VAR Discussion thread

joe_99 · 26-02-2020 11:28am

FitzShane wrote: »

The handball rule was needed to stop any confusion surrounding goals like Aguero v Arsenal & Solanke vs WBA. Both were accidental handled over the line but one was ruled out and one was allowed.

It's black or white, no interpretation in the rule so it's good IMO. Just don't use your hands when scoring goals and you are good!

It's not that simple. Ball touching hand is not a handball offence in the majority of cases

Fitz* · 26-02-2020 11:32am

joe_99 wrote: »

It's not that simple. Ball touching hand is not a handball offence in the majority of cases

It is now, if the ball touches the hand of a scorer or assister of a goal scoring chance.

Trampas · 29-02-2020 6:25am

How are other countries getting on with it?

I don’t watch other ones so no idea.

osarusan · 29-02-2020 6:08pm

https://www.rte.ie/sport/soccer/2020/0229/1119384-offside-law-to-come-under-review-says-football-body/

The International Football Association Board has hinted a possible review of the offside law after much controversy over tight offside calls going against the attacking side with the use of video assistant referees (VAR).

"The AGM agreed to consultation with all the relevant stakeholders, including The IFAB Technical Advisory Panel (TAP) and the Football Advisory Panel (FAP), to review the offside Law to foster the spirit of attacking play," an IFAB statement added.

Not in favour of changing the law really. As posters said earlier (dfx and somebody else), it's better to change how VAR looks at it, rather than the law itself.

In broad strokes, the attacker being level with the last defender seems like something most people are happy with. It's when that gets examined down to toenails and kneecaps that it gets silly.

joe_99 · 29-02-2020 7:09pm

osarusan wrote: »

https://www.rte.ie/sport/soccer/2020/0229/1119384-offside-law-to-come-under-review-says-football-body/

Not in favour of changing the law really. As posters said earlier (dfx and somebody else), it's better to change how VAR looks at it, rather than the law itself.

In broad strokes, the attacker being level with the last defender seems like something most people are happy with. It's when that gets examined down to toenails and kneecaps that it gets silly.

That's the problem. Level doesn't exist anymore. Much better to have a quick visual check and leave it at that. No more vertical lines etc. Obvious offsides caught, levels allowed.

osarusan · 02-07-2020 11:26pm

Moura handball means goal disallowed against Sheffield United. For those who haven't seen it, he was bundled over and as he hit the ground, a defender's attempted clearance smashed against his upper arm/armpit from about 3 inches away, the ball broke to Kane who scored.

Normally you'd say 'horrendous decision', but actually it's the correct decision, just a horrendous law. When the law was written, they had in mind goals like Aguero versus Arsenal, but this falls under the same law.

matrim · 02-07-2020 11:30pm

osarusan wrote: »

Moura handball means goal disallowed against Sheffield United. For those who haven't seen it, he was bundled over and as he hit the ground, a defender's attempted clearance smashed against his upper arm/armpit from about 3 inches away, the ball broke to Kane who scored.

Normally you'd say 'horrendous decision', but actually it's the correct decision, just a horrendous law. When the law was written, they had in mind goals like Aguero versus Arsenal, but this falls under the same law.

ref should have called it back for a spurs free and probably yellow for the SU player.

joeguevara · 02-07-2020 11:39pm

matrim wrote: »

ref should have called it back for a spurs free and probably yellow for the SU player.

Is ref able to do this. Var can only determine handball in attacking play to disallow goal. It can’t then say bring back for free. If ref had seen the foul he would have had to play advantage. The fact he he didn’t means he can’t use Var to go back to an action he didn’t see. Same as he can only use Var for penalties but not frees.

CSF · 02-07-2020 11:40pm

matrim wrote: »

ref should have called it back for a spurs free and probably yellow for the SU player.

He can’t do that from VAR though. It’s one of the limitations for sure, when a team has a goal ruled out when they would have otherwise gotten a free kick in a great position. Probably not the most common occurrence in the world but it will happen again. Not really avoidable unless you want to make free kicks and yellow cards VAR reviewable which I’m sure we do not.

osarusan · 02-07-2020 11:48pm

I don't have an issue with the idea that when a decision goes to VAR (for goals, penalties, red cards), they might end up making a decision of a kind that isn't possible for VAR to give in the first place.

In this case, even though the goal is disallowed for an inadvertent Moura handball, the game should restart with a freekick to Spurs for the foul on Moura. Especially if footage shows that the ref was playing advantage in the first place.

joeguevara · 02-07-2020 11:51pm

CSF wrote: »

He can’t do that from VAR though. It’s one of the limitations for sure, when a team has a goal ruled out when they would have otherwise gotten a free kick in a great position. Probably not the most common occurrence in the world but it will happen again. Not really avoidable unless you want to make free kicks and yellow cards VAR reviewable which I’m sure we do not.

