Wild Nephin

robp · 14-09-2012 6:26pm #1

I came across this project recently and it really captivated my imagination. It’s a proposal to allow extensive Coillte forests in the Nephin Beg range just east of the Ballycroy National park to 'rewild'. They claim to be combining the Coillte and NPWS land to set aside 8,000 hectares.
http://www.self-willed-land.org.uk/articles/wild_nephin_project.pdf
Also
http://www.self-willed-land.org.uk/articles/wild_nephin.htm

Based on the potential yield classes of what remains, Coillte has determined that they would make a financial loss if they tried to harvest conifers from the whole plantation.

Clearly its at a very early stage and partly motived to avoid losses. From what I gather they don't seem to making a large effort to replace the exotic conifers present with Scots Pine or native broad leaves. I was also confused why the land isn't just given to the NPWS to create an extended national park. All the same there is great potential.
What do you folks think? What is the ecological potential of a naturalised conifer forest?

Mickeroo · 14-09-2012 6:49pm

It's a great idea. The area has been crying out for something like this. It's pretty much the largest wild area in the country. If they upgrade the trail a bit on the bangor trail and do what it says in that plan I could see it being very successful.

The only thing I'm not sure about is it seems they're intent on leaving the conifer forest intact? can't say I agree with the report saying it's an important habitat. i would like to see them fell the whole thing or at least large tracts of it and allow the land to be recolonised naturally, similar to what has been done in the forest at Clonbur. If they leave the conifers but somehow naturalise it I guess i would be ok with that but it would still involve felling most of the conifers to be of any worth imo.

robp · 14-09-2012 9:08pm

Mickeroo wrote: »

The only thing I'm not sure about is it seems they're intent on leaving the conifer forest intact? can't say I agree with the report saying it's an important habitat. i would like to see them fell the whole thing or at least large tracts of it and allow the land to be recolonised naturally, similar to what has been done in the forest at Clonbur. If they leave the conifers but somehow naturalise it I guess i would be ok with that but it would still involve felling most of the conifers to be of any worth imo.

I feel really strongly about this point too. The manager mentions in the second link I gave he wants to see these forest naturalise in the way beech has naturalised in hardwood forests across the country.

I would argue that is flawed comparison as beech is native to Europe. It supports a great deal of typical European species which may be adapted to several European trees e.g. oak. The trees in Nephin are Lodge pole pine. An American species from a completely different habitat and even continent. Some would argue beech is a weed here too. I doubt anyone really knows what ecological role lodgepole pine would fulfil in NW Europe.

I can see money being an enormous barrier to replanting with natives but with enough leadership and hard-graft couldn't volunteers manage it. It would take years though. I would use Carrifran wildwood in Scotland as an example of how it could be done.

magicbastarder · 15-09-2012 10:30am

i'd heard about this before; does anyone know if there are red squirrels in the existing forest? they do like pine forests.
if not, i'd be interested to see how ringbarking the existing trees would work (albeit at a cost of probably not allowing people into those areas!).

but i do like the idea of letting nature take care of itself - it's well worth reading richard mabey or oliver rackham's opinions of man 'imposing' what he thinks should be in a landscape.
rackham also makes an interesting argument about the whole idea of commercial forestry in the british isles - that it's done over such a long period, that people lose sight of the total economic cost, let alone the environmental one. e.g. it's a no-brainer for coillte to plan a clearfelling of a site and sell it for a short-term profit, while having forgotten how much that site cost over the previous 40 years to plant and maintain.

robp · 15-09-2012 11:33am

magicbastarder wrote: »

i'd heard about this before; does anyone know if there are red squirrels in the existing forest? they do like pine forests.
if not, i'd be interested to see how ringbarking the existing trees would work (albeit at a cost of probably not allowing people into those areas!).

In the Coillte PDF above they make a passing reference to 'potential species introductions of red squirrel and black grouse'. So I guess their absent. Would squirrels infer with ringbacked trees?

Connacht · 15-09-2012 2:52pm

I know this area very well and spend time up there, but am not an ecologist.
I've heard about this project for a few years now and it has wonderful potential, especially for outdoors 'green' low-impact tourism, like wild camping, hiking, survival skills, etc.
It is a haven of otter, pine marten, red deer, ravens, kestrels, the odd passing eagle and more. There are no red (or grey) squirrels.
However :
First of all, this area is (with very few exceptions) a vast blanket bog, so broadleaf trees wouldn't stand a chance of thriving there. Any comparison with Clonbur (limestone pavement) is of little value, as the terrain is totally different.
IMO if the place is left alone, what will happen is that the conifers will slowly die out, becoming suffocated / drowned by the bog.
Second, Coillte and its sub-contractors continue to clear-fell large tracts of the area, leaving the usual landscape that looks like someone has come along and blanket-bombed the place. I guess I can understand that - they're cutting what they deem to be still feasible.
Third, I suspect the Fisheries people will have a big say in any recreational activity that might take place along the very important river systems in the area.

What I would really love to see is a thinning of the existing conifers. They are so densely planted that there is no light getting in, with resultant no understorey (not even grass) and very low biodiversity, with incredibly few birds. However, I realise that's virtually impossible to achieve. Cutting every second or third tree out of a plantation is impractical and would leave the remaining ones susceptible to windthrow, as their root systems are so shallow.

