[_blaaz]

Death of one of organisers of the civil right march that would desend into what would become known as bloody.sunday



https://www.thejournal.ie/ivan-coope...mment#comments

[BalcombeSt4]

Was Ivan Cooper from a staunchly Loyalist background?

[steddyeddy]

Originally Posted by BalcombeSt4

Was Ivan Cooper from a staunchly Loyalist background?

Ivan was definitely from an Orange Order background. I was sickened to read an article in the Belfast Telegraph mentioning Ivan and Willie Frazer in the same paragraph. The only commonality is that they were both Protestants.

[pedroeibar1]

Originally Posted by steddyeddy

Ivan was definitely from an Orange Order background. .

Ivan Cooper had a Unionist heritage and turned his back on it to actively support a peaceful stance against bigotry and sectarianism. He was a noble person, one of a rare breed in the North.
He was a valued civil rights activist who tried to resolve the inequity by political means and drew inspiration from people like Martin Luther King. He knew that the killings by the British army coupled with the blind arrogance and ignorance of British politicians and judiciary (Widgery) would provide a recruiting platform for the IRA & its splinter groups. And some people did join, in gullible or frustrated herds, lured and fooled by the rhetoric of fossils from a different age. Their twisted logic and attempted self-justification was again recently heard at the funeral of McKee. Unlike them, history will be kind to Cooper, a decent man.

[_blaaz]

Originally Posted by pedroeibar1

Ivan Cooper had a Unionist heritage and turned his back on it to actively support a peaceful stance against bigotry and sectarianism. He was a noble person, one of a rare breed in the North.
He was a valued civil rights activist who tried to resolve the inequity by political means and drew inspiration from people like Martin Luther King. He knew that the killings by the British army coupled with the blind arrogance and ignorance of British politicians and judiciary (Widgery) would provide a recruiting platform for the IRA & its splinter groups. And some people did join, in gullible or frustrated herds, lured and fooled by the rhetoric of fossils from a different age. Their twisted logic and attempted self-justification was again recently heard at the funeral of McKee. Unlike them, history will be kind to Cooper, a decent man.

Quite amazing youve managed to turn a thread about ivan cooper into yet another rant about irish republicans

[BalcombeSt4]

Originally Posted by pedroeibar1

Ivan Cooper had a Unionist heritage and turned his back on it to actively support a peaceful stance against bigotry and sectarianism. He was a noble person, one of a rare breed in the North.
He was a valued civil rights activist who tried to resolve the inequity by political means and drew inspiration from people like Martin Luther King. He knew that the killings by the British army coupled with the blind arrogance and ignorance of British politicians and judiciary (Widgery) would provide a recruiting platform for the IRA & its splinter groups. And some people did join, in gullible or frustrated herds, lured and fooled by the rhetoric of fossils from a different age. Their twisted logic and attempted self-justification was again recently heard at the funeral of McKee. Unlike them, history will be kind to Cooper, a decent man.

What did you think of MLKJ's Deomcratic Socialism?

The History books are already praising McKee

From Peter Taylors book Provos:

"By the spring of 1971, the Provisionals' bombing campaign in Belfast City center had got fully under way, although not yet with the savagery later associated with the IRA's murderous car bombs.
Billy McKee, the Provisionals' Belfast Brigade commander until his arrest on April 15, 1971, insisted that that civilian casualties should be avoided at all costs. To McKee it was a morale question: civilians were non-combatants."

Later on in the book

Here's a small bit about the IRA's descion on bombing London in 1973.
Peter Taylor asks Billy mcKee o on the thought process behind taking the war to England.
"There had been a dicussion early on about bombing England. I thought we should wait until there was a crisis (in the IRA) before we should start. I agreed with the strategy but I didn't agree with bombing civilians, pubs that were full of people and so forth. I didn't condone that. Blowing up the Houses of Parliament wouldn't have made any difference to me but not ordinary civilians."

Pretty much how I felt about to.

The History Books will write with Ivan Cooper withe pride & so they should, he had the guts to stand up to his families horrible ideology just like Ronnie Bunting did a few years after him, they'll both be remembered with fondness.

[pedroeibar1]

Originally Posted by BalcombeSt4

What did you think of MLKJ's Deomcratic Socialism?

The History books are already praising McKee .....Here's a small bit about the IRA's descion on bombing London in 1973..........

This thread is not about your idols, nor your version of republicanism, nor is it a platform to whitewash history. It is about Ivan Cooper. I’ve said what I wanted to; if you want to discuss bombing campaigns or McKee go off and start another thread.

[BalcombeSt4]

Originally Posted by pedroeibar1

This thread is not about your idols, nor your version of republicanism, nor is it a platform to whitewash history. It is about Ivan Cooper. I’ve said what I wanted to; if you want to discuss bombing campaigns or McKee go off and start another thread.

Hahahahaha. You're the one who brought McKee up the first place. In my first post in this thread I mentioned nothing about Republicans, the person to do that was you. And it's not "whitewashing" it's a 23 year old book written by one of Britain's most respected journalist. You tried to paint McKee as blood thirsty maniac lusting for innocent blood & you've been debunked several times by in these threads & Peter Taylor.

And you have no idea what my ideology is. I have more in common with British working class socialists or ordinary people from London, Liverpool, Manchester, Glasgow etc... than I do with right-wingers from Dublin or Belfast, certainly more than this neoFascist Irish Nationalist Party, which is a new version of the Democratic Right. Tony Benn remains my political hero, head and shoulders above anyone in Sinn Fein with Ken Livingstone a close second.

