Clarkson was correct it’s an ending

TCP/IP · 11-09-2019 1:58pm #1

Well about four years ago Jeremy Clarkson did a special and reviewed the Aston Martin V12 Vantage and looked at it as an ending which at the time I did not believe as some of the greatest cars ever had just been released but now I see what he meant by his comments. Thoughts people?

https://youtu.be/5Q0Svvdrx_E

With the constant war on environmental issues the electric car is going to be pushed massively on people through taxation and incentives. Is it really the end of the motor enthusiast?

jimgoose · 11-09-2019 2:01pm

Of course not. JC meant the end of the rip-snorting twelve-cylinder monster, not the motor car or the motoring enthusiast. There were similar anguished cries back in the day when diesel started taking over.

btkm8unsl0w5r4 · 11-09-2019 2:10pm

You are conflating two different thing there TCPIP....

At the time I though that video was self indulgent Clarkson tripe, but is does seem somewhat prophetic now.

Motor enthusiasts will continue, its just now they will enthuse about electric motors. Combustion engines will become classic, and nostalgic and much coveted relics of a different time.

You can smell the change in the air at the moment, and early adopters are nodding smugly and the neighsayers make arguments why the old ways are the best way, and new fangled things dont have the "soul" of the new things and a way of life is ending. Its neither, things they are a changing, for the better.

Toyotafanboi · 11-09-2019 2:16pm

Yeah, enthusiasm will just change with what's available.

People who are into old cars can still be into them, there's plenty left.

To the next generation of enthusiasts they will only know of electric/ hydrogen powered cars or whatever so that'll be what they're into.

For us in the interim it's weird, but it's also an exciting time for cars and the automotive industry, it's changing at a rate of knots. Be open minded to the future at least.

Voodoomelon · 11-09-2019 2:24pm

There's a good documentary on YouTube on how far behind the Germans are in this regard, burying their heads in the sand for the last 10 years, refusing to accept the change from ICEs. They've a fair bit of catching up to do.

tossy · 11-09-2019 2:34pm

Voodoomelon wrote: »

There's a good documentary on YouTube on how far behind the Germans are in this regard, burying their heads in the sand for the last 10 years, refusing to accept the change from ICEs. They've a fair bit of catching up to do.

The had a fair bit of catching up to do in 1918 too i wouldn't goad them too much

TCP/IP · 11-09-2019 2:36pm

Voodoomelon wrote: »

There's a good documentary on YouTube on how far behind the Germans are in this regard, burying their heads in the sand for the last 10 years, refusing to accept the change from ICEs. They've a fair bit of catching up to do.

Love to watch that can you post a link to it please.

bladespin · 11-09-2019 2:52pm

Yep, was at Cannonball over the weekend, the cars were all beautiful as exotics usually are but i did have the thought: we're not going to be hearing these very much longer, V8s, V12s etc all there and it was beautiful.

Stallingrad · 11-09-2019 3:24pm

TCP/IP wrote: »

Love to watch that can you post a link to it please.

Ditto.

caff · 11-09-2019 3:26pm

People will just look at petrol and diesel car drivers the same way as people look at steam engine enthusiasts...

TCP/IP · 11-09-2019 3:36pm

caff wrote: »

People will just look at petrol and diesel car drivers the same way as people look at steam engine enthusiasts...

Well I think we are a long time from that but eventually it will get there.

jimgoose · 11-09-2019 3:39pm

caff wrote: »

People will just look at petrol and diesel car drivers the same way as people look at steam engine enthusiasts...

I plan on being the Fred Dibnah of 110-horsepower Ford Focii! :cool:

TCP/IP · 11-09-2019 3:39pm

Scott Faint Raspberry wrote: »

You are conflating two different thing there TCPIP....

At the time I though that video was self indulgent Clarkson tripe, but is does seem somewhat prophetic now.