So while I really look forward to the day the last tree fellers and lorries depart, you shouldn''t think it can be turned into some sort of beautiful native forest of oak, ash, holly, etc. like Killarney NP or Clonbur.

Mickeroo · 15-09-2012 3:13pm

Connacht wrote: »

I know this area very well and spend time up there, but am not an ecologist.
I've heard about this project for a few years now and it has wonderful potential, especially for outdoors 'green' low-impact tourism, like wild camping, hiking, survival skills, etc.
It is a haven of otter, pine marten, red deer, ravens, kestrels, the odd passing eagle and more. There are no red (or grey) squirrels.
However :
First of all, this area is (with very few exceptions) a vast blanket bog, so broadleaf trees wouldn't stand a chance of thriving there. Any comparison with Clonbur (limestone pavement) is of little value, as the terrain is totally different.
IMO if the place is left alone, what will happen is that the conifers will slowly die out, becoming suffocated / drowned by the bog.
Second, Coillte and its sub-contractors continue to clear-fell large tracts of the area, leaving the usual landscape that looks like someone has come along and blanket-bombed the place. I guess I can understand that - they're cutting what they deem to be still feasible.
Third, I suspect the Fisheries people will have a big say in any recreational activity that might take place along the very important river systems in the area.

What I would really love to see is a thinning of the existing conifers. They are so densely planted that there is no light getting in, with resultant no understorey (not even grass) and very low biodiversity, with incredibly few birds. However, I realise that's virtually impossible to achieve. Cutting every second or third tree out of a plantation is impractical and would leave the remaining ones susceptible to windthrow, as their root systems are so shallow.

So while I really look forward to the day the last tree fellers and lorries depart, you shouldn''t think it can be turned into some sort of beautiful native forest of oak, ash, holly, etc. like Killarney NP or Clonbur.

YEa i'm from around the are too. i know its different to Clonbur in that regard, I just meant in the sense of letting nature take its course on the area. The area wouldn't be suitable for a broadleaf forest 9though there is that beautiful random mature oak tree along the Bangor Trail however it got there I'll never know

).

I would have thought there are some trees more suitable to the area though? Like Rowan for example, and would Scotts Pine not be able to grow there?

I agree a thinning of the existing forest would be the best option but probably isn't feasible. As it is it's pretty much a desert unfortunately.

robp · 15-09-2012 4:52pm

Connacht wrote: »

I know this area very well and spend time up there, but am not an ecologist.
I've heard about this project for a few years now and it has wonderful potential, especially for outdoors 'green' low-impact tourism, like wild camping, hiking, survival skills, etc.
It is a haven of otter, pine marten, red deer, ravens, kestrels, the odd passing eagle and more. There are no red (or grey) squirrels.
However :
First of all, this area is (with very few exceptions) a vast blanket bog, so broadleaf trees wouldn't stand a chance of thriving there. Any comparison with Clonbur (limestone pavement) is of little value, as the terrain is totally different.
IMO if the place is left alone, what will happen is that the conifers will slowly die out, becoming suffocated / drowned by the bog.
Second, Coillte and its sub-contractors continue to clear-fell large tracts of the area, leaving the usual landscape that looks like someone has come along and blanket-bombed the place. I guess I can understand that - they're cutting what they deem to be still feasible.
Third, I suspect the Fisheries people will have a big say in any recreational activity that might take place along the very important river systems in the area.

What I would really love to see is a thinning of the existing conifers. They are so densely planted that there is no light getting in, with resultant no understorey (not even grass) and very low biodiversity, with incredibly few birds. However, I realise that's virtually impossible to achieve. Cutting every second or third tree out of a plantation is impractical and would leave the remaining ones susceptible to windthrow, as their root systems are so shallow.

So while I really look forward to the day the last tree fellers and lorries depart, you shouldn''t think it can be turned into some sort of beautiful native forest of oak, ash, holly, etc. like Killarney NP or Clonbur.

Maybe its impractical to thin the forest that way but maybe they could ringbark 1 in 3 and leave them standing where they are. Alot of critters depend on dead wood.

I know broadleaf wouldn't develop into tall dense forest but surely rowan, birch, and oak in sheltered drier spots would grow as a scrub while wet spots staying more open. Thats the sort of vegetation which grows out in the cutover Born na mona bogs. thats were bog deal and oak comes from also.

magicbastarder · 29-09-2012 10:51pm

i was wondering if ringbarking more than a certain amount of trees might lead to too great a fire risk?

robp · 30-09-2012 3:24pm

magicbastarder wrote: »

i was wondering if ringbarking more than a certain amount of trees might lead to too great a fire risk?

I can't answer that but maybe with all that peat its a big worry.

I just noticed there was press coverage and critical discussion, from Dick Warner. http://www.irishexaminer.com/opinion/columnists/dick-warner/good-and-bad-news-on-forestry-205373.html

THE announcement that Coillte, in conjunction with the National Parks and Wildlife Service, is to develop 4,000 hectares of forestry in north Mayo as a wilderness area for conservation and amenity use is very good news. The land is on the eastern boundary of our newest National Park, around Ballycroy.

