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Shooting Permission
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03-12-2020 12:49am#1Shooting permission
Yearly I get my deer stalking permission renewed in writing from the farmer’s whose land I shoot deer on. Similarly I get Coillte Permission on ground yearly although it costs a lot more.
I vermin shoot when requested to by many farmer’s and obviously I usually do not get written permission although as you can imagine in those circumstances it would not be a problem.
I have shooting range membership renewed yearly again written via membership card usually.
I have membership of gun clubs yearly (mainly NARGC affiliated) and I have a NARGC membership card to prove same but here there is a big difference.
The big difference is that the Gun Club gives me permission to hunt over huge tracts of land which they claim to have shooting permission on but DO THEY.
Having checked the facts out with many clubs it is evident that the majority of the gun clubs have not canvassed farmers for shooting permission in many many years, some 20 to 30 years and even longer. Some gun club officers partly do it when out shooting and meet with a farmer but most have even given that up.
Do gun club members actually have valid current permission in these cases? Are gun clubs fooling themselves in thinking they have? Are we as members fooling ourselves?
What do you consider a reasonable time frame for gun clubs to renew their permission? Yearly, 3 yearly, 10 yearly or?
Valid Gun club permission has already raised its head in I understand East County Cork when individuals came to renew their firearms licence and their club was asked to provide their permissions and this new request from the Gardai will I expect increase over time.
What do you think?1
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Shooting permission
Yearly I get my deer stalking permission renewed in writing from the farmer’s whose land I shoot deer on. Similarly I get Coillte Permission on ground yearly although it costs a lot more.
I vermin shoot when requested to by many farmer’s and obviously I usually do not get written permission although as you can imagine in those circumstances it would not be a problem.
I have shooting range membership renewed yearly again written via membership card usually.
I have membership of gun clubs yearly (mainly NARGC affiliated) and I have a NARGC membership card to prove same but here there is a big difference.
The big difference is that the Gun Club gives me permission to hunt over huge tracts of land which they claim to have shooting permission on but DO THEY.
Having checked the facts out with many clubs it is evident that the majority of the gun clubs have not canvassed farmers for shooting permission in many many years, some 20 to 30 years and even longer. Some gun club officers partly do it when out shooting and meet with a farmer but most have even given that up.
Do gun club members actually have valid current permission in these cases? Are gun clubs fooling themselves in thinking they have? Are we as members fooling ourselves?
What do you consider a reasonable time frame for gun clubs to renew their permission? Yearly, 3 yearly, 10 yearly or?
Valid Gun club permission has already raised its head in I understand East County Cork when individuals came to renew their firearms licence and their club was asked to provide their permissions and this new request from the Gardai will I expect increase over time.
What do you think?
You either have permission from the owner to be on the land and shoot or you don't. Surely anyone in a position of authority in a gun club would be aware of this and if not they should not be involved in any way, shape or fashion in a gun club.
That's my tuppence worth."Very soon we are going to Mars. You wouldn't have been going to Mars if my opponent won, that I can tell you. You wouldn't even be thinking about it."
Donald Trump, March 13th 2018.
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There's no such thing as renewing permission. If you have received permission to shoot on someone's land you have permission to shoot there until the land changes ownership or until they revoke your permission.0
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Shooting permission
Yearly I get my deer stalking permission renewed in writing from the farmer’s whose land I shoot deer on. Similarly I get Coillte Permission on ground yearly although it costs a lot more.
I vermin shoot when requested to by many farmer’s and obviously I usually do not get written permission although as you can imagine in those circumstances it would not be a problem.
I have shooting range membership renewed yearly again written via membership card usually.
I have membership of gun clubs yearly (mainly NARGC affiliated) and I have a NARGC membership card to prove same but here there is a big difference.
The big difference is that the Gun Club gives me permission to hunt over huge tracts of land which they claim to have shooting permission on but DO THEY.
Having checked the facts out with many clubs it is evident that the majority of the gun clubs have not canvassed farmers for shooting permission in many many years, some 20 to 30 years and even longer. Some gun club officers partly do it when out shooting and meet with a farmer but most have even given that up.
Do gun club members actually have valid current permission in these cases? Are gun clubs fooling themselves in thinking they have? Are we as members fooling ourselves?
What do you consider a reasonable time frame for gun clubs to renew their permission? Yearly, 3 yearly, 10 yearly or?
Valid Gun club permission has already raised its head in I understand East County Cork when individuals came to renew their firearms licence and their club was asked to provide their permissions and this new request from the Gardai will I expect increase over time.
What do you think?