Motor enthusiasts will continue, its just now they will enthuse about electric motors. Combustion engines will become classic, and nostalgic and much coveted relics of a different time.

You can smell the change in the air at the moment, and early adopters are nodding smugly and the neighsayers make arguments why the old ways are the best way, and new fangled things dont have the "soul" of the new things and a way of life is ending. Its neither, things they are a changing, for the better.

Completely agree things are changing no doubt about it. For the better I am still on the fence over that, though a mountain run with your Tesla M3P could change my mind.

btkm8unsl0w5r4 · 11-09-2019 4:22pm

Your Sir are always welcome to drive my cars

....The M3P is an ideal mountain run car. 4WD, atomically fast, well damped small with a fast steering rack.

Still I will miss the rumble of a great engine.

patmahe · 11-09-2019 4:32pm

An electric car with a soul is only a matter of time away. Someone will eventually build a great handling, good looking affordable electric car with a 500 mile range in normal driving or a 100 mile on track range. We will miss the old rumble of an engine heading for the redline, but electric cars will still be fun, just a different type of fun. 100% of torque from standstill and endless new ways of packaging cars, imagine a 500KG Caterham type car when the battery tech catches up to that point

TCP/IP · 11-09-2019 4:34pm

Scott Faint Raspberry wrote: »

Your Sir are always welcome to drive my cars ....The M3P is an ideal mountain run car. 4WD, atomically fast, well damped small with a fast steering rack.

Still I will miss the rumble of a great engine.

Thanks mate lets just hope you don't run out of battery up the mountains :P

pippip · 11-09-2019 4:36pm

Ah lads, you'll always be able to get that great rumble of a v8 or v10.........only problem is it'll be through the speakers.

Private Joker · 11-09-2019 4:38pm

TCP/IP wrote: »

Love to watch that can you post a link to it please.

Will Germany's car industry survive? | DW Documentary

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hcXjVxaKzv4&t=1177s

Interesting how a lot of German executives and engineers have moved to China due to the regulatory constraints in Europe.

TCP/IP · 11-09-2019 4:39pm

Private Joker wrote: »

Will Germany's car industry survive? | DW Documentary

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hcXjVxaKzv4&t=1177s

Thanks mate

H3llR4iser · 11-09-2019 7:54pm

Well folks, ditch your laptops and macbooks, get a decent PC, a powerful graphics card and invest in a good steering wheel and pedals + stand set. Get a VR headset if you feel so inclined, because simulations are all us mere mortals are going to be left with.

The line of "old cars will still be around" and "somebody will figure out how to make exciting EVs" is an hopeful, but naive one.

Younger people are not interested in cars - they want screens, entertainment, be "connected". Manufacturers are figuring this out, slowly to be honest, but are realizing that in the coming decades they can transform cars from something expected to last 15 or more years into white goods with an rapid obsolescence. People will change cars because the screen in the middle of the dash is not as crisp as a new one, or because the CPU doesn't support the latest OS update. Most vehicles will be little more than moving "entertainment pods"; Because the older car will be pretty much useless and ready to be scrapped like an old iPhone, and the customers will buy more often, vehicles are likely to become cheaper, simpler things. Why try to sell a person a 50k product once every 6 years, when you can sell a 20k one every 2?

As for "old ICEs", they'll die out - producing petrol and diesel is EXPENSIVE and with the demand not being there, they'll become rare if not extinct goods. More importantly 'though, considering the tech shift is driven by ethics much more than actual technology and that thermal engines are clearly the "villain" in all this...an outright and total ban a number of decades down the line is not just likely, is pretty much guaranteed.

There might be a minimal, super-exclusive market remaining for "enthusiasts", but it'll be much different and much more expensive than today. There won't be the option to get a 10 years old BMW or Alfa Romeo for 1000 Euro, these will be in a museum where people who grew up following instructions on a touchscreen will be wondering "this can't be a car, there is no screen!". There will likely be new sportscars, powered by whatever the current clunky and suburban-america-centric battery based technology will have evolved into, but as the market for these will have shrunk even further than today's, they'll be hyper-expensive and the exclusive realm of the impossibly rich.