The National Park consists of one of the largest areas of unspoilt blanket bog left in western Europe and is also important for the conservation of salmon and sea trout because it contains most of the Owenduff river catchment. What amounts to an expansion of it, which will include much of Nephin Beg mountain, is welcome. Public consultations with local residents and land owners in the Keenagh area are underway.

But there is a background to this story which is not quite so positive. The reason Coillte is doing this is that the forestry in question has become a liability. The 4,000 hectares is planted with low-quality conifers. The cost of felling and extracting the timber in such a remote location would far exceed its market value. The problem is increased because when a plantation like this is clear-felled there is a legal obligation to re-plant it.

For over 100 years the State set annual planting quotas with the laudable aim of re-foresting Ireland and making us self-sufficient for timber. But the economics of forestry are always challenging because you’re planting a crop to be harvested in 40 or 50 years when market conditions are bound to be very different.

And the State has had a tendency to set ambitious planting quotas but to only provide enough money to buy the cheapest land, which was often very remote and not suitable for growing trees. There were also political considerations — state forestry on land that had agricultural potential was extremely unpopular with the electorate.

Many of the trees grew rapidly. This might seem like a competitive advantage but when conifers grow rapidly their annual growth rings are set further apart and this reduces the strength of the timber. Much of the product of Irish forests is only suitable for pulping.

The final nail in the coffin was the increase in global trade which meant timber could be imported cheaply.

A new wilderness area is a lovely idea but Coillte and the National Parks and Wildlife Service will have to come up with an imaginative solution about what to do with a very large number of value-less trees. A forestry plantation doesn’t have a huge amount of conservation value.

cameramonkey · 01-10-2012 2:53pm

Watched a programme about a native Scots pine forest in the Cairngorms on BBC last night. The idea of having a Scots Pine forest is really something. Would these tree be able to survive in this proposed park in Mayo?

Mickeroo · 01-10-2012 3:02pm

cameramonkey wrote: »

Watched a programme about a native Scots pine forest in the Cairngorms on BBC last night. The idea of having a Scots Pine forest is really something. Would these tree be able to survive in this proposed park in Mayo?

I'd imagine so, there's plenty of Scotts Pine in the surrounding area. The only thing is it would cost a lot of money to fell the forestry and replant it with scotts pine and other native species. The more I read about this the more I think Coillte are just leaving the forestry to rot and passing it off as conservation, as if most people will think the forestry actually has any value as a natural habitat, which it doesn't at the moment, apart from maybe cover for the deer in the area.

robp · 01-10-2012 4:16pm

Mickeroo wrote: »

The only thing is it would cost a lot of money to fell the forestry and replant it with scotts pine and other native species. The more I read about this the more I think Coillte are just leaving the forestry to rot and passing it off as conservation, as if most people will think the forestry actually has any value as a natural habitat, which it doesn't at the moment, apart from maybe cover for the deer in the area.

I understand money is in short supply in the country right now but surely grants could be applied for internationally (eg EUs LIFE+) and/or it could be a long term voluntary project. The area involved is no greater than some projects handled by NGOs in Scotland. Even if the progress was very slow the result would be better than doing nothing.

Connacht · 04-10-2012 12:48pm

Quote Mickeroo :
"there's plenty of Scotts Pine in the surrounding area".
There isn't.
Ref the Dick Warner piece above, not for a minute would I think there's any genuine interest in conservation / wilderness creation / ecology / restoration on Coillte's behalf. It's pretty clear, I would suggest, that it's just a PR spin exercise for abandoning a crap plantation.
Getting out there for hiking is still great fun tho !

(sorry, I've no idea how ye do that Quote box thing)

Mickeroo · 04-10-2012 1:06pm

Connacht wrote: »

Quote Mickeroo :
"there's plenty of Scotts Pine in the surrounding area".
There isn't.
Ref the Dick Warner piece above, not for a minute would I think there's any genuine interest in conservation / wilderness creation / ecology / restoration on Coillte's behalf. It's pretty clear, I would suggest, that it's just a PR spin exercise for abandoning a crap plantation.
Getting out there for hiking is still great fun tho !

(sorry, I've no idea how ye do that Quote box thing)

Just click the quote button on my post

I didn't mean to suggest there's a Scott's Pine forest in the area or anything but there's a fair bit of it growing near Mulranny on the achill road, and another large wooded area past achill sound with a lot too.

magicbastarder · 04-10-2012 1:40pm

Connacht wrote: »

It's pretty clear, I would suggest, that it's just a PR spin exercise for abandoning a crap plantation.

one would wonder how many other plantations they have like this; how long ago was ballycroy planted?

robp · 04-10-2012 3:44pm

magicbastarder wrote: »

one would wonder how many other plantations they have like this; how long ago was ballycroy planted?

Started in the 1950s and continued into the 1980s.

I suspect there is a lot of smaller early private plantings also in a poor state.

Whether or not Scot pine would grow there is probably a water table issue. I am guessing the water table has been lowered for the conifers, due to drains /iron pan being broken up. Trees already growing there discourages waterlogging too.

recedite · 04-10-2012 7:42pm

Connacht wrote: »

IMO if the place is left alone, what will happen is that the conifers will slowly die out, becoming suffocated / drowned by the bog....
What I would really love to see is a thinning of the existing conifers. They are so densely planted that there is no light getting in, with resultant no understorey (not even grass) and very low biodiversity, with incredibly few birds. However, I realise that's virtually impossible to achieve. Cutting every second or third tree out of a plantation is impractical and would leave the remaining ones susceptible to windthrow, as their root systems are so shallow.