I more or less agreed word for word in my post above. I had a look at the law and it includes the word accidental. Accidental still means through the actions of the fouled player. It shouldn’t mean when they have no input into the handball as in Moura. It was blasted off his arm after being fouled. It would be like saying he accidentally got himself kicked in the 5alls after getting between ball and player or accidentally got himself hit in the head with a bottle after he didn’t move from a missile thrown from a crowd.

CSF · 02-07-2020 11:56pm

osarusan wrote: »

I don't have an issue with the idea that when a decision goes to VAR (for goals, penalties, red cards), they might end up making a decision of a kind that isn't possible for VAR to give in the first place.

In this case, even though the goal is disallowed for an inadvertent Moura handball, the game should restart with a freekick to Spurs for the foul on Moura. Especially if footage shows that the ref was playing advantage in the first place.

I wouldn't be a big fan of that. Brings in too many complications for something we're already seeing be overly complicated. In this very specific instance, it would have been beneficial to be able to give a freekick, but I don't think it outweighs the annoyance of having freekicks or yellow cards reviewed while reviewing other things.

It would inevitably take longer and given how inconsistent refereeing already is with free kicks/yellow cards, would just be a total mess.

CSF · 02-07-2020 11:58pm

joeguevara wrote: »

I more or less agreed word for word in my post above. I had a look at the law and it includes the word accidental. Accidental still means through the actions of the fouled player. It shouldn’t mean when they have no input into the handball as in Moura. It was blasted off his arm after being fouled. It would be like saying he accidentally got himself kicked in the 5alls after getting between ball and player or accidentally got himself hit in the head with a bottle after he didn’t move from a missile thrown from a crowd.

Accidental is only for defensive handballs/handballs that don't result in a goal, no?

They made a distinction where there is a handball in the phase of play that leads to a goal, regardless of how the ball hits a hand. Which to me is complete nonsense but apparently won't be changing next season either.

osarusan · 02-07-2020 11:59pm

CSF wrote: »

I wouldn't be a big fan of that. Brings in too many complications for something we're already seeing be overly complicated. In this very specific instance, it would have been beneficial to be able to give a freekick, but I don't think it outweighs the annoyance of having freekicks or yellow cards reviewed while reviewing other things.

It would inevitably take longer and given how inconsistent refereeing already is with free kicks/yellow cards, would just be a total mess.

Maybe you're right. Maybe I'm guilty of what I said above - making a rule that makes sense in this particular situation but ends up causing as much trouble as it's worth when applied elsewhere.

joeguevara · 03-07-2020 12:05am

CSF wrote: »

Accidental is only for defensive handballs/handballs that don't result in a goal, no?

They made a distinction where there is a handball in the phase of play that leads to a goal, regardless of how the ball hits a hand. Which to me is complete nonsense but apparently won't be changing next season either.

I am having difficulty finding the exact law but did find this from IFAB “ A goal scored directly from the hand/arm (even if accidental) and a player scoring or creating a goal-scoring opportunity after having gained possession/control of the ball from their hand/arm (even if accidental) will no longer be allowed”

The fact that even if accidental is put in twice shows the fact that it has to be on the behaviour of the attacking player rather than having no choice.

CSF · 03-07-2020 12:16am

osarusan wrote: »

Maybe you're right. Maybe I'm guilty of what I said above - making a rule that makes sense in this particular situation but ends up causing as much trouble as it's worth when applied elsewhere.

It’s what I think would end up happening anyway. The more things VAR look at, the more things they will either do subjectively or get wrong, both of which have a tendency to make people here and in general very agitated.

CSF · 03-07-2020 12:19am

joeguevara wrote: »

I am having difficulty finding the exact law but did find this from IFAB “ A goal scored directly from the hand/arm (even if accidental) and a player scoring or creating a goal-scoring opportunity after having gained possession/control of the ball from their hand/arm (even if accidental) will no longer be allowed”

The fact that even if accidental is put in twice shows the fact that it has to be on the behaviour of the attacking player rather than having no choice.

It’s the IFAB stuff I read myself. Haven’t read the rule book to know exactly where it’s located. But that’s how they’re doing it anyway.

Hammer Archer · 04-07-2020 9:43am

joeguevara wrote: »

I am having difficulty finding the exact law but did find this from IFAB “ A goal scored directly from the hand/arm (even if accidental) and a player scoring or creating a goal-scoring opportunity after having gained possession/control of the ball from their hand/arm (even if accidental) will no longer be allowed”

The fact that even if accidental is put in twice shows the fact that it has to be on the behaviour of the attacking player rather than having no choice.

