tasks over four sessions is one of the big plusses of the LCA. Witness the Covid situation, where three sessions had already been completed and LCA students were fairly sure already of what grade they were going to get.

There is a cohort in almost every school of students who do not wish to proceed to Further Ed. and who flail about in an entirely OL/FL standard LC, leaving school very poorly equipped for life. They could be accessing the LCA and its real world skills instead, but while the LCA is seen as 'Lets Count Apples', many schools will not offer it.

Some of the LCA assignments ARE too easy and urgently need updating. Yes, I am looking at you 'send an email with an attachment'. The average LCA student is capable of a lot more than some of the assignments ask. This can be seen in the Tasks, where some tremendous work is done by some students, unconfined by the assignment briefs.

The old City and Guilds Communications Level One assignments from the 80s were fantastic - challenging but not overwhelming. New LCA assignments could be based on them.

TL;DR The LCA is the poor relation of Irish education.

Re my caretaker chap. The caretaker job was a City Council gig and they required a certain level. He didn't have someone in the council already, which was a pity, though of course nothing like relatives getting others into the job goes on, I'm sure.

Bobtheman · 01-07-2020 4:50pm

To be fair the JC is an attempt to make it more accessible and there are parts of JC English that are a welcome addition.
Teacher planning and creativity does stop a lot of discipline problems but getting the time to do it is problematic. Furthermore there are teachers who are just better at designing than others.
It would be great if plans and designs were streamlined for better access rather than thinking a teacher with 7-9 classes a day and a family has the time or energy to do this .
In the UK we saw where this lead. Teachers burning out on average after 5 years.
A lot of the time the people they send from PDST are workaholics who seem to be able to churn out these ideas in their sleep thus their secondment but I don't think they represent the average teacher.
My point here is better planning would alleviate school discipline but it drastically needs to be streamlined so the avg teacher can access ready made plans etc

Bobtheman · 01-07-2020 5:02pm

spurious wrote: »

I am a huge fan of the LCA, or rather what it could be. Sadly, it has been let fester unloved and un-updated, probably because not all schools (or perhaps not the right schools) offer it.

It was dealt a killer blow (with almost no reaction) a few years ago when someone in an office somewhere removed a Distinction in LCA from the accepted entry paths into the guards. I'm not saying thousands of LCA students want to get into the guards, but it gave the course a status. In fairness, with the high attendance levels and commitment to assignments and tasks involved, a Distinction in the LCA tells you an awful lot of good things about whatever young person achieved it - much more than 550 points tells you about anyone.

The 'Maths issue' is often thrown at the LCA as one of its failings, with the original designers of the course putting in quite a low level of Maths. However, one of the strengths of the LCA is that it 'could' incorporate a 'Maths for 3rd Level/College/whatever you want to call it' option. Such a course could be designed in cooperation with the 3rd level sector. Likewise, a 'Report writing/referencing' section could easily be added as an option in Communications. Not for everyone, but for those interested in preparing for Further Ed..

The key assignments/tasks over four sessions is one of the big plusses of the LCA. Witness the Covid situation, where three sessions had already been completed and LCA students were fairly sure already of what grade they were going to get.

There is a cohort in almost every school of students who do not wish to proceed to Further Ed. and who flail about in an entirely OL/FL standard LC, leaving school very poorly equipped for life. They could be accessing the LCA and its real world skills instead, but while the LCA is seen as 'Lets Count Apples', many schools will not offer it.

Some of the LCA assignments ARE too easy and urgently need updating. Yes, I am looking at you 'send an email with an attachment'. The average LCA student is capable of a lot more than some of the assignments ask. This can be seen in the Tasks, where some tremendous work is done by some students, unconfined by the assignment briefs.

The old City and Guilds Communications Level One assignments from the 80s were fantastic - challenging but not overwhelming. New LCA assignments could be based on them.

TL;DR The LCA is the poor relation of Irish education.

Re my caretaker chap. The caretaker job was a City Council gig and they required a certain level. He didn't have someone in the council already, which was a pity, though of course nothing like relatives getting others into the job goes on, I'm sure.

I really found this interesting. I only briefly thought LCA about 20 years ago. I found them a very rough crowd but we got along after I promised paint balling at the end of the year. I found if I taught them 20 minutes out of 40 I was doing well.
My current school avoided this route because it wanted to get rid of some pupils and LCA would only attract them. You could send these students to FAS etc.
I don't condemn my school for this because some of these pupils would be impossible no matter what course you provided them.
However there are students who fall between two stools. They are not excessively difficult but they are weak academically. LCA should be offered in all schools.
But ultimately I think discipline needs more resources in school. Yes more access to support services but also more stick too. Not just carrot. Many schools could use much more detention. I know kids with social supports who loathe it but most schools operate it only once a week.
In other words the armory of the teacher needs to be improved . Not just the carrots .

byhookorbycrook · 01-07-2020 5:03pm

I’m primary and work as an AEN teacher . Sometimes it’s not about fractions / the life cycle of the frog or cursive hand writing . I think the school system is very “ middle class.” The school norms don’t reflect the norms of many children . Yes, we have to have expectations and a standard of behaviour , but we do need to consider why such behaviors are being manifested . All very well in a one-to-one situation, but very difficult in a class of 30.

Having the same teacher most of the day in primary can help - or hinder . Sometimes teacher and student just don’t see eye to eye and for both student and teacher , it can be a very long day !
Likewise in secondary , a range of teachers can be a good / not so good thing .

Bill Rogers advocates “ tactical ignoring “ of low level behaviour issues and whilst I agree with much of what he says , I’m on the fence with this - sometimes a student will keep upping the behaviour to get a reaction.

Bobtheman · 04-07-2020 12:00pm

How would people class discipline today In your school?

byhookorbycrook · 04-07-2020 6:05pm

Bobtheman wrote: »

How would people class discipline today In your school?

Our school would have very high standards of discipline. On school tours etc. the children are always complimented on their behavior.

Bobtheman · 06-07-2020 9:02pm

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Our school would have very high standards of discipline. On school tours etc. the children are always complimented on their behavior.

I'd love to teach there. Our clientele are from disadvantaged so you get lots of hassle. Our systems haven't been updated since the Regan administration.

School Discipline

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