The windthrow effect tends to happen when they cut away half a plantation. Suddenly the trees that were previously sheltered in the centre find themselves at the edge, exposed to the full force of the wind, and they start falling like dominoes.
If they were thinned out 1 in 3, the stronger edge trees would still be in place. The problem would be more of a logistical and safety one. Without being able to get machinery in, a lot of the felled or ringbarked trees would get caught up in the branches of other trees, creating a hazard. Maybe it could be done by a team equipped with chainsaws and horses.
Scots Pine has a deep taproot that gives it the advantage in these windy situations. Long term it would be good to establish a few groves. In the meantime though, I would keep the Lodgepole or whatever is there. Personally I think this idea that wildlife shuns "non native" trees is well overcooked.

The whole bogs versus trees thing deserves more research. A lot of the mountainsides that are too wet for broadleaf trees now, were once covered in oaks. I've often picked up a piece of wet bog oak and wondered about that. Maybe the climate was a bit warmer, but also the bog seems to hold any rainfall once it gets established, whereas trees dry out the land.

A great project though, regardless of Coilltes reasons for giving up the plantation.

magicbastarder · 04-10-2012 7:58pm

too wet for broadleaf because of soil degradation due to leaching, or just too wet? i've been in both derryclare and glengarriff woods, and both seemed fairly healthy, especially the former.

robp · 05-10-2012 9:47am

magicbastarder wrote: »

too wet for broadleaf because of soil degradation due to leaching, or just too wet? i've been in both derryclare and glengarriff woods, and both seemed fairly healthy, especially the former.

Both are inter related. Work has being done comparing some of the surviving upland woods like Uragh wood in Kerry to non-wooded areas and here is what they found

Oak wood clearance has resulted in changes in soil morphological, physical and chemical properties. Increased effective precipitation and reduction in nutrient cycling has caused greater podzolisation in well drained areas and has resulted in a greater degree of hydromorphism (sic waterlogging) in the poorly drained areas. The accumulation of surface organic material, evident in many of the soils in the cleared area, with or without the development of an iron pan, is a precursor to the formation of blanket peat.

Soil responses to land-use change – a study in south-west Ireland
D.A Cunninghama, E.P Farrella,J.F Collins. 1999

There is a good article on this topic from Scotland http://www.treesforlife.org.uk/forest/ecological/bogwoodland.html

On the otherhand whether planting trees really breaks the cycle is another question.

Alun · 05-10-2012 9:52am

There are a few of what look like attempts at Scots pine plantations in Wicklow, one near Donard springs to mind, but they never seem to grow properly. They're very stunted and the trunks seem to twist and turn and get all tangled up with their neighbours, more like large misshapen shrubs than proper trees.

That hasn't stopped whoever owns them attempting to harvest them though, but boy did they leave a trail of devastation behind them, along with half the 'trees'.

Birdnuts · 05-10-2012 7:36pm

I was talking to a chap that has knowledge of this project and I can tell you there is alot of excitement about it in conservation circles. Currently they are looking into the Black Grouse angle since it would make ideal habitat for this bird. Now currently there is no direct evidence that this bird was ever native but there is alot of "circumstantial" evidence from old texts going back to the 8th centuary. Problem is that historical accounts tended not to differenciate between this bird and the Capercaille which we know was native from remains found in ancient and medieval refuse heaps and pretty definative historical accounts. Alot of work is now going into this with a view to a possible re-introduction once the neccessary definative proof is confirmed.:)

magicbastarder · 05-10-2012 8:20pm

we should clear mayo and release wolves into it.

Birdnuts · 05-10-2012 8:34pm

magicbastarder wrote: »

we should clear mayo and release wolves into it.

Joking aside:p - if Ballycroy NP was joined up with all the BnM and Coillte land in nearby areas like Sheskin, Glenamoy etc. you would have a massive protected area that would certainly open exciting oppurtunaties to creat a real wilderness zone of the type you get on the continent.

Eddie B · 09-10-2012 11:32am

I'm doing a bit of volunteer work around the Bangor trail area at the moment and the first thing i noticed was the total lack of wildlife in the area! Seemingly this is due to the habitat, blanket bog e.t.c, but it seem's such a waste considering the vast area involved!!

recedite · 09-10-2012 2:11pm

The placename Mayo derives from "Plain of the Yew trees".
Archaeology around the Ceide Fields indicates that the area was a pine forest when the first settlers arrived.
A lot of people assume that the barren heather clad mountains we see around Ireland today are the natural ecosystem, but they are often only the result of deforestation followed by intensive sheep grazing.

Birdnuts · 09-10-2012 9:54pm

Eddie B wrote: »

I'm doing a bit of volunteer work around the Bangor trail area at the moment and the first thing i noticed was the total lack of wildlife in the area! Seemingly this is due to the habitat, blanket bog e.t.c, but it seem's such a waste considering the vast area involved!!