The only consolation is that you may want wait a few hardware generations to get your sim gear, as the full transition is not likely to be completed in our lifetime.

TCP/IP · 11-09-2019 8:08pm

Hold the press there is still a hope for us car fans. Just announced
https://youtu.be/q5uztsrGpqI

Eric Cartman · 11-09-2019 8:19pm

Voodoomelon wrote: »

There's a good documentary on YouTube on how far behind the Germans are in this regard, burying their heads in the sand for the last 10 years, refusing to accept the change from ICEs. They've a fair bit of catching up to do.

watched that too, but I don't think they care. Electric cars are being built, VW is starting up on their ID ranges etc... I think ICE engines will live on in sports, exotic and luxury cars for a while longer yet. If overall carbon emissions targets are met and the only noisy V 6, 8, 12 cylinders left on the road are all higher end cars then thats a world I think BMW and Mercedes are happy to exist in for another decade.

German car manufacturers are known for releasing new technology when it reaches a certain standard, as electric cars are bailing out the door with serious "its great but...." issues over range, charging times, weight issues etc... I think theyre more playing at 'not yet' than never.

We also have to remember that chinese consumers consume luxury brands at huge rates, US buyers love the euro luxury cars , eastern europe is coming on stream to purchase more and more luxury german cars. They've a lot more market growth opportunity left.

TCP/IP · 11-09-2019 8:44pm

LIGHTNING wrote: »

What use is a 1/4 of a million Euro super car to the everyday person. Ferrari's bore the crap out of me anyways. Completely unusable performance on the roads.

Well I fully intend buying a 458 in the next three years so seeing Ferrari still making serious ICE cars is great. Agreed most of the time you cant use all the performance but you miss the point that a Ferrari has history and character agreed totally impractical but you don't buy them for that.

Philb76 · 11-09-2019 9:04pm

I would argue cars are moving entertainment pods at the minute and have been white goods for a few years now if you are using the mobile phone analogy the opposite has happened they can cost a fortune now

Wibbs · 11-09-2019 9:05pm

TCP/IP wrote: »

Well I fully intend buying a 458 in the next three years so seeing Ferrari still making serious ICE cars is great. Agreed most of the time you cant use all the performance but you miss the point that a Ferrari has history and character agreed totally impractical but you don't buy them for that.

Well good luck with your dream of the 458. Lovely looking car. Hope you get it.

Ferraris are what they are. Not intended to be practical, though some of their models down the years could be practical enough, the 456 as an example, any number of their 60's four seaters another. Between breakdowns anyway(though the 60's ones were often more reliable than later, even new models, if driven on the regular). The brand is well, a brand now. IIRC they sell more branded merchandise than cars and make more money that way.

H3llR4iser · 12-09-2019 12:02am

Philb76 wrote: »

I would argue cars are moving entertainment pods at the minute and have been white goods for a few years now if you are using the mobile phone analogy the opposite has happened they can cost a fortune now

Phones have gone up in price because there is huge demand and they've become a fashion statement; younger people will keep buying whatever sh1t Apple cr@ps out, as long as there's the coveted logo on it - wanna talk about the 999$ monitor stand? I don't think I've ever had a...monitor worth that much, and I bloody work in IT since 2001

On the other end gen Y, Z and whatnot tend to genuinely despise cars - they're not even considered a status symbol anymore, an iPhone X is. This will most likely cause a seismic shift in the car market, de facto eliminating most of the segments and starting a race to the bottom.

Right now, one of the ugly truths about why most EVs don't sell as well as one would expect them to...is that most of their target buyers don't think they're worth as much money as they cost.

HailSatan · 12-09-2019 7:10am

pippip wrote: »

Ah lads, you'll always be able to get that great rumble of a v8 or v10.........only problem is it'll be through the speakers.