I would have to agree with ya with regards to clubs not canvassing farmers for many years. The club I'm in is a bit of a farce to be honest. I wouldn't think theres anyone in the club that knows 100% for sure the land that we have permission to hunt on. I think of there was a requirement to produce a list of all land owners that have given the club permission to hunt the club would be in a bit of bother.0 -
Thanks for the replies. We are all well aware a huge amount of land has changed hands in the last 20 years even if only from father to son. In the last year alone i know of 17 farms that have changed hands around me and that is by no means what has occurred in the full club territory.I do not agree that once a farmer grants permission it is there for ever if not revoked or the land has not changed hands. It would make an interesting legal argument but i fear that it would be well laughed at. Think about it in a different way, say i buy a farm, i'm not going to be told such and such a gun club has previously had permission to shoot here and neither is the seller going to notify the gun club of the sale so where does that leave the permission. It is the law that we as hunters have to have permission before entering land not to assume that we have permission and no doubt it can be thrown at us that every one knows land changes hands on a regular basis and we are the ones who need to make sure that we have permission.Each gun club territory encompasses probably thousands of farms and a certain percentage will always change hands every year. Gun clubs do not keep records in general of who grants permission and when it was granted so one could have a rare old argument suggesting that "sure i have permission because the club got it back in 1980". If asked who got it and from whom id be left scratching my head and as for proof all i could say is that we (being the club) has always shot the land but that argument would not go far.
While working on a boat in a boatyard today i came into contact with a retired judge i broached the subject with him and he is of the opinion that we are deluding ourselves if we consider that we have permission without getting it renewed in WRITING every year or every few years if we can show that we can manage land ownership changes. He reckons that managing would be impossible for a gun club to do given that say father to son transactions would be very private and he would be of the opinion that it would be a weak argument for us to use. he raised more interesting points but i need to get my head around them first.0 -
Thanks for the replies. We are all well aware a huge amount of land has changed hands in the last 20 years even if only from father to son. In the last year alone i know of 17 farms that have changed hands around me and that is by no means what has occurred in the full club territory.I do not agree that once a farmer grants permission it is there for ever if not revoked or the land has not changed hands. It would make an interesting legal argument but i fear that it would be well laughed at. Think about it in a different way, say i buy a farm, i'm not going to be told such and such a gun club has previously had permission to shoot here and neither is the seller going to notify the gun club of the sale so where does that leave the permission. It is the law that we as hunters have to have permission before entering land not to assume that we have permission and no doubt it can be thrown at us that every one knows land changes hands on a regular basis and we are the ones who need to make sure that we have permission.Each gun club territory encompasses probably thousands of farms and a certain percentage will always change hands every year. Gun clubs do not keep records in general of who grants permission and when it was granted so one could have a rare old argument suggesting that "sure i have permission because the club got it back in 1980". If asked who got it and from whom id be left scratching my head and as for proof all i could say is that we (being the club) has always shot the land but that argument would not go far.
While working on a boat in a boatyard today i came into contact with a retired judge i broached the subject with him and he is of the opinion that we are deluding ourselves if we consider that we have permission without getting it renewed in WRITING every year or every few years if we can show that we can manage land ownership changes. He reckons that managing would be impossible for a gun club to do given that say father to son transactions would be very private and he would be of the opinion that it would be a weak argument for us to use. he raised more interesting points but i need to get my head around them first.
I agree with a lot of what you have posted but from my own personal experience I would disagree with the part I have put in bold.
I am good friends with a lot of farmers, some of them are not in favour of hunting or shooting and we just respect one another's opinions and don't fall out or argue over it, we have more things in common.
The majority of farmers I have found welcome responsible hunters on their land. I have seen a good few farms change hands in my locality in the last decade or so, most were inherited and of course if I had permission from the previous owner I would in time meet or approach the new owner and formally ask what the new situation was.
Everytime without fail I have been told that it was mentioned by the previous owner that I had permission to hunt and nothing was going to change and I was to work away as before. Maybe it's just the area I live in but I have a feeling it would be more widespread than that."Very soon we are going to Mars. You wouldn't have been going to Mars if my opponent won, that I can tell you. You wouldn't even be thinking about it."
Donald Trump, March 13th 2018.
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Rows Grower wrote: »You either have permission from the owner to be on the land and shoot or you don't.
100% This. You can't be half pregnant, as they say.
If people are not reconfirming permission, at least after the transfer of land, they are wading into a legal minefield.
I'd consider a written permission to longer lasting a bit longer than a verbal one.The pigeon man wrote: »There's no such thing as renewing permission. If you have received permission to shoot on someone's land you have permission to shoot there until the land changes ownership or until they revoke your permission.
There is nothing on law that says a permission must be granted perpetually. A lander owner, can attach any conditions to it that he wishes, including expiration. This could be explicit or implicit. Cover you ass lads.0 -
100% This. You can't be half pregnant, as they say.
If people are reconfirming permission, at least after the transfer of land, they are wading into a legal minefield.
I'd consider a written permission to longer lasting a bit longer than a verbal one.
There is nothing on law that says a permission must be granted perpetually. A lander owner, can attach any conditions to it that he wishes, including expiration. This could be explicit or implicit. Cover you ass lads.