The time of year probably doesn't help - most breeding birds leave this type of habitat once the season is over.

robp · 30-10-2012 12:51pm

Oh the potential. I wonder who got this parcel of North Mayo

1,000 acres of Land for sale with Wind Farm potential at Bellacorick, Co. Mayo

http://www.myhome.ie/commercial/brochure/1-000-acres-of-land-for-sale-with-wind-farm-potential-at-bellacorick-co-mayo/1256432

recedite · 31-10-2012 2:47am

There is already a windfarm at Bellacorrick on the worked-out bog. I understand there is a difficulty in getting wind power licences these days due to the inability of the ESB to cope with the fluctuations in supply.
On the subject of mountain windfarms, if combined with mixed woodlands on the lower slopes, a nice income-generating, wildlife-rich ecosystem could develop, notwithstanding some danger to some birds from the turbine blades.

mecksimay · 01-11-2012 10:33am

Eddie B wrote: »

I'm doing a bit of volunteer work around the Bangor trail area at the moment and the first thing i noticed was the total lack of wildlife in the area! Seemingly this is due to the habitat, blanket bog e.t.c, but it seem's such a waste considering the vast area involved!!

On the contrary, Ballycroy National Park and the Nephin Beg Mountain Range is full of wildlife, see http://www.ballycroynationalpark.ie/wildlife.html and http://www.ballycroynationalpark.ie/Habitats.html for more information on what is to be seen.

At this time of year you may be lucky enough to see some Greenland White Fronted Geese!

Eddie B · 01-11-2012 1:19pm

mecksimay wrote: »

On the contrary, Ballycroy National Park and the Nephin Beg Mountain Range is full of wildlife, see http://www.ballycroynationalpark.ie/wildlife.html and http://www.ballycroynationalpark.ie/Habitats.html for more information on what is to be seen.

At this time of year you may be lucky enough to see some Greenland White Fronted Geese!

I'll drop ya up there one of the morning's with your camera! You can post your results on here!!! o and photo's of sheep don't count!!!:D:D:D:D

robp · 01-11-2012 5:12pm

Eddie B wrote: »

I'll drop ya up there one of the morning's with your camera! You can post your results on here!!! o and photo's of sheep don't count!!!:D:D:D:D

I think you are right. The absolute productivity must be pretty darn low even if it still manages to support some very special species. That is probable inevitably but I still argue that a more diverse patchwork of bog and native scrub woodland would attract more.

robp · 12-02-2013 1:02pm

For those interested in Mayo in May there will be a conference on this topic.

Wilderness in a Modified European Landscape: Conference

Date 14 May 2013
Venue Westport, County Mayo

Date: 14th – 16th May 2013

Location: Westport, County Mayo

Coillte (Ireland’s state forest company), in cooperation with the National Parks and Wildlife Service and Mayo County Council, and supported by Pan Parks and Wild Europe, are organising an international conference on – THE POTENTIAL AND CHALLENGES OF DEVELOPING WILDERNESS IN MODIFIED EUROPEAN LANDSCAPES, to be held in Westport, County Mayo, Ireland, on 14th May – 16th May 2013 during Ireland’s Presidency of the Council of the European Union.

The Conference will bring together experts, representing national and international organisations, to share information and exchange ideas on current and possible future approaches to rewilding modified landscapes particularly former plantation forests and other impacted landscapes.

http://www.mountaineering.ie//events/viewdetails.asp?ID=656

whyulittle · 14-03-2013 3:15pm

Ireland's first wilderness project launched

Over 11,000 hectares in the Nephin Beg Range of North West Mayo have been designated as Ireland’s first wilderness area following the signing of a Memorandum of Understanding (MoU) between Coillte and the Department of Arts, Heritage and the Gaeltacht.

The memorandum commits both parties to working together to deliver the wilderness project, which includes forest lands and parts of the Ballycroy National Park

Full story at coillte.ie.

cameramonkey · 14-03-2013 5:27pm

whyulittle wrote: »

Full story at coillte.ie.

Could be an amazing place in a few years.

robp · 14-03-2013 7:18pm

cameramonkey wrote: »

Could be an amazing place in a few years.

Absolutely. I am very grateful for this move. I don't see it as inevitable at all as the site could have been a huge windfarm.

Does anyone know if this sort of pine forest can sustain wild boar? Can wild boar do well in the Scottish Caledonian woods?

cameramonkey · 22-03-2013 3:31pm

Mooney Show on RTE Radio 1 doing a piece on the this today Friday 22 March . Show starts at 3 pm .http://www.rte.ie/radio/
They also have a piece about using willow trees as a water cleansing system.

Eoghan Barra · 15-05-2013 1:08pm

Only just picked up on this now - potentially a very exciting development.

Can it really be true that our island is going to play a part in 'Rewilding Europe'? (See http://www.rewildingeurope.com/)

Or, as some contributors have pointed out, is this likely to be no more than a cynical PR stunt with no real substance - i.e. full of conifers and other non-native species, with no serious attempts to restore native ecosystems or reintroduce more challenging lost species?

The rewilding concept is probably one of the few real hopes for seriously slowing the current losses of biodiversity that are taking place across the world at rates that vary between worrying and catastrophic, according to location. (And which are set to accelerate.) Anyone interested should read Caroline Fraser's excellent book 'Rewilding the World: Dispatches from the Conservation Revolution'.

Only time will tell if those behind the Mayo project are serious about what they're doing from a conservation point of view. But it would be a great pity if Ireland in some way contributes to rendering meaningless the term 'rewilding' by adopting the term without the intention of really following through.