[steddyeddy]

Ivan Cooper's sort of a hero of mine. He's was the peaceful alternative and if Bloody Sunday hadn't happened his charisma might have been enough to convince people there was a peaceful way out of this. Bloody Sunday changed this because it changed the nature of the discrimination Catholics faced in Northern Ireland. It went from being about voting, housing and jobs to being shot in the street because they tried to assert their right to the aforementioned jobs, housing and voting. This could have been dealt with by prosecution of the soldiers involved but the cover up and subsequent honouring of these men sent out the message that the security forces were the bad guys and that justice wouldn't come peacefully.

My uncle, Micheal McLaughlin worked with Ivan and Austin Currie and helped set up the first civil rights march.

Ivan himself summed up the impact of Bloody Sunday better than anyone else could:

You have destroyed the civil rights movement, and you've given the IRA the biggest victory it will ever have. All over this city tonight, young men... boys will be joining the IRA, and you will reap a whirlwind.

[steddyeddy]

Originally Posted by pedroeibar1

Ivan Cooper had a Unionist heritage and turned his back on it to actively support a peaceful stance against bigotry and sectarianism. He was a noble person, one of a rare breed in the North.
He was a valued civil rights activist who tried to resolve the inequity by political means and drew inspiration from people like Martin Luther King. He knew that the killings by the British army coupled with the blind arrogance and ignorance of British politicians and judiciary (Widgery) would provide a recruiting platform for the IRA & its splinter groups. And some people did join, in gullible or frustrated herds, lured and fooled by the rhetoric of fossils from a different age. Their twisted logic and attempted self-justification was again recently heard at the funeral of McKee. Unlike them, history will be kind to Cooper, a decent man.

Why did you bring McKee into the thread?

Regarding people joining the IRA post bloody Sunday my only offering is that it was unavoidable that people would do that when the peaceful route is destroyed.

[BalcombeSt4]

Originally Posted by steddyeddy

Ivan Cooper's sort of a hero of mine. He's was the peaceful alternative and if Bloody Sunday hadn't happened his charisma might have been enough to convince people there was a peaceful way out of this. Bloody Sunday changed this because it changed the nature of the discrimination Catholics faced in Northern Ireland. It went from being about voting, housing and jobs to being shot in the street because they tried to assert their right to the aforementioned jobs, housing and voting. This could have been dealt with by prosecution of the soldiers involved but the cover up and subsequent honouring of these men sent out the message that the security forces were the bad guys and that justice wouldn't come peacefully.

My uncle, Micheal McLaughlin worked with Ivan and Austin Currie and helped set up the first civil rights march.

Ivan himself summed up the impact of Bloody Sunday better than anyone else could:

Cooper was all about peaceful protest alright, but he also believed in defending yourself from aggression, which is why he set up the Derry Citizens Action Committee in 1969 after the January 1969 Burntollet ambush in which police helped the loyalists, when they were on a peaceful civil rights march & then the RUC were running into people's homes in the Bogside & the Creggan & nationalist enclave of the Waterside and beat people to a pulp and beat to death 67 year old Francis McCloskey & Sammy Devenny who's young teenage girls were beaten as well.

Other Defence Committees sprang up in Belfast & Coalisland but the Derry one was by far the best. Thanks mainly due to the organzing skills of Cooper no unwanted thugs entered Free Derry & the barricades were manned 24/7 and there was hardly any crime.

1972 started with a shooting massacre of innocent people in Derry by the British Army the Para's killed 14 people in the Bogside in January, and it ended with a massacre of innocent people in Derry in December, when the UFF shoot 9 people with a Sterling submachine gun in Annie's Bar Massacre in the Waterside just across the bridge from where the Bloody Sunday massacre happened, now the Sterling was a British Army weapon.

[janfebmar]

Originally Posted by _blaaz

Death of one of organisers of the civil right march that would desend into what would become known as bloody.sunday

Tensions were very high in Derry just before Bloody Sunday because two ruc men, one catholic and one protestant, were murdered in Derry only a few days before Bloody Sunday. I wonder if Ivan Cooper could wind back the clock would he have still helped organise the March then , or if it had been postponed for a few weeks would that have made a difference? Or would he have taken steps to try to ensure it did not develop in to a full riot before shooting started?

[_blaaz]

Originally Posted by janfebmar

Tensions were very high in Derry just before Bloody Sunday because two ruc men, one catholic and one protestant, were murdered in Derry only a few days before Bloody Sunday. I wonder if Ivan Cooper could wind back the clock would he have still helped organise the March then , or if it had been postponed for a few weeks would that have made a difference? Or would he have taken steps to try to ensure it did not develop in to a full riot before shooting started?

Its quite the revionist leap to blame ivan cooper for bloody sunday....your amazing to have managed it

[janfebmar]

Originally Posted by _blaaz

Its quite the revionist leap to blame ivan cooper for bloody sunday....your amazing to have managed it

Just wondering if the 2 ruc men had not been shot in Derry 2 days before Bloody Sunday, or if the March had been postponed for a few weeks as a mark of respect, or if there had been no rioting before firing started, would the day have turned out differently?

[janfebmar]

Originally Posted by _blaaz

Unlikely given parachutes record across all its tours in NI particularly.the early 70s



Blaming ivan cooper as your attempting to do is unfairly absorbing the british army of reaponsibilty

If there were no attacks on security forces, and no riot / missiles thrown, do you still think the troops would have opened fire?