Petrol or diesel.

Dravokivich · 12-09-2019 8:55am

caff wrote: »

People will just look at petrol and diesel car drivers the same way as people look at steam engine enthusiasts...

In awe?

...count me in so.

i57dwun4yb1pt8 · 15-09-2019 12:15am

enterainment pod , wtf ???

i can only assume you mean it will be self driving ??

Andrewf20 · 15-09-2019 8:40am

It may not be an ending just yet. Google "sf6" which is a pretty nasty chemical used on the high voltage electrical grid. Limited word of it in the media. The bbcnews website had a good article on it this week. 1kg of it released into the atmosphere is equivalent to 23500kg of co2.

https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-49567197

Surely it puts the generation of electricity and the green credentials for cars into question.

15-09-2019 11:16am

Andrewf20 wrote: »

It may not be an ending just yet. Google "sf6" which is a pretty nasty chemical used on the high voltage electrical grid.

Not sure what you suggest here? Ban electricity and return to 19th Century? Or replace SF6 with something else?

Andrewf20 · 15-09-2019 12:16pm

samih wrote: »

Not sure what you suggest here? Ban electricity and return to 19th Century? Or replace SF6 with something else?

The demand on the electrical grid is going to massively increase if the move to electric cars takes place, resulting in more sf6 leaks unless a solution is found. The article didn't allude to any easy alternatives. The article states that levels have increased with the green energy boom.

corkgsxr · 15-09-2019 12:16pm

Scott Faint Raspberry wrote: »

Your Sir are always welcome to drive my cars ....The M3P is an ideal mountain run car. 4WD, atomically fast, well damped small with a fast steering rack.

Still I will miss the rumble of a great engine.

3 Laps of a average track it overheats enough it has to pull power. And that's tesla themselves saying that. Equivalent to about 3 seconds a lap.

And still 200 odd kg heavier than a m3 its pointing fingers at.

mickdw · 15-09-2019 12:16pm

This only goes to highlight what a scam the whole green movement is. It's just a cause that big business can make a killing off. If they have to use a harmful gas in the process, they will do that.

btkm8unsl0w5r4 · 15-09-2019 1:21pm

corkgsxr wrote: »

3 Laps of a average track it overheats enough it has to pull power. And that's tesla themselves saying that. Equivalent to about 3 seconds a lap.

And still 200 odd kg heavier than a m3 its pointing fingers at.

Weill I will tell you in a few months. I can only do about 4 laps at a times in my ICE car before it needs a cooldown anyway. I usually reun about 10 seconds off the pace so wont be an issue for me.

Old diesel · 15-09-2019 1:26pm

samih wrote: »

Andrewf20 wrote: »

It may not be an ending just yet. Google "sf6" which is a pretty nasty chemical used on the high voltage electrical grid.

Not sure what you suggest here? Ban electricity and return to 19th Century? Or replace SF6 with something else?

He's implying that you should continue with fossil cars because SF6 from electricity is worse then c02 .

Edit I missed Andrews reply

quokula · 15-09-2019 1:41pm

SF6 is responsible for a fraction of a percent of global warming. Let’s not turn this into a crackpot climate denial thread.

Electric cars are not perfect but a huge step in the right direction and ultimately we absolutely must transition to them if we are to have any hope for the future.

I expect there will still be plenty of room for enthusiasts V12 super cars etc, they contribute practically nothing to climate change compared to the hundreds of millions of commuters out there.

People still ride horses and still learn archery for fun, that sort of thing can coincide with the practical use for these things moving on.

corkgsxr · 15-09-2019 9:23pm

Scott Faint Raspberry wrote: »

Weill I will tell you in a few months. I can only do about 4 laps at a times in my ICE car before it needs a cooldown anyway. I usually reun about 10 seconds off the pace so wont be an issue for me.

What car is that out of curiosity

Clarkson was correct it’s an ending

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