Rewilding entails being very radical in terms of taking landscape-size areas (11,000 hA isn't bad for Ireland), employing conservation and science-based restoration ecology to bring back functioning native ecosystems, and, essentially, developing connectivity in the form of wildlife corridors to other reserves.

The problem is that ecosystems need the full complement of species to function naturally, ranging all the way up to top predators and other 'keystone species'. Ireland's people don't seem ready for that (just look at the challenges involved in reintroducing birds of prey, with frequent poisonings etc.). But if the Nephim Beg project is carried out in a serious way, it may prove to be a very important stepping stone towards developments that have fantastic potential, not just from a biodiversity conservation viewpoint, but also for the economy in terms of ecotourism, currently the fastest growing area in tourism.

I wonder if anyone looking at this is attending the conference taking place in Westport on the subject right now and, if so, how did it go?

robp · 15-05-2013 3:15pm

Eoghan Barra wrote: »

Only just picked up on this now - potentially a very exciting development.

Can it really be true that our island is going to play a part in 'Rewilding Europe'? (See http://www.rewildingeurope.com/)

Or, as some contributors have pointed out, is this likely to be no more than a cynical PR stunt with no real substance - i.e. full of conifers and other non-native species, with no serious attempts to restore native ecosystems or reintroduce more challenging lost species?

The rewilding concept is probably one of the few real hopes for seriously slowing the current losses of biodiversity that are taking place across the world at rates that vary between worrying and catastrophic, according to location. (And which are set to accelerate.) Anyone interested should read Caroline Fraser's excellent book 'Rewilding the World: Dispatches from the Conservation Revolution'.

Only time will tell if those behind the Mayo project are serious about what they're doing from a conservation point of view. But it would be a great pity if Ireland in some way contributes to rendering meaningless the term 'rewilding' by adopting the term without the intention of really following through.

Rewilding entails being very radical in terms of taking landscape-size areas (11,000 hA isn't bad for Ireland), employing conservation and science-based restoration ecology to bring back functioning native ecosystems, and, essentially, developing connectivity in the form of wildlife corridors to other reserves.

The problem is that ecosystems need the full complement of species to function naturally, ranging all the way up to top predators and other 'keystone species'. Ireland's people don't seem ready for that (just look at the challenges involved in reintroducing birds of prey, with frequent poisonings etc.). But if the Nephim Beg project is carried out in a serious way, it may prove to be a very important stepping stone towards developments that have fantastic potential, not just from a biodiversity conservation viewpoint, but also for the economy in terms of ecotourism, currently the fastest growing area in tourism.

I wonder if anyone looking at this is attending the conference taking place in Westport on the subject right now and, if so, how did it go?

I would argue that much of the Irish uplands are unnaturally open due to sheep and more recently by deer. Only in a few locations like on lake islands can we see how adaptable native trees are. Here is a classic example in Galway.
island-of-trees-in-a-bare-connemara-landscape-pierre-leclerc.jpg

island-of-trees-in-a-bare-connemara-landscape-pierre-leclerc.jpg

Excluding sheep from several thousand hectares will be a very interesting project and the most important aspect of the project in terms of understanding natural process of the Irish landscape but progress will be slow as so little native trees exist in the area. IMO the two main challenges both depend on EU funding applications. These are :

Controlling the rhododendron infestation
Establishing sufficient rowan, sally, birch, aspen shrub across the site and their protection from deer.

Eoghan Barra · 15-05-2013 6:23pm

robp wrote: »

Excluding sheep from several thousand hectares will be a very interesting project and the most important aspect of the project in terms of understanding natural process of the Irish landscape but progress will be slow as so little native trees exist in the area. IMO the two main challenges both depend on EU funding applications. These are :

Controlling the rhododendron infestation
Establishing sufficient rowan, sally, birch, aspen shrub across the site and their protection from deer.

Preventing overgrazing in order to encourage natural regeneration of woodland, or - where there are insufficient mature wild native trees to act as seed sources - replanting, is certainly a very worthwhile exercise. So is eliminating (a more appropriate word, where it can be done, than 'controlling') rhododendron and other non-native invasives wherever they are found.

I mentioned the Rewilding Europe project in relation to the Nephim Beg because of the following:

Bill Murphy, Wild Nephin Project Manager said “This is an important day not only for Ireland but also for Europe as this agreement is a key step along the way towards the goal of setting aside 1,000,000 ha of wilderness in Europe by 2020. Ireland is in the forefront of looking at modified landscapes, the challenges or rewilding and how these can contribute to wilderness in Europe”.

(http://www.coillte.ie/aboutcoillte/news/article/view/irelands-first-wilderness-project-launched/)

Given this type of language, I do think that it is very important that the Nephim Beg project be conducted in a genuinely ambitious manner that matches that language, rather than becoming just a 'lets just borrow these catchy terms (rewilding and wilderness) and stick them on a half-arsed project that never amounts to much more than fencing the sheep out of a reasonably large area.'