CYA, the golden rule."Very soon we are going to Mars. You wouldn't have been going to Mars if my opponent won, that I can tell you. You wouldn't even be thinking about it."
Donald Trump, March 13th 2018.
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I remember years ago (in the late 70's, 80's & early 90's) each gun club had to publish a list of all the land they had permission to shoot over. It was up to each gun club to ensure that they still had permission prior to placing it in the newspaper ad each year.
I remember the ad would be probably about half a column long and cost a small fortune. There would be columns & columns of them, running into pages, during Sept. & Oct. before the pheasant season began. It was one of these items built into the yearly gun club expenses.
I heard the reason why it stopped - but for the life of me cannot remember - perhaps somebody here may be able to enlighten us on the reason why it ceased to be a requirement.0 -
I remember years ago (in the late 70's, 80's & early 90's) each gun club had to publish a list of all the land they had permission to shoot over. It was up to each gun club to ensure that they still had permission prior to placing it in the newspaper ad each year.
I remember the ad would be probably about half a column long and cost a small fortune. There would be columns & columns of them, running into pages, during Sept. & Oct. before the pheasant season began. It was one of these items built into the yearly gun club expenses.
I heard the reason why it stopped - but for the life of me cannot remember - perhaps somebody here may be able to enlighten us on the reason why it ceased to be a requirement.
I remember those ad's, there would also be notice's posted from individual farmers along the lines of "Please note my lands at ****** are fully protected fur and feather. Trespassers will be prosecuted."
I'd imagine they were the lands the poachers headed for."Very soon we are going to Mars. You wouldn't have been going to Mars if my opponent won, that I can tell you. You wouldn't even be thinking about it."
Donald Trump, March 13th 2018.
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Rows Grower wrote: »I remember those ad's, there would also be notice's posted from individual farmers along the lines of "Please note my lands at ****** are fully protected fur and feather. Trespassers will be prosecuted."
I'd imagine they were the lands the poachers headed for.
I never remember the gun clubs listing all the lands they had permission to hunt on before my time I say, but u still see the lands preserved ads in a local paper by me. It has its it's own "Lands preserved" section in the classified ads you would see them from october onwards.0 -
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One of our club members several years ago, went to an auction of a large parcel of land.
congratulated the new buyer, introduced himself, and asked if it was ok for the club to continue their stewardship on the land.
He said no problem.
Over time, attrition sets in. you lose some/gain some.0 -
fair play to the club member who took the opportunity to ask for permission for the club at the sale of land within their preserves. As you say that was several years ago though. Its likely nothing has changed but perhaps it has.
I too remember the days of placing notices in the local paper. My recollection is that in my County it was stopped for several reasons. One being the sad fact that more and more ground was being lost due to refusals.At the time it was felt that it would be better to ask for forgiveness rather than risk refusal. The expectation was that the likelihood if someone was seen shooting it would be assumed that it was a very local guy and no problem would arise. One major discussion centered around the premise or assumption that landowners had to put up game preservation notices on their land and perhaps take out a paper notice themselves saying that they wanted no hunting on their land if that was the case. So all clubs went away from getting permission and putting notices in the paper in my neck of the woods. Legally i have no idea if that was correct or not at the time but the law is very clear now that it is the hunters who must get permission before entering land.
I finally got my head around what the retired gentleman said and did some further checking which seems to regretfully confirm what he was saying.It goes something like this:
One of the primary reasons hunters join a gun club is to avail of the shooting rights of the gun club preserves. That membership involves a financial fee thus a legal contract now exists between the member and the club. It is the clubs responsibility to ensure that all members have permission to access the club preserves/land and to identify those lands where permission is not forthcoming. As club membership is renewed yearly then the permission/no permission must be current. The further opinion is that the club officers are the responsible people within the club unless the club constitution declares otherwise.
Take a potential scenario:
I and my shooting companion both of us club members venture into a part of the club we do not usually shoot. We shoot a stubble field and take a cock pheasant and a woodcock from the ditch is a bonus. Each of us is successful. We pack up and leave. Down the road an hour later we are stopped by a Guard. A complaint had gone in, we admitted what we did and showed our club card and explained we were within our preserves. The land owner it transpires was not wearing this and we ended up charged with armed trespass, theft of a bird etc etc or whatever it is one gets charged with in a case like that. Our firearms are confiscated. Our only recourse, our solicitor advises us is with the club?
Now who wants to be in that position anyway? and who wants to be a gun club officer?
Is the retired gentleman correct in his analysis?
I since gave a different person, who was once a solicitor 10 years ago and now is a business consultant the same spiel and he concurs in general. When i mentioned the newspaper notifications we used to do and do not do any longer he was of the opinion a club had no need to once we had gotten permission from each landowner. If we were not getting up to date permission he was of the opinion that we would be in even a worse position should a case came to court as precedence had been established by putting the notices in the newspapers in the past.
From the information i can find out it looks like at the very least landowner permission must be sought each year prior to the start of the shooting season.0
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