Spurs' first goal against West Ham came from a handball and it was allowed despite VAR looking at it. Don't think the officials even bothered to release a statement clarifying why it was allowed.
The above is what I thought the rule was but when you have almost identical incidents with complete opposite decisions by VAR, I don't know anymore

CSF · 04-07-2020 10:45am

Hammer Archer wrote: »

Spurs' first goal against West Ham came from a handball and it was allowed despite VAR looking at it. Don't think the officials even bothered to release a statement clarifying why it was allowed.
The above is what I thought the rule was but when you have almost identical incidents with complete opposite decisions by VAR, I don't know anymore

Looks like they just sh*t the bed on the decision and missed it though.

raclle · 19-09-2020 10:58pm

I think VAR is ruining the game and would be more than happy to see it removed. Todays pen decision was the final straw for me. I know its the "new rules" but there needs to be some common sense as well. Everything is going to look much worse in slow motion. We don't hear any correspondence between VAR and the on field ref. Decisions take too long. Being offside by a toenail is ridiculous. Its no longer enjoyable to watch a game these days.

osarusan · 19-09-2020 11:03pm

Watching the Palace penalty decision today, I was asking myself, not for the first time: when the IFAB panel (or whoever it was) came up with the new law and wording of the law, is this the kind of incident they wanted to be given as a penalty, or would they say 'no no, that's not what we intended at all'?

raclle · 19-09-2020 11:12pm

If that is indeed the case there is going to be 2 or 3 pens every game if todays decision is anything to go by

noodler · 19-09-2020 11:25pm

The pen today I wasn't too upset with.

Also the ref took a look and made his own mind up.

DDG off the line was harsh tho.

Guy:Incognito · 19-09-2020 11:38pm

raclle wrote: »

I think VAR is ruining the game and would be more than happy to see it removed. Todays pen decision was the final straw for me. I know its the "new rules" but there needs to be some common sense as well. Everything is going to look much worse in slow motion. We don't hear any correspondence between VAR and the on field ref. Decisions take too long. Being offside by a toenail is ridiculous. Its no longer enjoyable to watch a game these days.

So your issue isnt with the rule that they brought in, its that they are enforcing it?

Thanx 4 The Fish · 19-09-2020 11:38pm

noodler wrote: »

The pen today I wasn't too upset with.

Also the ref took a look and made his own mind up.

DDG off the line was harsh tho.

Not harsh really, if it was a ball that far over the line for a goal for your team, you would not have been pleased if it was not given.

raclle · 19-09-2020 11:52pm

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

So your issue isnt with the rule that they brought in, its that they are enforcing it?

No its just VAR in general

larchielads · 20-09-2020 12:19am

So whats stoppin attackers aimin for a defenders arms and claimin penalties. Attacker in a bit of a pickle, chips the ball at defenders arm and claim a penalty?

larchielads · 20-09-2020 12:21am

And on the penalty thingy, if its got to be the retaken then ye shouldnt be allowed change pen taker unless for some drastic reason he injured himself takin the penalty

SK1979 · 20-09-2020 12:27am

I thought that they had relaxed the keeper off his line thing though? It didn't seem like a blatant one to be honest.

dfx- · 20-09-2020 12:29am

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

So your issue isnt with the rule that they brought in, its that they are enforcing it?

It's one and the same thing. They brought in the law to suit VAR's black or white application of it. That's why "don't blame the VAR, blame the law" thing doesn't work.

The penalty decision and the retake decision was farcical. If it is so close that the game restarts before judging it, it should not be retaken.

Agent Coulson · 20-09-2020 12:48am

The keeper came off his line so the penalty had to be retaken however Zaha should not have been allowed to take the retaken penalty Ayew should have, Man U weren't allowed to put someone else in goal to try and save it.

larchielads · 20-09-2020 8:55am

And how was gabriels hand ball v west ham not deemed a penalty but lindelof was. Gabriels clear cut hit his arm

TitianGerm · 20-09-2020 9:21am

Agent Coulson wrote: »

The keeper came off his line so the penalty had to be retaken however Zaha should not have been allowed to take the retaken penalty Ayew should have, Man U weren't allowed to put someone else in goal to try and save it.

Is there a rule to say you can't switch takers?

osarusan · 20-09-2020 9:27am

TitianGerm wrote: »

Is there a rule to say you can't switch takers?

I think he is posting about what the law 'should' be, rather than what it is.

TitianGerm · 20-09-2020 9:29am

osarusan wrote: »

I think he is posting about what the law 'should' be, rather than what it is.