I should stress however, that I will be delighted if this does become something really serious, as this is definitely the way to go in conservation terms. And if Ireland does show itself to be leading the way in that regard then those responsible should be very loudly applauded (and, more importantly, emulated elsewhere).

robp · 15-05-2013 6:48pm

Eoghan Barra wrote: »

Preventing overgrazing in order to encourage natural regeneration of woodland, or - where there are insufficient mature wild native trees to act as seed sources - replanting, is certainly a very worthwhile exercise. So is eliminating (a more appropriate word, where it can be done, than 'controlling') rhododendron and other non-native invasives wherever they are found.

I mentioned the Rewilding Europe project in relation to the Nephim Beg because of the following:

Bill Murphy, Wild Nephin Project Manager said “This is an important day not only for Ireland but also for Europe as this agreement is a key step along the way towards the goal of setting aside 1,000,000 ha of wilderness in Europe by 2020. Ireland is in the forefront of looking at modified landscapes, the challenges or rewilding and how these can contribute to wilderness in Europe”.

(http://www.coillte.ie/aboutcoillte/news/article/view/irelands-first-wilderness-project-launched/)

Given this type of language, I do think that it is very important that the Nephim Beg project be conducted in a genuinely ambitious manner that matches that language, rather than becoming just a 'lets just borrow these catchy terms (rewilding and wilderness) and stick them on a half-arsed project that never amounts to much more than fencing the sheep out of a reasonably large area.'

I should stress however, that I will be delighted if this does become something really serious, as this is definitely the way to go in conservation terms. And if Ireland does show itself to be leading the way in that regard then those responsible should be very loudly applauded (and, more importantly, emulated elsewhere).

There seems to be efforts to encourage osprey breeding and possibly re introducing black grouse and red squirrel. I think apex predators is a little over ambitious. Connectivity is good idea but I am not sure what could be connected to it part from Seskin and the other big plantations in the area. What else would make it stand out as a serious attempt? Personally I would consider transplanting some of our endangered relict wood ant populations there.

Eoghan Barra · 15-05-2013 7:37pm

robp wrote: »

There seems to be efforts to encourage osprey breeding and possibly re introducing black grouse and red squirrel. I think apex predators is a little over ambitious. Connectivity is good idea but I am not sure what could be connected to it part from Seskin and the other big plantations in the area. What else would make it stand out as a serious attempt? Personally I would consider transplanting some of our endangered relict wood ant populations there.

Reintroducing osprey etc. is certainly a good start, and I agree that top predators would definitely be premature at this point in time. However there are other species that would not be viewed as negatively, for e.g., red deer (once enough trees have had enough time to 'get away'), beaver, pine marten and so on. Species such as these could be reintroduced based on what is deemed by biologists to be most suitable to the habitats that will be created or improved.

As regards connectivity, I must admit I am not familiar with Nephim Beg, and it may be that there isn't much in the vicinity with which it could be connected, I don't know. This is perhaps an aspect that might come into play more if other similar areas develop in the future. What has been found however, is that the traditional 'reserve' type approach to conservation simply doesn't work (though it is, of course, better than nothing), as 'islands' of biodiversity that remain unconnected will become impoverished over time, in terms of ecosystems, species diversity and on a genetic level within species.

I think what is important here is the attitude with which it is done, and in particular which goals are prioritized: is conservation and restoration of genuine natural habitat, based on the most up-to-date scientific research, a fundamental aim (it doesn't sound as if that is the case if beech and conifers are to be part of the species mix), or are terms like rewilding and wilderness just catchphrases that will be bandied about in an empty way?

The Scottish 'Trees for Life' project (I think a previous poster already mentioned this) should be looked to for inspiration here, as something which has been underway for a couple of decades in very similar terrain with fantastic results. They have been proceeding in a very ambitious, while at the same time realistic, way

robp · 17-05-2013 9:41am

Eoghan Barra wrote: »

Reintroducing osprey etc. is certainly a good start, and I agree that top predators would definitely be premature at this point in time. However there are other species that would not be viewed as negatively, for e.g., red deer (once enough trees have had enough time to 'get away'), beaver, pine marten and so on. Species such as these could be reintroduced based on what is deemed by biologists to be most suitable to the habitats that will be created or improved.

As regards connectivity, I must admit I am not familiar with Nephim Beg, and it may be that there isn't much in the vicinity with which it could be connected, I don't know. This is perhaps an aspect that might come into play more if other similar areas develop in the future. What has been found however, is that the traditional 'reserve' type approach to conservation simply doesn't work (though it is, of course, better than nothing), as 'islands' of biodiversity that remain unconnected will become impoverished over time, in terms of ecosystems, species diversity and on a genetic level within species.

I think what is important here is the attitude with which it is done, and in particular which goals are prioritized: is conservation and restoration of genuine natural habitat, based on the most up-to-date scientific research, a fundamental aim (it doesn't sound as if that is the case if beech and conifers are to be part of the species mix), or are terms like rewilding and wilderness just catchphrases that will be bandied about in an empty way?

The Scottish 'Trees for Life' project (I think a previous poster already mentioned this) should be looked to for inspiration here, as something which has been underway for a couple of decades in very similar terrain with fantastic results. They have been proceeding in a very ambitious, while at the same time realistic, way

Red deer and Pine marten are already present. I don't think beaver could be introduced as there is no evidence it lived in Ireland after the last Ice Age. There is the concern it would be detrimental to salmon stocks also. Leaving aside big predators like bear and wolf there are not so many mammals native to Ireland that have become extinct, maybe the wild boar and the wild cat but wild Nephin may be too small a block of habitat for those. Yet there are plenty of bird and insect species which are presently missing in Ireland. Beech isn't present to my knowledge but Lodgepole pine is present so it seems it will be allowed to continue growing there. I have mixed feeling about Lodgepole pine but at least in theory it could analogous to Scots pine which is native and the red squirrels will like it.