Ok. He did say United weren't allowed change their keeper though so I got confused. There's no rule stopping them bringing on Henderson to face the second penalty.

osarusan · 20-09-2020 9:31am

TitianGerm wrote: »

Ok. He did say United weren't allowed change their keeper though so I got confused. There's no rule stopping them bringing on Henderson to face the second penalty.

Yeah, I doubt there's a law against it, it's just something we'd pretty much never see.

marklazarcovic · 20-09-2020 9:41am

var should be used for serious foul play,and offsides,thats it.

20-09-2020 12:10pm

I love VAR.

I think it’s a real leveller for the smaller clubs.

No more big club bias from referees that were frequently intimidated by famous managers and players.

The laws of the game are there to be adhered to by all playing.

I think the biggest problem we are seeing with it is people getting used to it. A lot of people don’t like change.

The players are finding if difficult because they’ve been cheating all their careers but are not getting away with it now.

I would like to see VAR being used for even more decisions.

If it stays in the game, for long enough, it’ll cut out the cheating and maybe we can focus on the skill and tactics of the game rather than all the boring non analysis we’ve had to put up with for years.

It’s time to talk about the players, managers and the games and time to stop talking about the referees.

noodler · 20-09-2020 12:14pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I love VAR.

I think it’s a real leveller for the smaller clubs.

No more big club bias from referees that were frequently intimidated by famous managers and players.

The laws of the game are there to be adhered to by all playing.

I think the biggest problem we are seeing with it is people getting used to it. A lot of people don’t like change.

The players are finding if difficult because they’ve been cheating all their careers but are not getting away with it now.

I would like to see VAR being used for even more decisions.

If it stays in the game, for long enough, it’ll cut out the cheating and maybe we can focus on the skill and tactics of the game rather than all the boring non analysis we’ve had to put up with for years.

It’s time to talk about the players, managers and the games and time to stop talking about the referees.

I won't go through line by line but I agree the broad thrust.

Disagree completely with those who feel it is ruining the game or who want it gone.

ArmaniJeanss · 20-09-2020 12:42pm

dfx- wrote: »

It's one and the same thing. They brought in the law to suit VAR's black or white application of it. That's why "don't blame the VAR, blame the law" thing doesn't work.

The penalty decision and the retake decision was farcical. If it is so close that the game restarts before judging it, it should not be retaken.

All that would mean is that keepers would be attempting to be enough off their line to gain the advantage but not enough to be definitively spotted in real time.
Some would still be caught, others would get away with it, a fuss would ensue.
Using the actual white line should take almost all the argument out of it.
(I'm an ex-keeper by the way who prided myself on always being at least 2 metres off the line by the time the pen was taken)

raclle · 20-09-2020 3:57pm

Deleted User wrote: »

If it stays in the game, for long enough, it’ll cut out the cheating

Which is the only real positive I've seen so far. You also mentioned about it being used for more decisions that could potentially lead to more goals from corners etc but would there then not be people complaining about the amount of stoppages per game? To be fair there has been a lot of controversy so far with VAR and the cons are certainly outweighing the pros imo

osarusan · 26-09-2020 11:27pm

Some of the penalties given for handball after VAR intervention have been very very dodgy. The Everton penalty against Palace today was an example.

It's one thing to say it should be a penalty, it's another to decide it's a clear and obvious error not to give it in the first place.

Harry Palmr · 23-01-2021 4:29pm

Enjoyable "think piece" about VAR's impact on the broad psychology of football

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2021/jan/23/he-shoots-he-scores-or-does-he-how-var-changed-football-for-ever

NIMAN · 24-01-2021 6:34am

Interesting watching the Cheltenham v Man City game on BBC yesterday when they told us there is no VAR outside the EPL grounds, and that "the refs will have to make all the decisions themselves".

c.p.w.g.w · 24-01-2021 1:57pm

How didn't var rule out chelsea's first goal against Luton.. 2 balls on the pitch

tanko · 04-09-2022 6:42pm

So PGMOL or whatever they call themselves have admitted the two disallowed goals should have stood, what a complete and utter shambles VAR has become.

BillyHasMates · 04-09-2022 6:59pm

It still remains a great idea but the implementation of it has been a complete disaster with massive inconsistencies. What it has shown up for me is the sheer incompetence of the vast majority of the referees involved. It still requires human decision making to implement which is where the problem and inconsistencies lie. It is further frustrating fans because they can see the process and know that the var ref and the onfield ref have access to video technology to correct an onfield mistake yet still get it wrong so many times. Fans are then left thinking how the **** has the var ref come to that decision with the benefit of technology.

To get it back on track they should limit its use further and the var ref should have to explain his or her decision making process for any var intervention during a game.

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