According to twitter presentations from the conference will be uploaded on to the Coillte website.

recedite · 17-05-2013 3:36pm

robp wrote: »

I don't think beaver could be introduced as there is no evidence it lived in Ireland after the last Ice Age. ..............there are not so many mammals native to Ireland that have become extinct, maybe the wild boar and the wild cat but wild Nephin may be too small a block of habitat for those. Yet there are plenty of bird and insect species which are presently missing in Ireland. Beech isn't present to my knowledge.

Why do you want to introduce birds and insects from outside, but not the more high profile species that might attract tourists and hence revenue to sustain the park? I'd like to see beavers, boar, even elk. I take it you are against beech, but an extensive and expensive program of planting broadleaf forest would probably be desirable. Also some official wilderness trails and campsites and/or lodges. Otherwise its just a piece of poor quality land, where Coillte find timber extraction to be uneconomical.

Eoghan Barra · 17-05-2013 4:10pm

robp wrote: »

Red deer and Pine marten are already present. I don't think beaver could be introduced as there is no evidence it lived in Ireland after the last Ice Age. There is the concern it would be detrimental to salmon stocks also. Leaving aside big predators like bear and wolf there are not so many mammals native to Ireland that have become extinct, maybe the wild boar and the wild cat but wild Nephin may be too small a block of habitat for those. Yet there are plenty of bird and insect species which are presently missing in Ireland. Beech isn't present to my knowledge but Lodgepole pine is present so it seems it will be allowed to continue growing there. I have mixed feeling about Lodgepole pine but at least in theory it could analogous to Scots pine which is native and the red squirrels will like it.

According to twitter presentations from the conference will be uploaded on to the Coillte website.

If non-native tree species like lodgepole pine (from North America) are left in significant quantities it will seriously devalue any claims that this is anything to do with restoration of natural habitat.

Wiki says that beaver became extinct in Ireland 'in historic times', though what the basis for this statement is I don't know. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fauna_of_Ireland). You are right that if there isn't conclusive evidence for their having been here since the ice age it would probably be wrong to introduce them. I wouldn't be so concerned about possible effects on Salmon; people need to get over thinking that every resource is there purely for their exploitation.

Good to know that red deer and pine marten are already present. Lynx is another species that has been verified as present in historic times, though Ireland is probably not ready for their reintroduction at present. Wild cat and wild boar, as you point out, would be good contenders - 11,000hA is probably big enough. Biologists would need to make these decisions based on what is possible in terms of existing habitat, habitat that will be restored or recreated and, last but not least, realpolitik.

But I repeat what I said before, fencing out sheep, while a positive step, does not constitute rewilding or wilderness creation.

robp · 18-05-2013 10:57am

recedite wrote: »

Why do you want to introduce birds and insects from outside, but not the more high profile species that might attract tourists and hence revenue to sustain the park? I'd like to see beavers, boar, even elk. I take it you are against beech, but an extensive and expensive program of planting broadleaf forest would probably be desirable. Also some official wilderness trails and campsites and/or lodges. Otherwise its just a piece of poor quality land, where Coillte find timber extraction to be uneconomical.

I think the most important thing is to create an area with characteristic Irish wildlife, plants and animals that people will feel is authentic. I think one could make the case for boar if you could ensure they won't enter the farmland to the east but elk and beaver are probably not native and if you introduce non natives you will risk creating an overgrown Fota Park. Their constructing trails and lean-tos but I am not sure about lodges. Perhaps one of the most impressive commitments to the wilderness ethic is the possibility they will remove pre-existing bridges on the Coillte roads there.

Mickeroo · 18-05-2013 12:26pm

Keeping the sheep out won't be easy I imagine, I'm wouldnt be surprised if plenty in the area still think that they have commonage rights even though the land is state owned?

robp · 18-05-2013 6:11pm

Mickeroo wrote: »

Keeping the sheep out won't be easy I imagine, I'm wouldnt be surprised if plenty in the area still think that they have commonage rights even though the land is state owned?

Too right. Also sheep don't care who owns the land. Apparently this is problem in Killarney where sheep enter illegally.

robp · 24-05-2013 10:58am

Some of the conference presentations are now available on the Coillte website.

whyulittle · 02-01-2014 4:53pm

Ear to the Ground doing a piece on this tonight.

robp · 03-01-2014 3:49pm

whyulittle wrote: »

Ear to the Ground doing a piece on this tonight.

I though they overdid the rewilding jargon. I also felt the locals interviewed were a bit unfair. I completely sympathise with them and I agree efforts are needed to give local opportunities but Wild Nephin is one of the few viable options for the land. Forestry is not profitable. Sheep farming offers little. I have no doubt Wild Nephin will put the region on the map even though it won't attract legions.

Additional its not just about local jobs even though that is an important issue. whatever use has to serve the national interest as the land was purchased with taxpayer money not local money.

Wild Nephin

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